Your Point of Divergence

[Farnhamia]

Oh, and answering the question in the OP, I would avoid the Battle of Manzikert, thereby avoiding (or at least delaying) the collapse of the Byzantine Empire in Anatolia, and also avoiding the Crusades - which were called in response to Alexius I's attempt to ask Urban II for western mercenaries to help fight the Turks in Anatolia.

Or even just have the Byzantine ambassadors at the Council of Piacenza be more clear and less dramatic in their appeal for Latin aid. As I understand it, their tactic was basically to do the old: "Jerusalem is in Muslim hands, pilgrims are being defiled, and now the barbarians are at the gate and if we don't stop them Christendom will fall!!!"

I'm not sure it would have helped much. On the other hand, Alexios did invent the facepalm when the First Crusade showed up.

"No, no, that's not what I asked for!"

[Serrland]

Or even just have the Byzantine ambassadors at the Council of Piacenza be more clear and less dramatic in their appeal for Latin aid. As I understand it, their tactic was basically to do the old: "Jerusalem is in Muslim hands, pilgrims are being defiled, and now the barbarians are at the gate and if we don't stop them Christendom will fall!!!"

I'm not sure it would have helped much. On the other hand, Alexios did invent the facepalm when the First Crusade showed up.

"No, no, that's not what I asked for!"

I would pay sooooo much money to see the look on his face when good old Peter the Hermit stumbled onto his land.

[Morrdh]

Everyone's entitled to their own opinions but bare in mind that Cricket is a completely different sport to Baseball and has been around for much much longer.

Well it still seems similar to baseball. But worse. It looks to me like a cross of baseball and bowling.

I can see where you're coming from, but having played both sports I can yes there are similarities as there will be with alot of bat-and-ball sports but at the same time there are differences. At least try a game of it, you may change your opinion you may not...I'm a firm believer in 'don't knock it until you've tried it'.

Admittedly I don't get the point of American Football.

[Bears Armed]

Admittedly I don't get the point of American Football.

It's to help fill in the gaps between sets of adverts on the television...

^_^

[Spiral Sun]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket

Its a popular sport in much of the former British Commonwealth, recalling hearing that attempts were made at getting a cricket league up and running in the US fairly recently.

I didn't know it was possible for an even lamer version of baseball to exist.

Apparently it started once knights fighting on horseback fell out of fashion. The uniforms where based on the coat of arms of those who funded the team/captained it.

[Reine Zukunft]

I'd have it be that instead of the Balkanization of the Ottoman Empire at the close of WWI, the Europeans would set up an at least semi-democratic regime there. Probably would have spared the world a lot of grief with Political Instability in the Middle East, and would have at least stalled the rise of autocratic regimes in the Arab World. Probably would have made Oil a little bit cheaper too.

[Wisconsin7]

Well it still seems similar to baseball. But worse. It looks to me like a cross of baseball and bowling.

Admittedly I don't get the point of American Football.

Advertising and three hours of watching men beat each other up for a small, oblong leather object.

[Aeyariss]

My own history.

[The Archregimancy]

Oh, and answering the question in the OP, I would avoid the Battle of Manzikert, thereby avoiding (or at least delaying) the collapse of the Byzantine Empire in Anatolia, and also avoiding the Crusades - which were called in response to Alexius I's attempt to ask Urban II for western mercenaries to help fight the Turks in Anatolia.

Or even just have the Byzantine ambassadors at the Council of Piacenza be more clear and less dramatic in their appeal for Latin aid. As I understand it, their tactic was basically to do the old: "Jerusalem is in Muslim hands, pilgrims are being defiled, and now the barbarians are at the gate and if we don't stop them Christendom will fall!!!"

Hmmm... the problem is we don't really know what Alexius said in his letter as the only surviving version (Alexius' letter to Robert of Flanders) is quite likely a forgery, or perhaps it would be better to say a Western exagerrated version forming an ex post facto justification for the Crusades.

You can read an English translation (with some scholarly commentary) here: http://www.crusades-encyclopedia.com/le ... exius.html

Certainly that letter's in keeping with your interpretation. It's just likely not what Alexius actually wrote.


