Education Reform Discussion

[Eternal Mysteries]

I've been talking and talking with my friends about this issue, mostly because I haven't been able to get on NSG regularly. Now that I am here however I would like to start a discussion about it here; what things do you think need done to reform the education in your nation?


I live in the USA, and I am not a fan of the 3 month summer break students receive every single year in most schools throughout the nation. Students are entitled to about 90 days of summer vacation on top of the 30 or more days (plus weekends) off students receive normally throughout the school year. In theory I don't disagree with giving students plenty of time off, however I think that an entire three month block of time of is far too much; students are then forced to play catch up at school with the first six or more weeks being used as a review of what they had studied the previous year.
My youngest brother whom is 16 years old has already used the "Well I don't remember this stuff anymore." excuse enough to make me want to perpetrate violence upon him. The three month vacation block should be repealed. A seemingly better idea would be a continuous block of classes with weekends off for a set amount of weeks, and then an allotted holiday that would go the entire year around.

This is just one idea, I would like to see that the rest of NSG comes up with.

Eternal Mysteries uses an educational agenda that benefits the students, schools, teachers, and families.

There are four 3 week intercessions during each school year. This gives students a break from a boring continuous curriculum, and allows scholols and teachers to organize and adjust educational agenda to benefit both sides.

The best benefit is that families spend time together on a more frequent basis. It eliminates the idea that the schools are merely babysitters, while ensuring parents get an opportunity to instill their own educational values more frequently with their own children.

The County of Maui in Hawaii uses this system very successfully.

[Sarkhaan]

In theory, long summer breaks allow students to get summer jobs or work extra hours at their part-time jobs, and so they can have some experience with making money and then wasting it on stupid things. That's how it worked for me from 10th grade through college.
In practice, there simply isn't that much employment, especially in the current economy, and most students are too lazy to work that much anyway.

having large numbers of children in school in hot steamy August isn't necessarily the best learning envrionment.

There is this, too. The local high and middle schools when I was growing up had no air conditioning, being as they were shitty, old buildings that probably dated back to at least WWII. At least once during each spring, school would be canceled because it was too damn hot during the day. If they'd been open during June-August, there would have been a lot more cancellations.

That's actually the number one reason that year-round schooling hasn't been adopted by every district: installing air conditioning is expensive, but would be necessary to have summer classes, even in the northern states.

[Tekania]

Since when was it three months? Its two months, July and August.

Depends on the area, in ours it's closer to 2 1/2 months.... Kids get out mid-June, and do not return till the day after labor-day...

[Sarkhaan]

I've been talking and talking with my friends about this issue, mostly because I haven't been able to get on NSG regularly. Now that I am here however I would like to start a discussion about it here; what things do you think need done to reform the education in your nation?


I live in the USA, and I am not a fan of the 3 month summer break students receive every single year in most schools throughout the nation. Students are entitled to about 90 days of summer vacation on top of the 30 or more days (plus weekends) off students receive normally throughout the school year. In theory I don't disagree with giving students plenty of time off, however I think that an entire three month block of time of is far too much; students are then forced to play catch up at school with the first six or more weeks being used as a review of what they had studied the previous year.
My youngest brother whom is 16 years old has already used the "Well I don't remember this stuff anymore." excuse enough to make me want to perpetrate violence upon him. The three month vacation block should be repealed. A seemingly better idea would be a continuous block of classes with weekends off for a set amount of weeks, and then an allotted holiday that would go the entire year around.

This is just one idea, I would like to see that the rest of NSG comes up with.

Since when was it three months? Its two months, July and August.

And half of June (the other half month is winter vacation, and yet another half split among Feb and April vacations)

[Eugene Zolo]

I've been talking and talking with my friends about this issue, mostly because I haven't been able to get on NSG regularly. Now that I am here however I would like to start a discussion about it here; what things do you think need done to reform the education in your nation?


