A Criminally Insane Man Goes to The Fair....

[Rhodmhire]

I wonder if he got a funnel cake before he left.

Fuck that, he won the giant panda! 'Cause, you know, the voice told him to.

The voices really love the giant Panda, and the tea cup rides.

I'm still skeptical if the voices got their money's worth though.

[German Nightmare]

The voices really love the giant Panda, and the tea cup rides.

No. They don't. They like raccoons.

[Gun Manufacturers]

I wonder if he got a funnel cake before he left.

Fuck that, he won the giant panda! 'Cause, you know, the voice told him to.

The voices really love the giant Panda, and the tea cup rides.

The voices don't know what they're talking about. The giant Husky > the giant Panda.

[Non Aligned States]

What I want to know is...why? Why would you take a criminally insane man....to the fair? Who the Hell thought this was a good idea?

I imagine certain rights groups did. Not specifically mind you, but those who think that mental illness is sufficient excuse to not put criminally violent people in high security prisons. After all, you can't treat them like prisoners now, can you?

[Wilgrove]

What I want to know is...why? Why would you take a criminally insane man....to the fair? Who the Hell thought this was a good idea?

I imagine certain rights groups did. Not specifically mind you, but those who think that mental illness is sufficient excuse to not put criminally violent people in high security prisons. After all, you can't treat them like prisoners now, can you?

Well now, to be honest if they are Mentally Ill, then putting them in a High Max Prison won't do any good. It won't rehabilitate them, and they won't understand why they're there. It'd be like trying to explain Algebra to a cat.

He should be in a mental hospital, not a prison.

[Poliwanacraca]

I think the people who planned that trip are lucky they didn't have more escapees, they they took 31 patients to the fair and only 11 staff.

Ok, that's criminally stupid.

A quick note: I may be mistaken, and someone else here may have seen additional information, but the article gave me no reason to believe that all, most, or "anyone other than that one guy" of the patients were considered to be especially dangerous or at risk of "escaping." Nowadays, quite a lot of people in mental hospitals are there voluntarily, and the overwhelming majority of the mentally ill are not in any way violent. In and of itself, there is no reason why it is any more stupid to take 31 mentally ill patients with 11 staff members than to take 31 cancer patients with 11 staff members. Again, the particular guy we are talking about here should clearly have been watched better or not taken along in the first place, but unless anyone here actually is privy to information about the other patients' histories and conditions, there's really not cause to declare that a 3/1 patient/staff ratio is inherently terrible.

[Sitspot]

In 1996 a judge ruled that Paul could attend Spokane Community College during the day as long as he returned back to the hospital at night. Two years later Judge Michael Leavitt ruled Paul could have overnight visits in Spokane as long as he was with an adult member of his family.

This guy has obviously been seen as making progress with his illness for a long time. A judge considered that he was fine to attend Spokane college, so it is difficult to see that a supervised trip to the County Fair should have been considered an especially high risk. And all the cries that cops or fairground should have been pre-notified is ass-covering BS. People do actually learn to cope with mental illnesses, just like any other illness. It is possible that Paul had a relapse today, but there is no particular evidence to that effect yet.

[Muravyets]

The article did not make the situation clear, but I would be surprised if this particular patient was held in a facility that was not geared specifically to the criminally insane, which would mean he is not their only dangerous patient.

Remember, it was proven in court that this guy really did murder a woman, and he was declared legally insane by the court and committed. I highly doubt a patient like that would be in with the kinds of patients who have never posed a danger to society. A tv report of this that I heard interviewed the local police chief (who was not best pleased with that hospital) who mentioned that the facility has a method of determining which patients are good to take on these field trips and which one are not, though he did not know what their system was.

I really don't think there is a way out of blame for the facility on this one.

[Non Aligned States]

Well now, to be honest if they are Mentally Ill, then putting them in a High Max Prison won't do any good. It won't rehabilitate them, and they won't understand why they're there. It'd be like trying to explain Algebra to a cat.

He should be in a mental hospital, not a prison.