Anna Comnena - admittedly not an unbiased source - doesn't record any letter from Alexius to Urban II, or any Western prince. She writes that the First Crusade was entirely Western in inspiration, with no recorded input from her father. Or as Book X of the Alexiad says:

Before he [Alexius] had enjoyed even a short rest, he heard a report of the approach of innumerable Frankish armies. Now he dreaded their arrival for he knew their irresistible manner of attack, their unstable and mobile character and all the peculiar natural and concomitant characteristics which the Frank retains throughout; and he also knew that they were always agape for money, and seemed to disregard their truces readily for any reason that cropped up. For he had always heard this reported of them, and found it very true. However, he did not lose heart, but prepared himself in every way so that, when the occasion called, he would be ready for battle. And indeed the actual facts were far greater and more terrible than rumour made them. For the whole of the West and all the barbarian tribes which dwell between the further side of the Adriatic and the pillars of Heracles, had all migrated in a body and were marching into Asia through the intervening Europe, and were making the journey with all their household. The reason of this upheaval was more or less the following. A certain Frank, Peter by name, nicknamed Cucupeter [*= Peter of the Cowl], had gone to worship at the Holy Sepulchre and after suffering many things at the hands of the Turks and Saracens who were ravaging Asia, he got back to his own country with difficulty. But he was angry at having failed in his object, and wanted to undertake the same journey again. However, he saw that he ought not to make the journey to the Holy Sepulchre alone again, lest worse things befall him, so he worked out a cunning plan. This was to preach in all the Latin countries that ' the voice of God bids me announce to all the Counts in France that they should all leave their homes and set out to worship at the Holy Sepulchre, and to endeavour wholeheartedly with hand and mind to deliver Jerusalem from the hand of the Hagarenes.' And he really succeeded. For after inspiring the souls of all with this quasi-divine command he contrived to assemble the Franks from all sides, one after the other, with arms, horses and all the other paraphernalia of war. And they were all so zealous and eager that every highroad was full of them. And those Frankish soldiers were accompanied by an unarmed host more numerous than the sand or the stars, carrying palms and crosses on their shoulders; women and children, too, came away from their countries. And the sight of them was like many rivers streaming from all sides, and they were advancing towards us through Dacia generally with all their hosts.

At the very least, the First Crusade came as a terrible surprise to the Byzantines; to what extent that's down to a lack of clarity in Alexius' original appeal for mercenaries, though, is open to question.

It's worth noting that there'd been a general increase of Western pilgrimage to Palestine in the 11th century, so it's fair to note that there would have been a growing awareness in the West by the 1080s and 1090s of the implications of Muslim control of the Christian holy places, particularly in the wake of the Fatimid Caliph Hakim's attempt to destroy the Holy Sepulchre (a rather uncharacteristic action on the part of Muslim rulers who saw Christian pilgrimage as a revenue raiser, it should be emphasised). This, as partially described in the Alexiad, undoubtedly fed into Western perceptions of what an appeal from Eastern Christians meant in practice.

[The Archregimancy]

I'm not sure it would have helped much. On the other hand, Alexios did invent the facepalm when the First Crusade showed up.

"No, no, that's not what I asked for!"

I would pay sooooo much money to see the look on his face when good old Peter the Hermit stumbled onto his land.

I don't know about the look on his face (I was taking care of some personal business in Thessalonica that particular day), but his daughter was fairly sniffy:

"Meanwhile Peter, after he had delivered his message, crossed the straits of Lombardy before anybody else with eighty thousand men on foot, and one hundred thousand on horseback, and reached the capital by way of Hungary. For the Frankish race, as one may conjecture, is always very hotheaded and eager, but when once it has espoused a cause, it is uncontrollable."

She was rather taken with Bohemund, though.

[Spiral Sun]

I'd have it be that instead of the Balkanization of the Ottoman Empire at the close of WWI, the Europeans would set up an at least semi-democratic regime there. Probably would have spared the world a lot of grief with Political Instability in the Middle East, and would have at least stalled the rise of autocratic regimes in the Arab World. Probably would have made Oil a little bit cheaper too.

The Arabs of the Levant wanted to be an American mandate, though that report and the tens of thousands of signatures from town leaders were buried and ignored. The British had talked among themselves about whether the Americans should be offered Mandateship over German East Africa(They didn't want to let them) or Palestine(The British got Jews to suggest the British instead of international oversight).

[Morrdh]

Admittedly I don't get the point of American Football.

Advertising and three hours of watching men beat each other up for a small, oblong leather object.

Might as well watch rugby to be honest, its pretty much the same sans the adverts and all that armour but with more eye-watering injuries.