I live in the USA, and I am not a fan of the 3 month summer break students receive every single year in most schools throughout the nation. Students are entitled to about 90 days of summer vacation on top of the 30 or more days (plus weekends) off students receive normally throughout the school year. In theory I don't disagree with giving students plenty of time off, however I think that an entire three month block of time of is far too much; students are then forced to play catch up at school with the first six or more weeks being used as a review of what they had studied the previous year.
My youngest brother whom is 16 years old has already used the "Well I don't remember this stuff anymore." excuse enough to make me want to perpetrate violence upon him. The three month vacation block should be repealed. A seemingly better idea would be a continuous block of classes with weekends off for a set amount of weeks, and then an allotted holiday that would go the entire year around.

This is just one idea, I would like to see that the rest of NSG comes up with.

Since when was it three months? Its two months, July and August.

And half of June (the other half month is winter vacation, and yet another half split among Feb and April vacations)

In NY school officially ended on the 28th last school year. I was only talking about summer vacation, because Sarkhaan said ''90 days of summer vacation.'' If we're talking about overall days off from school we actually have school for around 185 days, in NYC at least.

[Sarkhaan]

Firstly, they need to redo the courses. Have two types for each of the core courses

Their needs to be less fun, waste, goofing around, unintelligible nonsense in our school systems.

For example, the school I went to just spent millions of dollars re-doing its parking lot and athletic stadium. Yet, in some classes there is not a book for every student. I am going to be blunt about this as well, this is a rich, white suburban public school that is ranked among some of the highest in the country. I cannot even imagine how poorly some of the less fortunate schools do when I see such wastes in this school.

Athletics need to be taken out of school entirely, it is a waste of money, money that should be spent on education.

Athletics can also bring money into a district, as well as building school culture and community. They provide a way to reach students that are otherwise disinterested and would easily be lost. Athletics are not the problem: it is directing funding to them instead of classrooms.

Secondly, a lot of crap in the classroom needs to be stopped. Cellphones should not leave lockers, if they are caught in a classroom, they should be confiscated for the rest of the year, no exceptions. The loudmouths and trouble makers need to get more serious punishment, not the slaps on the wrist they currently get. Their distractions to the class endanger the education of others. Children who do not perform to a certain standard should be required to spend another hour after school in the class they are failing at least once a week. I see to many people failing shit just because they don't care or don't try.

I, nor the school, want the liability of keeping a students cell phone for a full year. Not to mention the parental nightmare that would ensue. Taking it for the day is plenty, with escalating punishments for repeat offenders.

Curriculum needs to be brought up to modern standards. Textbooks need to be updated at least every 4 years (with the money saved from waste, I think this should be feasible, though I think textbooks themselves are becoming outdated to computers and perhaps CD's that have information on them).

Textbooks have been outdated for years. Mediocre teachers will adhere to them. Good and great teachers, however, have discovered the beauty of primary sources.

Finally, emphasis needs to be placed on math and science. - English and Social Studies are nice classes, but they are not going to equip a future workforce with the knowledge required in the same manors as math and science do. And finally, no more "Debate" about evolution in schools. It should be mandatory and unquestioned. - Religion should be kept out of school ENTIRELY. Their should be no debate over that.

Piaget created the theory of educating the whole child. English provides critical analysis abilities. Social studies, history, and the other social sciences provide context. Art and physical education classes provide spacial knowledge. All of these enhance the study of math and science.

[Sarkhaan]

I've been talking and talking with my friends about this issue, mostly because I haven't been able to get on NSG regularly. Now that I am here however I would like to start a discussion about it here; what things do you think need done to reform the education in your nation?


I live in the USA, and I am not a fan of the 3 month summer break students receive every single year in most schools throughout the nation. Students are entitled to about 90 days of summer vacation on top of the 30 or more days (plus weekends) off students receive normally throughout the school year. In theory I don't disagree with giving students plenty of time off, however I think that an entire three month block of time of is far too much; students are then forced to play catch up at school with the first six or more weeks being used as a review of what they had studied the previous year.
My youngest brother whom is 16 years old has already used the "Well I don't remember this stuff anymore." excuse enough to make me want to perpetrate violence upon him. The three month vacation block should be repealed. A seemingly better idea would be a continuous block of classes with weekends off for a set amount of weeks, and then an allotted holiday that would go the entire year around.

This is just one idea, I would like to see that the rest of NSG comes up with.

Since when was it three months? Its two months, July and August.