There's mentally ill, and there's violently mentally ill. The latter are dangerous and cannot be trusted to be put in public spaces without a level of security capable of putting them down in seconds. If your mental hospital has the security features of a high security prison, that's fine, but these types of patients should never be let out until they are completely rehabilitated, regardless of the circumstances. This guy is on the low end of violent mental nuts, but on the opposite end we have the likes of the Port Arthur massacrer. Neither should be afforded any freedom outside of their cell walls and exercise yards.

But people still think that somehow they have enough rights to be afforded field trips.

And mind you, I don't even buy into the idea that mental illness excuses anything the way the courts seem to think.

[Muravyets]

In 1996 a judge ruled that Paul could attend Spokane Community College during the day as long as he returned back to the hospital at night. Two years later Judge Michael Leavitt ruled Paul could have overnight visits in Spokane as long as he was with an adult member of his family.

This guy has obviously been seen as making progress with his illness for a long time. A judge considered that he was fine to attend Spokane college, so it is difficult to see that a supervised trip to the County Fair should have been considered an especially high risk. And all the cries that cops or fairground should have been pre-notified is ass-covering BS. People do actually learn to cope with mental illnesses, just like any other illness. It is possible that Paul had a relapse today, but there is no particular evidence to that effect yet.

Remember that he had escaped once before. That history should have made them take extra precautions with him, even if they still thought he was stable enough to go on the trip.

[Lord Tothe]

I'll be at that fair on Sunday, but don't worry - I have my own transportation.

[Sitspot]

The fair director confirmed that they never received a request from Eastern State Hospital to have a group of their patients attend the fair and they were unaware a group of patients were at the fair Thursday. Fair officials say they never would have approved such a request.

This makes me especially angry. The fair director actually feels he has the right to refuse entry to people simply because they are being treated for mental illness! Words actually fail me, that this particular piece of mindless bigotry should go unchallenged, simply because the sheriff and media are pretending that Freddy Krueger is returning to Elm Street.

[Lucky Bicycle Works]

He'll probably take his insane friends out on a fishing boat.

I'm not getting the reference.

One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest ... book by Ken Kesey.

On the subject: the hospital were negligent in letting him go to the fair if they couldn't supervise him well enough to prevent his escape. That he did escape seems to show negligence, but taking him to the fair is not in itself negligent.

I don't see any reason the hospital should notify the fairground before coming along. Not unless the fairground has a uniform policy for all visitors to declare their mental health history before attending, or there is some special booking requirement for groups above a certain size.

The supervising staff are responsible for people like Paul who plainly are not legally responsible for their own actions (ie, criminally insane) and this is no different from parents being responsible for the behaviour of their children at the fair.

[Sitspot]

Until very recently Paul had been living alone at the Carlyle Hotel in Spokane. He was allowed to wander around Spokane on his own and unsupervised. He had only recently returned to Hospital and no reason for that is available as yet.
So, unless something had changed dramatically , claiming that a guy who had been considered legally and mentally fit to walk around town on his own needed extra supervision or precautions for the State Fair, is simply media hype and self promoting BS from the sheriff. And of course the usual uninformed public hysteria about mental illness.

[Vetalia]

I think I'm more worried about the abnormally high numbers of sex offenders around those places than some crazy barbarian.

[Non Aligned States]

This makes me especially angry. The fair director actually feels he has the right to refuse entry to people simply because they are being treated for mental illness! Words actually fail me, that this particular piece of mindless bigotry should go unchallenged, simply because the sheriff and media are pretending that Freddy Krueger is returning to Elm Street.

No, he had the right to refuse entry to a group of people he felt, with just cause, would be a danger to the fair staff and guests. And it turns out that he was partly right. That you call it mindless bigotry only goes to show that you are in favor of public endangerment by the violent mentally ill.

[Sitspot]

This makes me especially angry. The fair director actually feels he has the right to refuse entry to people simply because they are being treated for mental illness! Words actually fail me, that this particular piece of mindless bigotry should go unchallenged, simply because the sheriff and media are pretending that Freddy Krueger is returning to Elm Street.

No, he had the right to refuse entry to a group of people he felt, with just cause, would be a danger to the fair staff and guests. And it turns out that he was partly right. That you call it mindless bigotry only goes to show that you are in favor of public endangerment by the violent mentally ill.

Care to substantiate any of that? What exactly has happened to endanger anyone at the state fair so far?

