Bullying, damaging or helpful?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

That is not saying that it can, but it will.

And no, why should I go and spend money to prove nothing is wrong with me just so I can prove someone on an internet forum wrong?

No. Did you read the study? I linked to it.

What that is saying is that verbal abuse DOES leave a structural imprint on the developing brain.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

http://www.education.com/reference/arti ... er/?page=2

That's from www.education.com.

Relevant things to quote:

Memories of childhood teasing are associated with high rates of depression, social anxiety, pathological perfectionism, and greater neuroticism in adulthood.

When you look at the content of how adults describe their childhood victimization experiences, it does appear that over time many victims report a reduction in their hurt feelings (for example, less unhappiness, decreased shame).

Yet, for those who consider the bullying to be extremely painful, the troubling feelings continue with reported long-term negative effects on both personality and attitudes. In short, childhood bullying is a highly memorable experience and recollections of these events show no evidence of forgetting.

Researchers have noticed that, although with time, the memory of being bullied and the pain associated with it decrease, the experience is never forgotten.

Furthermore:

For those who are bullied...

One researcher to address this question is Dan Olweus who followed a small group of his Norwegian sample (15 victims, 56 non-victims, all males; 1993) and found that being victimized in grades 6 and 9 could be linked to greater depression and lower self-esteem at 23 years of age.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

http://www.aaets.org/article204.htm <--- written by Mark Dombeck, Ph.D.

That article addresses the long term (lasting) of bullying.

There are two ugly outcomes that stem from learning to view yourself as a less than desirable, incapable individual. The first ugly outcome is that it becomes more likely that you will become increasingly susceptible to becoming depressed and/or angry and/or bitter. Being bullied teaches you that you are undesirable, that you are not safe in the world, and (when it is dished out by forces that are physically superior to yourself) that you are relatively powerless to defend yourself. When you are forced, again and again, to contemplate your relative lack of control over the bullying process, you are being set up for Learned Helplessness (e.g., where you come to believe that you can't do anything to change your ugly situation even if that isn't true), which in turn sets you up for hopelessness and depression.

At the same time, you may be learning that you are helpless and hopeless, you are also learning how you are seen by bullies, which is to say, you are learning that you are seen by others as weak, pathetic, and a loser. And, by virtue of the way that identity tends to work, you are being set up to believe that these things the bullies are saying about you are true.

It would be great if the average person was possessed of unshakable self-confidence, but this just isn't how identity works. Identity is a social process. Other people contribute to it. Particularly when people are young and have not yet survived a few of life's trials, it is difficult for people to know who they are and what they are made of. Much of what passes for identity in the young (and in the older too) is actually a kind of other-confidence, which is to say that many people's self-confidence is continually shored up by those around them telling them in both overt and subtle ways that they are good, worthy people. This is one of the reasons people like to belong to groups – it helps them to feel good about themselves. Bullying teaches people that they are explicitly not part of groups; that they are outcasts and outsiders. It is hard to doubt the reality of being an outcast and an outsider when you have been beaten or otherwise publicly humiliated. It takes an exceptionally confident (or otherwise well-supported) person to not internalize bullies' negative messages and begin bullying yourself by holding yourself to the same standards that bullies are applying to you and finding yourself a failure. In other words, it is rather easy for bullying victims to note that they have been beaten up and then to start thinking of themselves as weak, no-good, worthless, pathetic, and incompetent. These are the sorts of thoughts that lead to depression, or, if they are combined with revenge fantasies, to anger and rage feelings.

...the second ugly outcome unfolds more slowly over time. Having a wounded self-concept makes it harder for you to believe in yourself, and when you have difficulty believing in yourself, you will tend to have a harder time persevering through difficult situations and challenging circumstances. Deficits in academic performance can easily occur when bullying victims succumb to depression or otherwise become demoralized. They certainly also occur when victims ditch school to avoid bullies. The deficits themselves are not the real issue. The real issue is that if deficits occur for too long or become too pronounced, the affected children can lose out on opportunities for advancement and further study, and ultimately, employment. I've read retrospective studies where people report having left school early so as to avoid continued bullying, and this of course will have altered and limited the job prospects they have available to them as adults. Leaving school may be a dramatic (if occasionally realistic) example of how early bullying can affect one's life, but there are surely other ways that anger or depression caused by bullying harms and developmentally delays people's progress.

