Bullying, damaging or helpful?

[IshCong]

Well, I'm glad it matters once it affects you personally.
It's a lot easier to say 'grin and bear it' when:
1: You've never experienced it.
2: You aren't ostracized from an entire community, and systematically tormented physically, psychologically, and sometimes sexually for a period of years.
3: Are fully capable of finding persons willing to help you with your problems rather than say "man up".

Hey now, he actually has the same problem I had, so lay off the facepalm.

What, that you don't care until it happens to affect you? I facepalm at people who claim something only matters if it happens to affect them, and then make things harder for those it does affect.

[IshCong]

Because:
1: Not everyone happens to function like you.
2: Victims often get insulted more for reacting with anger, or else are further ignored by adults because they're always angry.
3: You can only stay angry so long. Try keeping it up for years. Eventually, it just crushes the willpower. Especially when everyone around you isn't paying attention, and resorts to 'man up'.

For someone who was so open to making the comparison between my character on Nations..and Elvis...you sound enlightened here. I have to wonder if you suffer from split personality?

Nobody ever likened your character to Elvis, certainly not I.
Noel likened the Harvey Impersonators to Elvis Impersonators.

EDIT: Heck, I never even commented in the thread you're referring to. But isn't this derailing again?

[IshCong]

You really haven't experienced true bullying.

It hurts.

To the core.

Yeah, it does. It hurts. And you become a hell of a lot better of a person for it. Don't get me wrong, It is terrible, But what you gain from it is far more valuable than smashed feelings, bruises, blood, and gaining the status as a social pariah.

Unless...you gain nothing and only come out as a mentally scarred, physically broken shadow of a person due to years of systematic and systemic mental/physical/sexual abuse. Which happens a lot.

[IshCong]

Nobody ever likened your character to Elvis, certainly not I.
Noel likened the Harvey Impersonators to Elvis Impersonators.

EDIT: Heck, I never even commented in the thread you're referring to. But isn't this derailing again?

Maybe it is...but at least here, your buddies won't come in and gang up on me like they do in Nations. Here...it's just you and me.

I still have zero idea what you're talking about, but conversing about it further in this thread is probably a derailment. *shrugs*
Can always TG me about it.

[IshCong]

Pfft.

Use your fists. And your elbows, knees, feet, forehead, teeth, maybe some bats if you want. Worked for me.

Well, I'm sure that won't spiral into a destructive cycle of repetitive physical violence.
And I'm equally sure all of the victims of bullies are fully capable of fighting off their more numerous, more physically dominant bullies. *nods*

[IshCong]

Unless you gain nothing. Because you're weak minded idiot who let them break you.

Sexual abuse I'm not saying anything about it. I know nothing of that.

Lol. So ITG.

A lot of that in this thread, I've noticed.

[IshCong]

'Playful' bullying with the intent to be funny or friendly doesn't seem to be what the thread is about. That's not really bullying at all. Bullying is the systemic mental/emotional/physical abuse of a person over a period of time, with the intent to harm.

No, they're not. They're connected directly, and can't really be separated. What happens to the body winds up affecting the mind, since the mind is the place where everything is experienced in the first place. You 'feel' in your mind.



Okay, then what are you saying? By all means, explain it.

I have said this before and I will say it again. Physical Bullying can be helpful.

No, it's not. You haven't actually shown that it is, either.

[IshCong]

Well, I'm sure that won't spiral into a destructive cycle of repetitive physical violence.
And I'm equally sure all of the victims of bullies are fully capable of fighting off their more numerous, more physically dominant bullies. *nods*

Awesome then! Fist fights are better than gunfights.

YEAH! VIGILANTE JUSTICE! MOB RULE!
How about...no? How about we not encourage a system that serves only to destroy in a social Darwinistic convulsion?

[IshCong]

Brava! That guy has NO IDEA how wrong he really is. I'm not a fully 'better' person for the bullying I suffered. Now, if I even feel that I'm being bullied in the slightest...I react.....BADLY

You never learned a greater respect for compassion and humanity? You never learned greater coping skills? Never learned to stand the hell up for yourself? You never learned to shrug off hate? Never learned self respect? Never learned

Boy, I guess you people just let it happen and never thought about it again.