[Farnhamia]

I'm not sure it would have helped much. On the other hand, Alexios did invent the facepalm when the First Crusade showed up.

"No, no, that's not what I asked for!"

I would pay sooooo much money to see the look on his face when good old Peter the Hermit stumbled onto his land.

I know, so would I. My correspondents in Constantinople at the Court said they were afraid the Emperor would have a stroke. I was living in Provence at the time, Frejus and Arles, depending on my mood, and after the Pope's speech calling for the crusade it seemed as if the world had turned upside down. Half the men on my farm went off after Peter the Hermit and half of them took their families. It was difficult not to be caught up in the enthusiasm and though I was not of a mind to go haring off to fight the infidels, I did contribute a fair amount to the financing of those who did, my people and some of the local nobles. And of course, Count Raymond of Toulouse was Margrave of Provence at the time, making the crusading movement that much more personal, as I knew and liked him. He'd fought against the Moors in Spain prior to 1096, but the transformation in him after listening to Pope Urban was quite amazing.

*muses on memories of long-ago*

Yeah. The Crusades. Anyway, if the First Crusade couldn't be avoided, perhaps it could have been altered to fit Alexios' intent, an army of trained men to help him drive the Seljuks out of Anatolia. The Holy Land could wait, but the loss of Anatolia deprived the Empire of its main source of soldiers.

[Doppio Giudici]

The French Revolution fails.

It did in the end

[Doppio Giudici]

We won the Mexican-American War

I thought we won that war.

[Farnhamia]

The French Revolution fails.

It did in the end

I think he means at the beginning, before the King and Queen were killed.

[The Archregimancy]

I would pay sooooo much money to see the look on his face when good old Peter the Hermit stumbled onto his land.

I know, so would I. My correspondents in Constantinople at the Court said they were afraid the Emperor would have a stroke.

As I noted in my previous post, I was in Thessalonica when Peter turned up, taking care of some personal business involving a nun and an orphanage I'd rather not discuss in further detail. But yes, the Basileus was furious. That said, he did try and treat Peter well; the Emperor was an honorable man. It certainly wasn't the Basileus' fault that Peter didn't wait for the main army before setting off into Anatolia.

And let me tell you, the news that Peter was returning rather sheepishly a little while later after the Turks had cut his 'army' to ribbons came to us in the tzykanisterion during a polo game; at dinner afterwards we allowed ourselves a little chuckle over our silver wine goblets at how things had turned out. Some centuries later, the Germans would call it 'schadenfreude'; at the time we merely called it 'God's just judgement on illiterate Frankish peasants'.

[Bears Armed]

I'd have it be that instead of the Balkanization of the Ottoman Empire at the close of WWI, the Europeans would set up an at least semi-democratic regime there. Probably would have spared the world a lot of grief with Political Instability in the Middle East, and would have at least stalled the rise of autocratic regimes in the Arab World. Probably would have made Oil a little bit cheaper too.

The Arabs of the Levant wanted to be an American mandate, though that report and the tens of thousands of signatures from town leaders were buried and ignored. The British had talked among themselves about whether the Americans should be offered Mandateship over German East Africa(They didn't want to let them) or Palestine(The British got Jews to suggest the British instead of international oversight).

Considering that America wouldn't even join the League of Nations, despite that organisation being their own president's idea, how likely is it that they'd actually have accepted an offer to let them hold any such mandate? Seriously?

[Wisconsin7]

We won the Mexican-American War

I thought we won that war.

I believe he's Mexican.

[Spiral Sun]

The Arabs of the Levant wanted to be an American mandate, though that report and the tens of thousands of signatures from town leaders were buried and ignored. The British had talked among themselves about whether the Americans should be offered Mandateship over German East Africa(They didn't want to let them) or Palestine(The British got Jews to suggest the British instead of international oversight).

Considering that America wouldn't even join the League of Nations, despite that organisation being their own president's idea, how likely is it that they'd actually have accepted an offer to let them hold any such mandate? Seriously?

That being the point. They were the ones to constantly try to get out of their own colonies and would be more likely to give them independence unlike what the French did, which was bomb the Syrian capital after the British, Americans, and Free French all recognized their independence. As for not joining it, it was because Woodrow Wilson compromised only with European powers and refused to accept the terms by Congress that military actions and declarations of war were for the American government and people. Something which plenty of other countries later did, with France pulling out of NATO militarily while still claiming they had full rights.

