Abortion

[Holy Geneva]

Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion.

Human Life begins at conception and the Word of God clearly forbids the unlawful taking of life. No one has the right to decide when a life ends, not even if it is their own. It is Almighty God who shall determine the when to give life and when to take it away, and none other.

[Condunum]

So I'm assuming that the ONLY time you have sex is with an ovulating woman? Who you have verbal and written confirmation intends to take the pregnancy to term, no matter what the risks?

I don't create life to kill it.

Also, if you're having sex with someone you don't want kids with, you're probably doing it wrong.

Not really.

[Saint Jade IV]

So I'm assuming that the ONLY time you have sex is with an ovulating woman? Who you have verbal and written confirmation intends to take the pregnancy to term, no matter what the risks?

I don't create life to kill it.

Also, if you're having sex with someone you don't want kids with, you're probably doing it wrong.

I'll requote you:

Intercourse has a purpose, procreation. We don't have genitals for the lulz.

So, by your own words, the only purpose for intercourse is for procreation. Not for fun, not for enjoyment, for procreation. Therefore the only time you should be fucking anything is when there is the highest chance of procreation. By your own words. So the fact that you are now admitting that you use a condom when you have sex indicates that you don't hold consistently to your beliefs. You're having sex for reasons which you have explicitly stated are diametrically opposed to the purposes of intercourse. In fact, you undertake actions to counteract the only purpose you claim intercourse has. Yet you wish to deny women the same right.

[Zephie]

I don't create life to kill it.

Also, if you're having sex with someone you don't want kids with, you're probably doing it wrong.

I'll requote you:

Intercourse has a purpose, procreation. We don't have genitals for the lulz.

So, by your own words, the only purpose for intercourse is for procreation. Not for fun, not for enjoyment, for procreation. Therefore the only time you should be fucking anything is when there is the highest chance of procreation. By your own words. So the fact that you are now admitting that you use a condom when you have sex indicates that you don't hold consistently to your beliefs. You're having sex for reasons which you have explicitly stated are diametrically opposed to the purposes of intercourse. In fact, you undertake actions to counteract the only purpose you claim intercourse has. Yet you wish to deny women the same right.

Wot? I never said any of that.

[Condunum]

Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion.

Human Life begins at conception and the Word of God clearly forbids the unlawful taking of life. No one has the right to decide when a life ends, not even if it is their own. It is Almighty God who shall determine the when to give life and when to take it away, and none other.

Too bad the word of god has no say in the law.

[Saint Jade IV]

I'll requote you:



So, by your own words, the only purpose for intercourse is for procreation. Not for fun, not for enjoyment, for procreation. Therefore the only time you should be fucking anything is when there is the highest chance of procreation. By your own words. So the fact that you are now admitting that you use a condom when you have sex indicates that you don't hold consistently to your beliefs. You're having sex for reasons which you have explicitly stated are diametrically opposed to the purposes of intercourse. In fact, you undertake actions to counteract the only purpose you claim intercourse has. Yet you wish to deny women the same right.

Wot? I never said any of that.

I'll quote you again:

Intercourse has a purpose, procreation. We don't have genitals for the lulz.

"Intercourse has a purpose, procreation." Not sure how to read that other than: the purpose to intercourse is procreation. Since no other purpose is listed, and you used the definite article, "a", it's not surprising that one would assume the only purpose you believe intercourse has is for procreation.

"We don't have genitals for the lulz." This statement suggests that genitals are not there for our amusement. Taken in the context of your previous statement regarding the purpose of intercourse, it is not a radical assumption to suggest that you do not believe that sex should be undertaken for the purposes of fun, or enjoyment.

Yet you subsequently imply that you take precautions to prevent procreation, the "purpose" of intercourse.

[Saint Jade IV]

Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion.

Human Life begins at conception and the Word of God clearly forbids the unlawful taking of life. No one has the right to decide when a life ends, not even if it is their own. It is Almighty God who shall determine the when to give life and when to take it away, and none other.

I'm assuming that you are anti-abortion even when both mother and baby will die?

Furthermore, thankfully abortion in most places adheres to the word of God. It's legal, you see. Therefore, it's not the unlawful taking of life.

Phew. All you Christians should be thanking the Supreme Court for making abortion acceptable to God.

[Condunum]

Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion.

Human Life begins at conception and the Word of God clearly forbids the unlawful taking of life. No one has the right to decide when a life ends, not even if it is their own. It is Almighty God who shall determine the when to give life and when to take it away, and none other.

I'm assuming that you are anti-abortion even when both mother and baby will die?

Furthermore, thankfully abortion in most places adheres to the word of God. It's legal, you see. Therefore, it's not the unlawful taking of life.