Walls of text, sorry, but they pretty much surmise what I've been positing in this thread for the last 4 pages.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The more amusing thing is that defensiveness is, of course, a defense mechanism to shield from, say, mental torment.
He's self-evidently weak under his own definition, because it is quite clear we're affecting him. =T

Oh no, you are most certainly not getting to me. Don't think that you are.

http://www.education.com/reference/article/Ref_What_Happens_Over/?page=2

That's from http://www.education.com.

Relevant things to quote:


Researchers have noticed that, although with time, the memory of being bullied and the pain associated with it decrease, the experience is never forgotten.

Furthermore:

Yes, it can link to depression and whatnot. But it does not always, which is the point I am trying to make.
In regards to the whole "it is never forgotten" thing, I don't forget much things at all. Of course I am going to remember the bullying, I have a good memory. I also remember everything that happened around that.
All things are forgotten eventually. Bullying will surely be a bolder memory, but to me it is not that big of a deal. It was part of my life and I have to accept that.

And we have been saying to you that your personal anecdote, although 'compelling' to you, is not a sustainable claim. You said words can't hurt, and the truth is that yes, they do and their effects are lasting. Being 'weak' or 'strong' isn't either a proper way to categorize since it is well known that anyone can be a victim of bullying. Peer reviewed articles and studies stand as background, solid, for that.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

And we have been saying to you that your personal anecdote, although 'compelling' to you, is not a sustainable claim. You said words can't hurt, and the truth is that yes, they do and their effects are lasting. Being 'weak' or 'strong' isn't either a proper way to categorize since it is well known that anyone can be a victim of bullying. Peer reviewed articles and studies stand as background, solid, for that.

I already admitted my first position on "words cannot hurt" is wrong.

Yes, anyone can be a victim of bullying. Strong and weak people can be victims. The strong people deal with it and take it on the chin, the weak people either become stronger or stay weak and let it get to them.

See, that last part is what makes this whole circular argument of yours total piffle. A strong person can still suffer lasting damage from having being bullied.

I can't help but think that you just want to remain willfully ignorant of this, and that no matter how many sources are provided to you, you already made your mind. And oh what a narrow minded approach it has been.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

See, that last part is what makes this whole circular argument of yours total piffle. A strong person can still suffer lasting damage from having being bullied.

I can't help but think that you just want to remain willfully ignorant of this, and that no matter how many sources are provided to you, you already made your mind. And oh what a narrow minded approach it has been.

If you are verbally bullied in the sense that you are ganged up on 24/7, then you don't have to be weak for it to get to you. You are just very strong if it doesn't
If you are verbally bullied moderately, 1 or 2 people regularly insulting you, and it gets to you - You are mentally weak.

Is that a more precise definition for you?

Alright, here we go. Being weak, strong, black, white, Latino, Asian, smart, pretty, average, slow, have a name that is considered 'funny', and a myriad of other adjectives, can make you the target of bullies. Intensity of bullying may vary, but there are effects from it nevertheless. These can be short termed or long term. Either way, they both cause harm, regardless of perceptions of 'weakness' or 'strength'.

Is that clear or must I simplify this more than it already is?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Yes, but that was merely just an extension to my main argument - That bullying is not always damaging. I stand firm in my point there. It is not always damaging.

It isn't always severely damaging. But whether it is damaging or not has no bearing on whether somebody is 'weak' or not.
Even the strongest can fall. Implying that they fell because they are weak belittles their pain, and prevents them from properly seeking the help they need to recover, and so makes the situation worse for everyone.

They always suffer damage. However, the damage can be either short or long termed. Or it can be both.

As for the last part, I agree.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If you read a few posts back, I have already said that "I may visit a psychiatrist later in life, but I am very confident I don't have it"
Not 100% certain, more like 99% certain.

Mental trauma is nowhere near as big a deal as cancer, so I am in no big hurry to get checked out, especially as it is unnoticed, even including by myself.

People commit suicide because of mental trauma. Seems pretty serious to me.

He'll probably tell you that they commit suicide because they were weak.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

People commit suicide because of mental trauma. Seems pretty serious to me.

I feel no mental trauma, and have no such thoughts, thus it is not a big deal in my case and I am in no hurry to get myself checked out.

He'll probably tell you that they commit suicide because they were weak.

Perhaps you should read the last few pages over, you will see that I have changed my position on that quite clearly.

So you have finally accepted that it is not a matter of perceptions of weakness or strength? And that everyone can be a victim of bullying?

If so, bravo. Quite the improvement from your original stance. This doesn't happen often on NSG.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I haven't had any issues for years and years, it isn't going to change in the blink of an eye. If it did get worse, it would deteriorate over time - And I would notice.

