National socialism.

[Maurepas]

True, but, Im saying thats just cosmetic, and of course the whole premise of the OP was Nazism without the bodycount...

States that glorify violence but don't actually act on it are pretty rare, though.

And, it was relevant because the KMT, despite being on the winning side, and despite not having a Holocaust, still met a violent end, like Nazism, so Im thinking Nazi Germany, as well as any theoretical copy-cats would meet a similar fate...

The KMT still basically runs Taiwan, you know...

True, but, Im saying even in the rare occurance of a relatively less violent Fascist state, they still fall in the end...

And, although the KMT still runs Taiwan, it is little recognized, and met a violent end in China...The KMT was my example of a Fascist state in the best case scenario, no Holocaust, and on the Allies' side in WWII, yet it still fell and had to retreat into isolation...

[Ifreann]

All things considered, it was Hitler more than any political ideology that was the foundation of Nazism. They existed before him, but I don't think history cares what they did until they were doing what Hitler told them too.

[Grays Harbor]

Considering that no fascist state has ever outlasted a single leader, I suspect the Nazis would have died out as a species when Hitler kicked the bucket.

Of course, if they hadn't been led by a nutcase like Hitler in the first place, they probably would have been even more successful.

Prior to Hitler, the Nazis were a minor party who met in beerhalls. Hitler was actually assigned by the German Army to infiltrate and report on them, but when he found how disorganized they were, he resigned from the army and basically took over. (Thats the short dirty version. Its actually a bit more involved than that.) Without Hitler, the nazis most likely would have remained a minor fringe party without any influence.

[Yootopia]

True, but, Im saying even in the rare occurance of a relatively less violent Fascist state, they still fall in the end...

Aye but that's true of any form of government...

And, although the KMT still runs Taiwan, it is little recognized

Maybe not officially, but most Western states are still happy to trade with it. The US even sells them military equipment and the like.

and met a violent end in China...The KMT was my example of a Fascist state in the best case scenario, no Holocaust, and on the Allies' side in WWII, yet it still fell and had to retreat into isolation...

On the other hand, the CCP were also on the Allies' side, so err there we go.

[Cybach]

All things considered, it was Hitler more than any political ideology that was the foundation of Nazism. They existed before him, but I don't think history cares what they did until they were doing what Hitler told them too.

When Hitler stumbled into the Bavarian bar the Nazi party only had 7 members. By 1933, less than a decade later, under Hitler's leadership it had 12 million members. So I kind of agree with you, that it was simply Hitler's amazing oratory skills and once in a thousand year charisma that brought the party to existence out of nothing.

[Maurepas]

True, but, Im saying even in the rare occurance of a relatively less violent Fascist state, they still fall in the end...

Aye but that's true of any form of government...

And, although the KMT still runs Taiwan, it is little recognized

Maybe not officially, but most Western states are still happy to trade with it. The US even sells them military equipment and the like.

and met a violent end in China...The KMT was my example of a Fascist state in the best case scenario, no Holocaust, and on the Allies' side in WWII, yet it still fell and had to retreat into isolation...

On the other hand, the CCP were also on the Allies' side, so err there we go.

We trade with Taiwan unofficially, and, only because we have a soft spot for Anti-Commies...

and the CCP was in opposition to the KMT, Im saying that even if the Nazis had been on the winning side, a group like the CCP would eventually topple it, regardless...

[Tekania]

I dont think so, Case in point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Spain

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalist_China

Both of which met revolutionary ends regardless of neutrality(Spain) or being part of the Allies in WWII(China)...

Um, Spain did not meet "Revolutionary Ends"... Franco died, and they transitioned to a democratic system...

[Maurepas]

I dont think so, Case in point:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Spain

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalist_China

Both of which met revolutionary ends regardless of neutrality(Spain) or being part of the Allies in WWII(China)...

Um, Spain did not meet "Revolutionary Ends"... Franco died, and they transitioned to a democratic system...

The article I cited contains this:

The 1973 oil crisis severely affected Spain, and brought the economic growth to a halt. This caused a new wave of strikes (nominally illegal at the time).

Franco's declining health gave more power to Admiral Luis Carrero Blanco, but he was assassinated by ETA in 1973. Carlos Arias Navarro took over as President of the Spanish Government, and tried to introduce some reforms to the decaying regime, but he struggled between the two factions of the regime, the búnker (far-right) and the aperturists who promoted transition to Democracy.

Its not the level of Revolution that was seen in China or Russia, but revolutionary none the less...

[Yootopia]

We trade with Taiwan unofficially, and, only because we have a soft spot for Anti-Commies...

Uhu... doesn't mean the KMT doesn't run it, though.

and the CCP was in opposition to the KMT

Not during WW2 it wasn't.