And half of June (the other half month is winter vacation, and yet another half split among Feb and April vacations)

In NY school officially ended on the 28th last school year. I was only talking about summer vacation, because Sarkhaan said ''90 days of summer vacation.'' If we're talking about overall days off from school we actually have school for around 185 days, in NYC at least.

You got out late because of snow days. This past winter was particularly bad. Without snow days, when would you have been out?

[Tekania]

For example, the school I went to just spent millions of dollars re-doing its parking lot and athletic stadium. Yet, in some classes there is not a book for every student. I am going to be blunt about this as well, this is a rich, white suburban public school that is ranked among some of the highest in the country. I cannot even imagine how poorly some of the less fortunate schools do when I see such wastes in this school.

If it's anything like the District my wife teaches in, they probably funneled that money from the funds allotted to a poorer area school...

[The Romulan Republic]

When I was homeschooled I didn't take breaks, and I felt I learned and retained more.


No Summer breaks
No Holidays
No Weekends
etc.

Terrible idea. As someone who has only a little more than a year ago bid a happy farewell to high school, I can say from experience that school already infringed too much on my time. It is foolish to believe that the only meaningful experiences and education a child can have must occur in a formal school setting.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

I only get 6 weeks holiday.
I swear everyone other country gets more.

[NERVUN]

3 months on, 1 month off is a system I'd like to see implimented more.

The system I'm in (Nagano, Japan, which is not the standard, we have a longer school year) is a trimester system with two weeks off between school years (March to April), 10 days off during winter (Dec 28 to Jan , and 3 weeks during the summer (Late July to Mid August). Once you get used to it, it's not bad.

I'd also like schools to start later...say, 9 AM rather than 7:20 AM, when students are actually awake enough to possibly learn something.

The teacher in me who has to try and make junior high school kids care about English at 8:40 am agrees. The desert rat who knows there's a damn good reason why schools in Nevada will start at 6:30 (And these are the buildings WITH AC) is not so sure.

Increase funding for special education including gifted and talented
Increase national use of standard-based education
Develop a national curriculum (keep it voluntary, but encourage its use)
Ease transitions for teachers between states
Track students rather than schools for progress (IE, each student has a number that sticks with them regardless of where they move, so schools with a high turnover rate are not penalized for the fact that they have an entirely new class every three years)
Standardization of the application process through the use of central servers to reduce HR costs

Agreed, agreed, agreed. I'd love to see the master teacher program become nationwide and allow for automatic transfer of license between the states.

[Chrobalta]

When I was homeschooled I didn't take breaks, and I felt I learned and retained more.


No Summer breaks
No Holidays
No Weekends
etc.

Terrible idea. As someone who has only a little more than a year ago bid a happy farewell to high school, I can say from experience that school already infringed too much on my time. It is foolish to believe that the only meaningful experiences and education a child can have must occur in a formal school setting.

I think the "No weekends" part was extreme, but everything else is reasonable considering the current state of our educational system, and the clear fact that our children is not learning .

We need to spend more time encouraging our children to learn math and science than things they pick up outside of school. Our children (for the most part) are overly street smart, and not enough book smart.

[The Romulan Republic]

Firstly, they need to redo the courses. Have two types for each of the core courses

Their needs to be less fun, waste, goofing around, unintelligible nonsense in our school systems.

Agreed for the most part, tentatively. For one thing, teachers should be trained and payed to put a little more effort into their classes than the typical "throw on a video and hand out a little work sheet" approach.

However, I find it odd that you would actually encourage making education deliberately less fun. The greatest key to making students give a shit about their education is to make it interesting (not to be confused, as I feel many teachers do, with "patronizing," "easy," or "simplistic").

For example, the school I went to just spent millions of dollars re-doing its parking lot and athletic stadium. Yet, in some classes there is not a book for every student. I am going to be blunt about this as well, this is a rich, white suburban public school that is ranked among some of the highest in the country. I cannot even imagine how poorly some of the less fortunate schools do when I see such wastes in this school.

Disgusting.

Athletics need to be taken out of school entirely, it is a waste of money, money that should be spent on education.

Athletics serve two main purposes: one not really legitimate, the other somewhat more so.