Question: Do you any problems in your life, at all? Have you ever had a nightmare, forgotten to check the mail, or were snappish/rude to somebody when they were just trying to be nice? Any problems (even minor) that don't seem to have a clear and defined reason behind them, things that just seem to happen? If so, please tell. Not trying to be intrusive; hopefully, you'll see where I'm going in a moment.

If I may... He has said he doesn't feel that he's traumatized. Trying to psycho-analyze him in this thread is, IMO, not the best thing to do.

If you're interested and you have the proper credentials to, perhaps you and Itanica should to take this to TG. Some information is best when not divulged in an open forum.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

If I may... He has said he doesn't feel that he's traumatized. Trying to psycho-analyze him in this thread is, IMO, not the best thing to do.

If you're interested and you have the proper credentials to, perhaps you and Itanica should to take this to TG. Some information is best when not divulged in an open forum.

Fair enough. I'll just say that entire fields of psychology revolve around drawing connections between external behaviors/markers and the subconscious mind. The subconscious, as you know, does not overtly communicate with the conscious, rational mind. Thus, even if your subconscious is deeply and irreversibly scarred by your experiences with bullying, your conscious mind will adamantly insist otherwise, as it is now.

Oh, no doubt. Our minds are icebergs. The tip may present one face while the deeper levels hide terrible secrets we don't want to consciously admit. It is a coping mechanism.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Oh, no doubt. Our minds are icebergs. The tip may present one face while the deeper levels hide terrible secrets we don't want to consciously admit. It is a coping mechanism.

That's what I'm trying to demonstrate to Itanica, who adamantly insists that he is NOT scarred by his experiences with bullying. However, he simply refuses to wrap his head around the fact that, no matter which way he cuts it, he's not really even remotely qualified to tell us how damaged/scarred he is or isn't.

Yes, I see your point. And it is a valid one. At least there was some improvement with him acknowledging some points and amending his initial stance about 'words not being harmful' and the whole 'weakness' argument.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Yes, I see your point. And it is a valid one. At least there was some improvement with him acknowledging some points and amending his initial stance about 'words not being harmful' and the whole 'weakness' argument.

I'm hoping that, by elucidating how deeply subconscious trauma can be, he will understand that there's no possible way he can definitively prove to me (short of resurrecting Freud and having a cup of coffee with him) that there is absolutely no portion of his mind that did not experience trauma as a consequence of verbal bullying, and, by extension of his logic, a possibility of his own weakness.

I take it you're either a student of psychology or are already well versed on the subject of psychotherapy (as in studying psychiatry or some other related field). Your handling of the subject seems to indicate such.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I take it you're either a student of psychology or are already well versed on the subject of psychotherapy (as in studying psychiatry or some other related field). Your handling of the subject seems to indicate such.

I've taken college-level courses on the topic with a certain level of success. Also, as a History major, I've studied Freudian theory as a movement of resistance against the cold, calculating efficiency of capitalism, rationalism, and Industrialization. So, I wouldn't call myself an expert, but I do have a little background on existing literature on the topic -- enough to explain the rudimentary basics behind the Freudian theory.

My question is, though, with all the advancements in the psychology field, is it an advisable thing to use Freud's theories of the subconscious?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

My question is, though, with all the advancements in the psychology field, is it an advisable thing to use Freud's theories of the subconscious?

I was not trying to actually diagnose a condition, simply to raise the possibility that a condition might exist that the conscious mind is entirely and utterly unaware of. Also, to be frank, I'm not well-versed in modern psychotherapy, but I do know that many modern psychologists use similar systems of psychoanalysis. Thus, while the original Freudian interpretation of psychology (i.e.: if you like engaging in oral sex, you weren't breastfed enough) is little more than a mind-exercise today, plenty of psychologists still lend weight to the power of the subconscious mind and its role in shaping how we perceive, behave, and think.

I was merely curious.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I was merely curious.

What's your take on it? Not Freudian theory itself, but the role of psychoanalysis (the modern kind that's evolved since Freud, not the original stuff Freud came up with) and its possibilities as a form of therapy?

Having gone through psychotherapy myself, I think it's a promising way of helping people that have gone through traumatic experiences to cope with the effects, without having to relay on medication (in case, of course, that the medication isn't truly needed- in some cases, it is necessary to medicate).

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Having gone through psychotherapy myself, I think it's a promising way of helping people that have gone through traumatic experiences to cope with the effects, without having to relay on medication (in case, of course, that the medication isn't truly needed- in some cases, it is necessary to medicate).