Im saying that even if the Nazis had been on the winning side, a group like the CCP would eventually topple it, regardless...

I don't really see why. The KMT basically just needed more pals and someone more competent than Chiang Kai-Shek in charge of the military, but even more so economic side of things and it could've cleared out the CCP after the war ended. Hell the Long March reduced the CCP to about 10% of its original numbers.

[FreeAgency]

So we all know the what the Nazi's are. My question is: If the Nazi's didn't... well go nuts... would their ideology still be widespread? Would we still have National Socialist countries today? Or would it have taken the same fate as Communism?

No, unlike Communism, National Socializm is not a real political theory. It is best described as an offshoot of Fascism, which isn't a clearly defined political theory either, but at least has recognizable characteristics (Hyper-nationalizm, allusions to a glorious and likely imagined past, direct government intervention into social, military, and economic affairs, etc.)

National Socialism has all of these features as well, but combines them with a number of other truely odd beliefs that are so specific to Germany that the ideology really could not exist elsewhere without substantial modification. Nations with a large German or otherwise Germanic (which would include most of Europe depending on how far one is willing to streach the term) could easily modify Nazism so as to render it more viable in their countries; however, even this would be unlikely as the ideology is so centered on a totally anachronistic ideal of German history that it would nessisarily eclipse any local nationalist sentiment (So you can't be a prowd Englishman and a Nazi, because a Nazis pride comes first and formost from his Aryan heritage.) And, of course, Nazism could never exist in a nation like China or Egypt.

[Maurepas]

We trade with Taiwan unofficially, and, only because we have a soft spot for Anti-Commies...

Uhu... doesn't mean the KMT doesn't run it, though.

and the CCP was in opposition to the KMT

Not during WW2 it wasn't.

Im saying that even if the Nazis had been on the winning side, a group like the CCP would eventually topple it, regardless...

I don't really see why. The KMT basically just needed more pals and someone more competent than Chiang Kai-Shek in charge of the military, but even more so economic side of things and it could've cleared out the CCP after the war ended. Hell the Long March reduced the CCP to about 10% of its original numbers.

Actually, it was even in WWII, they simply decided that Japan was the bigger threat, but they were still not friends...

Authoritarian states inevitably have groups like the CCP as a thorn in their sides, possibly more loyal friends could have propped up the KMT, but eventually it would have been toppled, due to its Authoritarian nature, and the aforementioned economic climate, at the very least these things would have had to be changed, and the fascist element would be removed...

Even the CCP has had to recognize this after gaining power...

[Czardas]

Considering that no fascist state has ever outlasted a single leader, I suspect the Nazis would have died out as a species when Hitler kicked the bucket.

Of course, if they hadn't been led by a nutcase like Hitler in the first place, they probably would have been even more successful.

Prior to Hitler, the Nazis were a minor party who met in beerhalls. Hitler was actually assigned by the German Army to infiltrate and report on them, but when he found how disorganized they were, he resigned from the army and basically took over. (Thats the short dirty version. Its actually a bit more involved than that.) Without Hitler, the nazis most likely would have remained a minor fringe party without any influence.

Yes, I know (I've read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", or whatever that book's called); National Socialism, I imply, would have been most successful if it remained a minor fringe ideology rather than ever coming to power to demonstrate just how stupid, ephemeral, and impractical its views and policies were.

[Yootopia]

Actually, it was even in WWII, they simply decided that Japan was the bigger threat, but they were still not friends...

They fought together... they were as much allies in the Second World War as the US and USSR...

Authoritarian states inevitably have groups like the CCP as a thorn in their sides

The CCP is just a different authoritarian group.

possibly more loyal friends could have propped up the KMT, but eventually it would have been toppled, due to its Authoritarian nature, and the aforementioned economic climate, at the very least these things would have had to be changed, and the fascist element would be removed...

I don't really see why the fascist element would have to be removed, since it wasn't in Taiwan until Kai-Shek actually kicked the bucket.

Even the CCP has had to recognize this after gaining power...

Yes, the PRC is absolutely a bastion of human rights after 60 years in charge.

[Yootopia]

National Socialism, I imply, would have been most successful if it remained a minor fringe ideology rather than ever coming to power to demonstrate just how stupid, ephemeral, and impractical its views and policies were.

I don't see why, seeing as they'd be just another party to take the piss out of for being rubbish.

[Maurepas]

Actually, it was even in WWII, they simply decided that Japan was the bigger threat, but they were still not friends...

They fought together... they were as much allies in the Second World War as the US and USSR...

Authoritarian states inevitably have groups like the CCP as a thorn in their sides

The CCP is just a different authoritarian group.

possibly more loyal friends could have propped up the KMT, but eventually it would have been toppled, due to its Authoritarian nature, and the aforementioned economic climate, at the very least these things would have had to be changed, and the fascist element would be removed...