Are you telling me that you didn't try to change your world? Never tried to take control of a situation? Maybe you deserved it if you didn't try to help yourself.

Blaming the victims. Gotta love it.
Surprisingly, not everyone is a masochist. And being bullied into despair and defeatism does not mean you deserve it.

[IshCong]

No, it's not. You haven't actually shown that it is, either.

Okay, we have a case of minor bullying. The bullying stops when it prompts a beneficial change in the person. We have a major case of bullying. It persists no matter what happens, it eventually becomes more than physical bullying but before that it is clear that this was not a beneficial case.

Do we see why the can is important?

Bullying doesn't just 'stop' though, and that 'beneficial change' is so far beyond 'not guaranteed' that I can't even come up with a phrase for it. It's like, the planet of "Not Likely" in the system of "Rarely Happens" in the galaxy of "Not Guaranteed".
That's the whole point. You keep on constructing unrealistic cases that support this, but aren't substantiated in the actual real world. You're building more and more strawmen to support your argument, but that's what it all is. Straw.

[IshCong]

YEAH! VIGILANTE JUSTICE! MOB RULE!
How about...no? How about we not encourage a system that serves only to destroy in a social Darwinistic convulsion?

I'm not advocating that. I'm saying that if children weren't discouraged from schoolyard fights to extent that they are expelled or something from school they wouldn't resort to guns after years of abuse. They could have stopped shit when it started by getting into a few fights in elementary and middle school, with a few maybe thrown in during high school. Nothing bad about a few fights here and there.

Yes, yes there is something wrong with advocating systemic violence in childhood. Especially as a system that promotes that causes long term damages to the entire group of children. Turns out, teaching people that violence = problem solver makes them use more violence. Which is bad.

[IshCong]

Yes, yes there is something wrong with advocating systemic violence in childhood. Especially as a system that promotes that causes long term damages to the entire group of children. Turns out, teaching people that violence = problem solver makes them use more violence. Which is bad.

Not in my book.

There is literally nothing I can say to that.

[IshCong]

Bullying toughens up the kid and teaches them to have thicker skin and stop being a thin skinned little weakling makes them learn to stand up for themselves rather than be sheep, and weeds out the weaklings. It made me stronger and taught me to fight back, that others words and thoughts of me unless they were useful to me were simply dirt and that all people unless they are useful to me are simply lower than dirt and to not care about what they say about me unless it directly effects me. Also taught me to never trust anyone always watch my back and fight tooth and nail for myself and myself alone, no one ever came to help me and i learned nobody was going to help me and i learned i must only help myself unless i directly benefit from helping them they are useless to me and to simply ignore them. I don't have my father in my life so i need to fend for myself, I'm the perfect bullying target i go to school in a relatively wealthy neighborhood and i am poor, also I'm an African-American and i have red hair, black eyebrows, and blonde mustache so i was a pretty good target for people until i showed them what happens if they mess with me. when i was in Elementary it was either 2nd or 3rd grade after school this one little slut kept on pushing me in the mud, she would when i wasn't looking run up behind me push me on the ground run away to a safe distance then laugh at me, one day she forgot to run to a safe distance and just laughed at me when i got back up and turned around she was smiling this annoying little smile so i punched her in the face, and then threw her in the mud i preceded to bite and choke on her neck until one of the adults hit me over the head with a plank, from then on everyone knew if you mess with me I'm going to mess you up badly. "Survival of the fittest" animals in the wild have predators to get rid of the weak, we humans have Bully's.

I'm.. not even..


This is sickening, I mean.. What the fuck am I reading?

The 'everyone should become a sociopath' approach to bullying.
I think. It's hard to tell.

[IshCong]

You think i'm a sociopath? well ok, i see no problem with that if you wish to call me a sociopath well fine call me a sociopath if you wish. but just to see if i am a true socipath lest look at the medical definition of sociopath.

Antisocial personality disorder(sociopath)
It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:

1. Callous unconcern for the feelings of others
2. Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
3.Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them
4.Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
5.Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
6.Markedly prone to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society

well i admit i am pretty strongly # 1, depending on the circumstances #2 because if i do not agree with them and they go against my own i will generally not care to follow them, i am half of #3, and i am also half of #5. well i guess i am a sociopath...Yay?