[Niur]

spokanes not to far from where I live.... I hope he doesn't come to my house.

[Non Aligned States]

Care to substantiate any of that? What exactly has happened to endanger anyone at the state fair so far?

A mentally unstable person with a history of lethal violence has escaped under the custody of the hospital while at the fair and now poses an active threat. All of this has been established in the OP. If he had been confined to a cell, this would not have happened, and he would not pose a risk to anyone.

[Sitspot]

Care to substantiate any of that? What exactly has happened to endanger anyone at the state fair so far?

A mentally unstable person with a history of lethal violence has escaped under the custody of the hospital while at the fair and now poses an active threat. All of this has been established in the OP. If he had been confined to a cell, this would not have happened, and he would not pose a risk to anyone.

And, as that wasn't anything like an answer, again I ask what has actually happened to anyone at the state fair to justify the directors fears?

[Niur]

Care to substantiate any of that? What exactly has happened to endanger anyone at the state fair so far?

A mentally unstable person with a history of lethal violence has escaped under the custody of the hospital while at the fair and now poses an active threat. All of this has been established in the OP. If he had been confined to a cell, this would not have happened, and he would not pose a risk to anyone.

And, as that wasn't anything like an answer, again I ask what has actually happened to anyone at the state fair to justify the directors fears?

Nothing, but washingtonians have a social stigma against the insane. I of all people should know that.

[Papayania]

Criminally insane killer disappears from fair

The man they think might have been Paul was last seen walking westbound from the Sprague/ Trent corridor. Authorities think Paul, who has no money, may be attempting to hitchhike home to Sunnyside in the Yakima Valley where his parents live.

"His sister tells us he calls his parents in Sunnyside virtually every day and that if he's escaped he's headed home," Spokane County Sheriff Sergeant Dave Reagan said.

Seems like all this could have been avoided if they just held the fair at Paul's parent's house.

[Non Aligned States]

And, as that wasn't anything like an answer, again I ask what has actually happened to anyone at the state fair to justify the directors fears?

The same fears that you get if you decided to take a truck loaded with ANFO explosives into a fuel refinery and had a history of arson. You might not actually detonate it, but no one in their right mind is going to let you in.

The person has already killed someone out of mental instability. This person is not cured, if that is at all possible. He is an ACTIVE risk. That he escaped while on the grounds only increases the risk. The fair directors had every right to refuse him entry.

And let me guess. If he had gone and killed someone, you would still be outraged that the directors refused him entry initially.

[Niur]

Criminally insane killer disappears from fair

The man they think might have been Paul was last seen walking westbound from the Sprague/ Trent corridor. Authorities think Paul, who has no money, may be attempting to hitchhike home to Sunnyside in the Yakima Valley where his parents live.

"His sister tells us he calls his parents in Sunnyside virtually every day and that if he's escaped he's headed home," Spokane County Sheriff Sergeant Dave Reagan said.

Seems like all this could have been avoided if they just held the fair at Paul's parent's house.

That would be very difficult, saying that sunnyside would not be the place to hold a spokane fair

[Lucky Bicycle Works]

Care to substantiate any of that? What exactly has happened to endanger anyone at the state fair so far?

A mentally unstable person with a history of lethal violence has escaped under the custody of the hospital while at the fair and now poses an active threat. All of this has been established in the OP. If he had been confined to a cell, this would not have happened, and he would not pose a risk to anyone.

Being confined to a cell rather limits the options for rehabilitation, don't you think?

I mean you said before that the criminally insane should not be released until rehabilitated ... didn't you? Bit of a catch 22 there ... were you thinking Truman Show, a department of the hospital which so accurately mimics outside society that the inmate's experience of it is equivalent to actual society and they can learn to interact normally there? How is "faking" normal society going to make anyone saner? That would be enough to drive a sane person the other way!

For anyone who is ever going to be released, there has to be some graduality to it. I'm sure you don't disagree when the onus of guilt is the other way: you support the idea of parole conditions I expect, whereby a released felon is subject to restrictions not placed on free citizens?

But move that gradual reintegration into society to the other side of the magic line (their release, fully rehabilitated) and you're against it. Quite your usual "tough on crime" bias.