First, they train students to function in a team, but also to embrace tribalistic rivalries and competativeness.

Secondly, they are probably supposed to keep students exercising and combat obesity, etc. Given that obesity is such a big issue these days, its unlikely many people will want to take funding from athletics, however offensive and a waste of time such programs are in other ways.

Secondly, Teachers unions need to be weakened. While I think it is important that they are protected by unions, it simply cannot be as powerful as it is. Bad teachers who would have been fired, if they worked in any other profession are allowed to keep their jobs because school's are not powerful enough to get rid of them.

I'm inclined to agree once again.

Secondly, a lot of crap in the classroom needs to be stopped. Cellphones should not leave lockers, if they are caught in a classroom, they should be confiscated for the rest of the year, no exceptions.

That is property theft. While a student should probably not bring cellphones to class, I would also support any student who's cellphone was confiscated if they wished to sue and/or file criminal charges. And they should have the right to do so.

The loudmouths and trouble makers need to get more serious punishment, not the slaps on the wrist they currently get. Their distractions to the class endanger the education of others. Children who do not perform to a certain standard should be required to spend another hour after school in the class they are failing at least once a week. I see to many people failing shit just because they don't care or don't try.

If a student doesn't want to work, forcing them to stay an extra hour isn't going to change that. Rather, the curriculum needs to be better designed, made more interesting, so that students actually give a damn. Of course, there will always be some who never will, but I don't see what can be done about that.

You seem to feel that students require less freedom, fewer rights, and harsher discipline. I think that this is potentially detrimental.

Curriculum needs to be brought up to modern standards. Textbooks need to be updated at least every 4 years (with the money saved from waste, I think this should be feasible, though I think textbooks themselves are becoming outdated to computers and perhaps CD's that have information on them).

I don't like the current trend towards replacing books with computers. Both have a place, and neither should be promoted to the total exclusion of the other.

Agreed that curriculum should be kept up to date, and their should be budget increases if nessissary to accomplish this.

Finally, emphasis needs to be placed on math and science. - English and Social Studies are nice classes, but they are not going to equip a future workforce with the knowledge required in the same manors as math and science do.

Here I must disagree with you, totally and categorically. While I do not deny that educational standards in all fields require improvement, I see nothing to be gained and a great deal to be lost by essentially turning public schooling into a technical school. Knowledge of proper grammar and spelling, and other skills such as how to write a proper essay, are critical to various jobs as well as university. Also, many students will likely receive little exposure to many kinds of literature outside of school, and by de-emphasizing English, you are in large part de-emphasizing the history of human thought and culture.

History is also essential, as one cannot be an informed voter and citizen, or participate fully and effectively in democracy, without an extensive historical education. Historical ignorance plays into the hands of bigots, liars, and propagandists. Much the same could be said of Law as a subject, one which I am inclined to feel should be made mandatory for graduation in the upper grades.

And finally, no more "Debate" about evolution in schools. It should be mandatory and unquestioned.

Agreed.

- Religion should be kept out of school ENTIRELY. Their should be no debate over that.

Religion taught as fact, yes. The history of religion and religious belief, taught impartially, is an essential part of historical education.

[Rikese]

Their needs to be less fun, waste, goofing around, unintelligible nonsense in our school systems.

Secondly, a lot of crap in the classroom needs to be stopped. Cellphones should not leave lockers, if they are caught in a classroom, they should be confiscated for the rest of the year, no exceptions. The loudmouths and trouble makers need to get more serious punishment, not the slaps on the wrist they currently get. Their distractions to the class endanger the education of others. Children who do not perform to a certain standard should be required to spend another hour after school in the class they are failing at least once a week. I see to many people failing shit just because they don't care or don't try.

These changes will hurt your cause more than help it. I've had two very wise teachers - one in college, one in high school - tell me that there is such a disinterest and hatred of all things intellectual by many young people because it is taught in a rigid school environment. By the time the average Joe gets out of high school, they will hate or barely know of The Stranger, King Lear, or other works. If anything, there needs to be reform in the other direction. Rules do need to be firm, but how classes are taught does need to change. The staples of a classroom - blackboards and textbooks - need to be thrown out.