It's a bit more complicated that what you'll find on the web, and difficult to diagnose, especially in youth. (IDK how old you are.)
Really though, I didn't mean a literal sociopath, so much as I was referring to the OP and a few others who seemed to have meant it in a more metaphorical manner.
I hope.

[IshCong]

You have been very badly injured too, just in a different way.

How have i been badly injured? only bad injury i had was when i busted my middle finger from tripping on it (I'm a little clumsy) it wasn't so bad only bad part was when my mom said "Get the F**** over it" i was a little kid at the time and it hurt my feelings, this is before i learned my lessons and became stronger.

Well, you just described yourself as a sociopath.
Sociopathy is a disease/mental disorder. QED...
(Assuming that you are a sociopath, which isn't impossible, but is really just an example.)

For that matter, sociopathic tendencies? Unhealthy. =T

[IshCong]

It's a bit more complicated that what you'll find on the web, and difficult to diagnose, especially in youth. (IDK how old you are.)
Really though, I didn't mean a literal sociopath, so much as I was referring to the OP and a few others who seemed to have meant it in a more metaphorical manner.
I hope.

its my birthday I'm currently 16, i celebrated and had i party, nobody came so i celebrated by myself i bought my favorite type of cake Oreo chocolate ice cream cake and i also had a few scoops of rocky road ice cream, it was a good day.

Yeah, they don't diagnose sociopathy (Anti-Social Personality Disorder) until 18 due to complications.

[IshCong]

Bullying doesn't just 'stop' though, and that 'beneficial change' is so far beyond 'not guaranteed' that I can't even come up with a phrase for it. It's like, the planet of "Not Likely" in the system of "Rarely Happens" in the galaxy of "Not Guaranteed".
That's the whole point. You keep on constructing unrealistic cases that support this, but aren't substantiated in the actual real world. You're building more and more strawmen to support your argument, but that's what it all is. Straw.

Bullying does stop. The effects, in some cases may not, but to claim it doesn't stop is ridiculous.

Explain, in complete detail why they are strawmen. Otherwise...

My argument has not changed. What might have changed is your perception of it. With reagrds to your claims as to the chances: bull.

There is actually a good chance of something positive coming out of minor physical bullying. Your problem seems to be that for you all bullying is severe. That is another blatant untruth. (I say untruth because there is a lot of truth in it despite its false-ness.) To turn to anecdotes, I cannot think of a single instance of minor physical bullying that actually proved negative beyond the period of harrassment. But that is anecdotal.

Since you're so fond of key words, note the one 'just'. Bullying is systematic, and therefore tends to last unless something is done to stop it.

They're strawmen because they're horribly contrived scenarios that serve to place such limitations on things as to make you right, despite those limitations not being supported in actuality, or else being supported only in extraordinarily rare instances, as I've said.

Lesser harm is still harm. If nothing else, bullying impedes legitimate attempts to achieve the positive ends your propose through means that are more effective, less malignant, and less destructive.

There's a reason we don't use anecdotes. I can't think of any instance in which bullying has helped anyone, and can think of innumerable instances where it caused damage long after the harassment ended, in both physical and psychological cases.

But I'd love to see what you call 'minor bullying'.

[IshCong]

I was bullied in school, and looking back on it, I'm pretty sure I brought some of it on myself, as is often the case with kids who are bullied. Another thing that was often the case with the bullied was that I was a bit of a bully myself.

Tell me more about how victims ask to be victimized.

It seems every time there is a school shooting, someone in one of my college classes without fail will bring the topic up. They proceed to tell a story deserving of violins and extended stays at Bellevue about being bullied. Typically this person is fat, ugly, zit-encrusted and is a big prick with a personality as interesting as the goth chick on the morning after you fucked her. If you are in your mid 20's and still dwelling on what happened in high school, I think I know why you were bullied and why I would have bullied you too.

If you're in your 20's and still recalling some of the events that happened during your major formative years, you're Human. If you were exposed to large scale mental/physical torment, guess what? You're probably going to have a tormented life later on. Especially if you can't find closure due to the way people treat you.
Such as claiming you asked/deserved it, or else disregarding your psychological trauma.