[Farnhamia]

I know, so would I. My correspondents in Constantinople at the Court said they were afraid the Emperor would have a stroke.

As I noted in my previous post, I was in Thessalonica when Peter turned up, taking care of some personal business involving a nun and an orphanage I'd rather not discuss in further detail. But yes, the Basileus was furious. That said, he did try and treat Peter well; the Emperor was an honorable man. It certainly wasn't the Basileus' fault that Peter didn't wait for the main army before setting off into Anatolia.

And let me tell you, the news that Peter was returning rather sheepishly a little while later after the Turks had cut his 'army' to ribbons came to us in the tzykanisterion during a polo game; at dinner afterwards we allowed ourselves a little chuckle over our silver wine goblets at how things had turned out. Some centuries later, the Germans would call it 'schadenfreude'; at the time we merely called it 'God's just judgement on illiterate Frankish peasants'.

Alexios was an honorable man, yes (I heard less glowing things about the Porphyrogenita Anna). And I imagine there was more than a little desire to send Peter on his way, seeing as how the People's Army had a very difficult time behaving. And while I'm sure that was a satisfying little chuckle, Arch, several of my people were among those ribbons the Turks strewed about the countryside. I had told them, after failing to convince them to wait and go East with Count Raymond, that I expected to hear from them when they reached the City. I told them that there were scribes who would write a letter for them and merchants who would bring it west to me. I also gave them your name but I doubt any of them managed to find you, seeing as how you were in Thessalonika and anyway, they were fairly low down the food chain.

Two of them, brothers, survived and did get to Jerusalem, and even sent me some letters from there. They eventually ended up with some land near Acre and I kept tabs on the family until the 13th century.

[Spiral Sun]

I thought we won that war.

I believe he's Mexican.

Obviously not from one of the many breakaway portions of the country or the barely inhabited northern territories. Both of which made up a half of the land and population of that loose confederation.

[The Archregimancy]

And while I'm sure that was a satisfying little chuckle, Arch, several of my people were among those ribbons the Turks strewed about the countryside.

That's the history of our lives, alas - sometimes you're on the right side, sometimes you're on the wrong side. Swings and roundabouts. Look at it this way... I needed a chuckle after spending the best part of 20 years wringing my hands in despair over my role in the deposition of Romanus IV (though I take some consolation in knowing I wasn't the only person taken in by Psellus, the old charlatan). And I certainly had my comeuppance in May 1453.

I also gave them your name but I doubt any of them managed to find you, seeing as how you were in Thessalonika and anyway, they were fairly low down the food chain.

Allow me to apologise a millenium on for missing them. It really was fairly pressing personal business; certainly I couldn't let the Court know about the ... issues. But yes, it would have been unlikely that one of the Protospatharoi would have been introduced to Provencal peasants, even if they had been able to deliver a letter to one of my secretaries prior to my return to The City. I mean, they might have put their grubby Provencal paws all over my maniakion!

[Farnhamia]

And while I'm sure that was a satisfying little chuckle, Arch, several of my people were among those ribbons the Turks strewed about the countryside.

That's the history of our lives, alas - sometimes you're on the right side, sometimes you're on the wrong side. Swings and roundabouts. Look at it this way... I needed a chuckle after spending the best part of 20 years wringing my hands in despair over my role in the deposition of Romanus IV (though I take some consolation in knowing I wasn't the only person taken in by Psellus, the old charlatan). And I certainly had my comeuppance in May 1453.

I also gave them your name but I doubt any of them managed to find you, seeing as how you were in Thessalonika and anyway, they were fairly low down the food chain.

Allow me to apologise a millenium on for missing them. It really was fairly pressing personal business; certainly I couldn't let the Court know about the ... issues. But yes, it would have been unlikely that one of the Protospatharoi would have been introduced to Provencal peasants, even if they had been able to deliver a letter to one of my secretaries prior to my return to The City. I mean, they might have put their grubby Provencal paws all over my maniakion!

No, please, I didn't mean to blame you, not at all. I'm pretty sure they didn't even try. I only wrote you down for them in case things got seriously desperate, not with any real hope you'd even be in the general vicinity. If you recall, we'd lost touch for a few centuries. I'd been in Spain since the 10th century and before that in Central Asia and the Far East since the 8th. Not a big deal.

[Zottistan]

The early death of Vladimir Lenin. That's what caused the USSR to come to shit, and communism to turn into fascism with a new name.