I don't really see why the fascist element would have to be removed, since it wasn't in Taiwan until Kai-Shek actually kicked the bucket.

Even the CCP has had to recognize this after gaining power...

Yes, the PRC is absolutely a bastion of human rights after 60 years in charge.

So, the distrustful, Anti-eachother's ideology kind of allies?

and Id say it would have been after Kai-Shek died even if he had remained in power in China, for the same reasons, economically and politically such a rule cannot be sustained in the modern world...

And, although definitely not a bastion of human rights, it is certainly less authoritarian, and more free market oriented than it was 50 years ago, again for the same reasons, and these reasons would have caught up to a victorious or less violent Nazi Germany, or any copycat states, as well...

[Czardas]

National Socialism, I imply, would have been most successful if it remained a minor fringe ideology rather than ever coming to power to demonstrate just how stupid, ephemeral, and impractical its views and policies were.

I don't see why, seeing as they'd be just another party to take the piss out of for being rubbish.

Well, yes, but kids could delve into the ancient days of German history and talk about "wouldn't it be cool if the Nazis had made it to power?" and academics would write papers about how fascism could be a worthwhile alternative to communism and capitalism and such-like. without being accused of anti-semitism, that is.

[Yootopia]

So, the distrustful, Anti-eachother's ideology kind of allies?

Yes.

and Id say it would have been after Kai-Shek died even if he had remained in power in China, for the same reasons, economically and politically such a rule cannot be sustained in the modern world...

It's been working for Turkey since the end of the First World War.

And, although definitely not a bastion of human rights, it is certainly less authoritarian, and more free market oriented than it was 50 years ago

More free market oriented yes, less authoritarian, dunno about this.

[Maurepas]

So, the distrustful, Anti-eachother's ideology kind of allies?

Yes.

and Id say it would have been after Kai-Shek died even if he had remained in power in China, for the same reasons, economically and politically such a rule cannot be sustained in the modern world...

It's been working for Turkey since the end of the First World War.

And, although definitely not a bastion of human rights, it is certainly less authoritarian, and more free market oriented than it was 50 years ago

More free market oriented yes, less authoritarian, dunno about this.

Turkey is a Parliamentary Democracy, Im not sure what youre going for there...


Free market orienation was the primary change of course, as it is only nominally less authoritarian...the only reason that China is sustaining itself, imo anyway, is economic prosperity...

[Pevisopolis]

National Socialist German Worker's Party

I'll break this up and deal with it one phrase at a time:

National - Pertaining to German, more specifically Aryan, nationals.
Socialist - Socialism was popular among the workers of Germany in the 1930s. Hence, it was somewhat taboo for the Nazis to tack "Socialist" to their name. The party did have sizable Leftist support in the SA; read up on their elimination by looking up the "Night of the Long Knives"
German - See "National"
Worker's - See "Socialism". However, for the sake of Populism, massive appeals were made by the Nazis to the German working class, emphasis on German, by 'recharging' national pride in Germany.

[Lackadaisical2]

So, the distrustful, Anti-eachother's ideology kind of allies?

Yes.

and Id say it would have been after Kai-Shek died even if he had remained in power in China, for the same reasons, economically and politically such a rule cannot be sustained in the modern world...

It's been working for Turkey since the end of the First World War.

And, although definitely not a bastion of human rights, it is certainly less authoritarian, and more free market oriented than it was 50 years ago

More free market oriented yes, less authoritarian, dunno about this.

Turkey is a Parliamentary Democracy, Im not sure what youre going for there...


Free market orienation was the primary change of course, as it is only nominally less authoritarian...the only reason that China is sustaining itself, imo anyway, is economic prosperity...

Governments of most types don't seem to do so well without economic prosperity... The only difference is if the people vote them out of chase them out.

[Nilpnt]

Snip.

Very good answer. One part got me though.

For which the acceptance of sexual promiscuity/extra-marital shenanigans, the acceptance of unwed mothers, it's strong green/nature/animal conservation policies and oppression of the Church.

Are you talking about Germany?

[Bavin]

Godwin's Law?

[Tunizcha]

Godwin's Law?

[Cybach]

Snip.

Very good answer. One part got me though.

For which the acceptance of sexual promiscuity/extra-marital shenanigans, the acceptance of unwed mothers, it's strong green/nature/animal conservation policies and oppression of the Church.

Are you talking about Germany?

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_reich#Social_Policy

[NotRust]

So, what your basically asking is "If WWII had never happened, would the Nazis and other fascist regimes have survived longer, and possibly influenced other states to move towards fascism?"?

The answer is yes.