My generation (those of us born in the 80's) seems to be a generation completely unable to take any kind of criticism, much less anything resembling abuse.

Bullying is not 'criticism'. It is deliberate, malignant, systematic abuse of an individual, often by a group, with the individual often both stigmatized and ignored by others.

We've been told we're special when we're not, given gold stars and trophies for simply being somewhere, been told we have a right to self-esteem for nothing and praised no matter what we do. Is it any wonder why we were such annoying shits (both the bullies and the bullied) and why small incidents become the "absolute worst thing that ever happened, really" for some people? Kids have bullied each other since schools were invented, probably before then, why do we have to put it at the top of the national agenda now? Could it be the shrill cries of brats who have been told they are so special, and the fact that the first coddled generation are the parents?

Or it could be the progressive transfer to situations that are better than those that preceded them. We've changed governments, economic systems, social mores. This is one of those times when something is bad, and some of us hope to introduce reforms to at least mitigate a situation that continues to harm people.

I don't think it's right or wrong. It just happens. It is a product of an education system that forces you to sit and passively absorb spoonfed information for 6 hours in a sterile soulless environment when you are full of energy and growing.

It hurts innocents.
Hurting innocents is wrong and detrimental.
It is wrong and detrimental.

It's a product of society at large and the psychology of individuals, which explains the persistence you've mentioned. That does not make it right, any more than genocide, slavery, or various other less extreme examples are 'right'.

[IshCong]

Since you're so fond of key words, note the one 'just'. Bullying is systematic, and therefore tends to last unless something is done to stop it.

They're strawmen because they're horribly contrived scenarios that serve to place such limitations on things as to make you right, despite those limitations not being supported in actuality, or else being supported only in extraordinarily rare instances, as I've said.

Lesser harm is still harm. If nothing else, bullying impedes legitimate attempts to achieve the positive ends your propose through means that are more effective, less malignant, and less destructive.

There's a reason we don't use anecdotes. I can't think of any instance in which bullying has helped anyone, and can think of innumerable instances where it caused damage long after the harassment ended, in both physical and psychological cases.

But I'd love to see what you call 'minor bullying'.

Then you need to lose the 'x' or 'xy'.

That's not complete detail, now, is it?

I don't know how I can be any more complete in pointing out strawmen than by pointing out that your proposed scenarios are contrived beyond all reason.

Now you 'xy', that was a deliberate trap. Either that or you genuinely didn't realise. Much like bullying there are two kinds: intentional and unintentional. You know that, though. The latter is more likely to be the result of an overly sensitive person, once the problem is fixed both parties are always better off for it. (Unless the fixing is judged broadly as stopping the unintentional bullying which could mean it becomes intentional. That is not what I mean though.) That said, it is less likely to be physical, that is because of the nature of physical acts. God knows it is difficult for it to be severe as it is hard not realise that bullying is happening in such a circumstance.

Except, no. Bullying is systematic and malignant, essentially by definition. You can't malignantly and systematically harass someone 'accidentally'. It just doesn't work like that. It's the exact opposite of both 'malignant' and 'systematic'.
This is another strawman.

Minor physical bullying, whether intentional or not, usually consists of unwanted taps to the shoulder (and the like), pinching of objects and eventual return or occasional bouts of something more severe like theft. This is bullying and when it stops, and it will somehow, it is entirely possible that it will have stopped as a result of a change in the bullied party; that change may be beneficial for that person. Major physical bullying such as full on assault, persistent persecution through means such as theft, taunt and theft and other physical acts. This may stop in rare circumstances due to a positive change in the bullied, but that is not to be expected.

That's just it. Bullying is systematic, it's persistent. An entire group is only very rarely going to change due to some slight change in the victimized individual. And even then, whatever changes occur are almost entirely negative, as this thread has shown. Half the people who claim bullying helped them are advocating violence. Violence is not healthy.

And even when those changes do show up, the bullies will, quite probably, still torment either that individual, or in some cases, move onto another individual and start the victimization process all over anew.
Neither is a positive outcome.

Now understand this, normally major bullying is with many bullies, emotional or mental in nature and can involve more major physical elements. Physical bullying is normally one or a few bullies and consists entirely of physical acts, with minor taunts on occasion and all related to the physical act.