Interesting. I've participated in several psychological studies (both for academic credit and for money) at my university, and some of them involved rudimentary psychotherapy. I believe very strongly in the power of the subconscious, and agree with you on its feasibility as a form of therapy. Although, obviously, since psychotherapists often take larger leaps to reach their conclusions, I think development as a field of study, as well as mainstream approval, will be slow.

I agree.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Bullying makes recruiting so much easier for us Nazis!

People who have been bullied usually can't wait to get in a uniform to make them feel powerful. In fact, some of our best leaders and race theorists have been men who were bullied as children. Even the Fuehrer himself!

From a non-Nazi point of view, it kind of sucks, though.

[Nazi Flower Power]

Sorry....but whether it's here...on "some FB game" or in real-life...the issue is the same. Maybe next time, whoever made this topic open would choose a less inflammatory topic, as I have PLENTY of reason to be preachy and hostile.

If you discuss people bullying you through that game, I have no problem with it. I was referring to your discussion on the politics of the game.

I 2nd this motion to get back on topic.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I'm more into removing humanity's problems than trying to correct them.

You will love the Nazi Party, then! We are committed to removing humanity's problems!

[New Emmerian Coalition]

Being bullied for most of my life, I realize that some schools do absolutely nothing once they've had enough of you. When I was bullied, and don't call me a snitch, I used to tell the VP. He left. Before that, I fought back at another school, lost all my respect, and was put on ISS probation. I felt it wasn't worth it. Big mistake, as in middle school, school became HELL. There was no one who I felt understood me. Yes, it did inspire me to take ju jutsu, but due to my massive asthma problem, I had to quit, and lost all my sense of honor. I became so hurt, I hid behind games. Games were my life. Mortal kombat, Marathon Durandel/infinity, just the fact that you could destroy the bad guys in a video game, made you feel better. It was an escape. Reality was slowly killing me. I still have trouble with terrible people, although at this age, it has gone down much, and I usually don't care. In fact, soon, I will become a police officer, but until then, I have to deal with everything. So, to answer your question, I will first answer with another question. Was it helpful that I grew up helpless and only when I could aquire a lawful job could I feel better? No. Bullying is extremely damaging, and it has lead some to suicide. Heroics like young Casey (I'm sure you've seen the youtube video) fight back. But not all kids have the fortune of being praised as a hero for fighting back. I do agree with some that if self defense was perfectly okay in school, brawls would open up all the time with both victims stating it was in self defense. When I was a child, self defense was deemed assault by my schools. And I hope it is not so nowadays.

[New Heathera]

This is a very interesting topic indeed. I too am a long-term victim of bullying (even death threats), and I must say that without my experiances I wouldn't be today such a strong advocator of anti-bullying and defense of minority beliefs and backgrounds.

But then again, without bullying I wouldn't be a "who needs prison when you have a firing squad" justice maniac either. You be the judge.

[New Heathera]

Bullying makes recruiting so much easier for us Nazis!

People who have been bullied usually can't wait to get in a uniform to make them feel powerful. In fact, some of our best leaders and race theorists have been men who were bullied as children. Even the Fuehrer himself!

From a non-Nazi point of view, it kind of sucks, though.

Actually, bullying has had an indirect effect of me desiring all nazis to be rounded up and purified by fire. It's all part of one of the "darker" effects bullying has had on me. I'm more into removing humanity's problems than trying to correct them.

[New Heathera]

This is disgusting. I'm glad to hear this bastard's ideas aren't accepted, I lost twelve friends total in my high school years to bullying, it was abso-fucking-lutely bad, not one person left that school without bullying affecting them negatively in some way.

I myself developed a slight drinking habit.

I pisses me the fuck off to hear anybody shedding good light on something as bad as bullying, even if your one little experience may have had some positive output, you still didn't escape unscathed, and this thread, the fact you even have thoughts that bullying can have positive effects, means you were hurt worse than you think.

I have a feeling you didn't bother reading the OP's whole post, or really any of it. In the OP's case, and a little bit in my case, it has helped in some way. Maybe not to you, but it does have unintended gains. Sometimes you have to be a victim of abuse to stand up against the abuse of others.

[New Heathera]

Bullying is systemic, malignant, and deliberate.
I think you're getting bullying confused with intermittent teasing.

Hmm, possibly a little bit. Anyways I really don't think bullying is that much of an issue. Maybe if I have a child that is bullied, but until then meh. Man up and deal it. Grin and bear it.

Have YOU ever been a long term bully victim?