[Eugene Zolo]

You got out late because of snow days. This past winter was particularly bad. Without snow days, when would you have been out?[/quote]

No NYC only had one snow day last year, we rarely have snow days, most years we have none at all.

[Buffett and Colbert]

You got out late because of snow days. This past winter was particularly bad. Without snow days, when would you have been out?

No NYC only had one snow day last year, we rarely have snow days, most years we have none at all.[/quote]

Every now and then, I have hurricane days.

[Fartsniffage]

That is property theft. While a student should probably not bring cellphones to class, I would also support any student who's cellphone was confiscated if they wished to sue and/or file criminal charges. And they should have the right to do so.

During my first year at uni it was expalined that any mobile phones ringing during a lecture or tutorial would be thrown out of the window. It only happened once that I knew about, during the third week and from a 3rd floor lecture hall, I never heard of it needing to happen again.

Effective and funny.

[Rikese]

That is property theft. While a student should probably not bring cellphones to class, I would also support any student who's cellphone was confiscated if they wished to sue and/or file criminal charges. And they should have the right to do so.

During my first year at uni it was expalined that any mobile phones ringing during a lecture or tutorial would be thrown out of the window. It only happened once that I knew about, during the third week and from a 3rd floor lecture hall, I never heard of it needing to happen again.

Effective and funny.

And also illegal.

[Tekania]

And also illegal.

Nope... Unauthorized equipment can be confiscated or destroyed... Knew the rule, violated it... Pre-accepted the loss of the equipment... Besides, to contest it as theft would be too expensive, considering technically the SCHOOL could contest the loss of instructional time for/by the students and professor... which would FAR exceed the price of that phone...

[Patriqvinia]

Charter schools and private schools replacing public schools would be a practical economic solution. After all, public schools take a lot of money to maintain and have proven to be highly inefficient.

[Tekania]

Charter schools and private schools replacing public schools would be a practical economic solution. After all, public schools take a lot of money to maintain and have proven to be highly inefficient.

Too bad this analysis is unfounded...

Public schools require providing education to all... Neither private nor charter schools have such requirements... They're not even capable of enrolling all of their applicants (leaving many in Public schools while on the waiting list)... So your comparatives were pulled out of your ass... Only reason "cost" would be cut, is because large segments of the working-poor's/poor's children would be denied an education...

[SaintB]

Charter schools and private schools replacing public schools would be a practical economic solution. After all, public schools take a lot of money to maintain and have proven to be highly inefficient.

The private sector is the answer to all of life's ills and injustices

[Patriqvinia]

Charter schools and private schools replacing public schools would be a practical economic solution. After all, public schools take a lot of money to maintain and have proven to be highly inefficient.

Too bad this analysis is unfounded...

Public schools require providing education to all... Neither private nor charter schools have such requirements... They're not even capable of enrolling all of their applicants (leaving many in Public schools while on the waiting list)... So your comparatives were pulled out of your ass... Only reason "cost" would be cut, is because large segments of the working-poor's/poor's children would be denied an education...

well naturally, it wouldn't be some instant thing. It would require public schools to be converted and perhaps a few more schools being built (creating more teaching jobs, and taxes could be lowered.) Grants could be given out to interested poor families, or they could home-school, or go to a religious school, (some are free if I remember correctly.) As for the rest... Fuck'em.

[Tekania]

well naturally, it wouldn't be some instant thing. It would require public schools to be converted and perhaps a few more schools being built (creating more teaching jobs, and taxes could be lowered.) Grants could be given out to interested poor families, or they could home-school, or go to a religious school, (some are free if I remember correctly.) As for the rest... Fuck'em.

Ahh, and the reason I absolutely loath Free-Marketers.... "Enlightened Self-Interest" is anything but enlightened.

[Patriqvinia]

well naturally, it wouldn't be some instant thing. It would require public schools to be converted and perhaps a few more schools being built (creating more teaching jobs, and taxes could be lowered.) Grants could be given out to interested poor families, or they could home-school, or go to a religious school, (some are free if I remember correctly.) As for the rest... Fuck'em.

Ahh, and the reason I absolutely loath Free-Marketers.... "Enlightened Self-Interest" is anything but enlightened.

poor poor collectivist