Now understand that the psyche and the physical body are not as separable as you claim, and that physical actions taken to harm a person will always result in psychological aftershocks as well, resulting in psychological trauma on top of the physical trauma. This is all the more true when the victim is stigmatized, ostracized, ignored, receives no help, or perceives that they are fighting the majority. All of which is excessively common, especially since, as you note, it is typically several people ganging up on a lone individual, creating a perceived majority.

There's a reason why I made it entirely clear that it was an anecdote...

Yes. I was agreeing that anecdotes should not be used.

[IshCong]

People ganging up to bully someone else. I've seen that happen.

^ This.

question... do you consider this bullying?
http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... gets-them/

why or why not?

Which part? The part where the three girls vandalize the sidewalk, or the part where Lovitz tweets about it?

[IshCong]

Which part? The part where the three girls vandalize the sidewalk, or the part where Lovitz tweets about it?

I was thinking about Lovitz's actions...

Well, I can only respond within the definition I usually use, but here goes:
1: Systematic? Does not appear so.
2: Continuous? Does not appear so.
3: Malevolent? Unsure. It's rather a quirky situation.
4: Deliberate? Well, his action of tweeting about it was.

So I'd have to say no. *shrugs*
Partly because part of what he did was simply inform others of a wrongdoing.

Edited after re-checking language.

[IshCong]

When I saw people getting constantly physically bullied, I would always befriend them and protect them. Needless to say, they didn't get bullied much after that.

I don't care much for verbal bullying, though. Anyone who can't take words on the chin is not ready for the world yet. And god forbid they ever use the internet. Words cannot hurt, I have been called many "hurtful" things throughout my lifetime, but it doesn't matter, because I realise that words cannot damage me.

Physical bullying does hurt;
Words do not.

Tell me more about your psychology degrees?

[IshCong]

Tell me more about your psychology degrees?

Do you have a psychology degree either? I thought not. Just because I don't have a psychology degree does not mean my opinion is automatically wrong. You don't have one either, so why is yours right - Because it is the more popular opinion?

Only the weak are hurt by words.

I was being sarcastic to show that you apparently don't understand the psychological impacts of repeated negative stimuli that are used for a prolonged period of time in a systematic manner.
TL;DR: Words hurt. They can cause major psychological problems that require counseling.

I can just as easily say only the weak allow themselves to be beaten, or stabbed, or bleed. It is not true. You cannot fault the victim for being victimized.

[IshCong]

Care to provide some evidence for that?

<-

And also, the number of people who kill themselves from verbal bullying is so little, that every case is reported. Sure there are those that just shut themselves off from the world, but the number of people who do that as a result of verbal bullying is also small.

More people are unharmed by bullying than those that are - That's a fact, and evidence that supports my statement. Only the weak are hurt by words.

Care to provide some evidence for that?

[IshCong]

I was being sarcastic to show that you apparently don't understand the psychological impacts of repeated negative stimuli that are used for a prolonged period of time in a systematic manner.
TL;DR: Words hurt. They can cause major psychological problems that require counseling.

I can just as easily say only the weak allow themselves to be beaten, or stabbed, or bleed. It is not true. You cannot fault the victim for being victimized.

Well that's not true, because when you get stabbed or beaten, nocieptors activate sending a chemical message to your brain, causing you to feel pain. That is why everyone is hurt from being beaten or stabbed. Bleeding happens because when the skin is pierced, the blood is no longer contained and it comes out. Everyone experiences this.

Words, last time I checked, do not walk up to you and beat you, or stab you, or make you bleed. Thus, your analogy is flawed.

Only the weak allow certain vibrations in the air to cause them pain.

You apparently are unaware that your brain also has chemical signals that cause you to feel pain when you are tormented psychologically.
This can manifest itself as various neuroses, heightened stress, blood pressure changes, and more.
Everyone experiences this to one degree or another, just as everyone bleeds to one degree or another.

Your degradation of the victims only shows your ignorance to basic psychology.

4 Edits? Tch.
"Only the weak can't tolerate small amounts of pain."
OH? So now everyone who cannot tolerate physical or emotional pain is weak, by your standards. REALLY?