Phew. All you Christians should be thanking the Supreme Court for making abortion acceptable to God.

But that's taking women one step away from being submissive to their husbands, which is part of the christian faith.

[Risottia]

Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion.
Human Life begins at conception and the Word of God clearly forbids the unlawful taking of life. No one has the right to decide when a life ends, not even if it is their own. It is Almighty God who shall determine the when to give life and when to take it away, and none other.

Do you mean to enforce your religious views on other people, too?

Damn, these Iranian ayatollahs are getting uppity.

[Risottia]

Pro-life. No matter what, rape, stupidity, unsafe. A child is a child. He or she is living thing. I don't care if science says its not living or if it endangers. It is nothing but plain cold death of a child. IT IS MURDER. Take this to mind all of you. Not a fetus... a living breathing child.

If a foetus would breathe, it would inhale amniotic liquid, which isn't exactly nice (have you ever been near to a birthing woman?) and can cause foetal pneumonia - eventually lethal.

You fail human anatomy forever.

[Risottia]

Why?

because "my condom broke" or "I just fucked some guy without protection" are when you're supposed to go to an adoption center.

You seem to forget there's about 9 months between "my condom broke" and "yo, I've got a newborn, you can have it".

[Risottia]

Go talk to someone who has actually had an aborted relative.

Technically, only people can be relatives.

they will tell you that they are pro-life. Why? because their sibling got killed. And that's all abortion is.

Bullshit. And I talk by direct experience.

[Risottia]

Their siblings were also killed all the other times their parents had sex and the zygote was aborted before it was detectable. Are they against all methods of reproduction aside from in vitro fertilization?

You don't understand: killing a foetus is GOOD if GOD did it.

[Risottia]

Pro-life. A fetus is a unique, living human individual. That's enough to be considered a person in my book.

Ok.
Then I have the right, as a person, to force you to carry me around for nine months while I feast on your blood and expel my excrements through your urinary system.

[Risottia]

If things that were personal choice were not made illegal then society would be terrible, bank robbery is a choice should we legalise that? Or how about assualt, murder, rape, mugging, theft, or other crimes?

"Crime" involves two people (or two legal personae).
A foetus isn't a person.

False analogy.

If you outlaw abortion then that will discurage people from having them,

Historical data shows this is not the case.

and having a capital punishment for it would be better.

Considering that capital punishment means killing someone who can't fight back anymore, I declare you, by your own words, to be "plain sick".

calling a fetus a parasite is trolling

Proof or apologies.

[Whakeheke]

She doesn't need an excuse. She doesn't need to provide anybody with a reason.

You can't really just say "Here's a condom, now go screw all your friends. If it doesn't work out, theres an abortion clinic right across the street. We'll kill it for you"
Go talk to someone who has actually had an aborted relative. they will tell you that they are pro-life. Why? because their sibling got killed. And that's all abortion is.

Abortion is a choice that is not taken lightly, and it is not risk-free. There are surely ignorant people who think it's a walk in the park, but it is a traumatic experience for the mother-to-be. This is well-documented. Depression occurs at much higher rates for women who've had at least one abortion, and some exhibit post-traumatic stress disorder. There are also health issues - the risk of a perforated internal organ, of cancer (!!), and of complications for a subsequent pregnancy are all higher. Abortion is not a walk in the park. Period.

Abortion is a serious fucking thing and most people who do it do it for serious fucking reasons and even if they don't many of them encounter the serious fucking consequences. My mother aborted a child before she had me, and she's STILL clinically depressed, even now. Before abortion was legal, and safer methods for it were developed, women sought back-alley abortions - that's where the "coat hanger" joke comes from. These back-alley abortions carried far greater risks. Women would sometimes be injured internally and die from untreated sepsis. Sometimes the "doctor" would perforate an organ and they would bleed to death. Because these abortions were by necessity outside of the law, the women put themselves at risk for rape and murder to get the abortion.

But guess what, women did it anyway. Because sometimes, a woman just can't handle having another kid. "Put it up for adoption!" Pregnancy has its own set of risks and complications, and the adoption system is ALREADY flooded with kids who don't have parents or homes. To say "just put them up for adoption" is cowardly and an injustice to the many children already lost in an overcrowded system.

[Whakeheke]

What the fuck are you talking about?

None of you have been in the least bit tolerent of those with different belifes, ive given more than a good debate and here you all go claim me wrong, troll pro lifers (calling a fetus a parasite is trolling), make personal attacks, find somthing better to do, stop wasting your damn time in a never changing cycle, your just dodging the rules, trolling, making personal attacks, and wasting time. Your never changing your beliefs, im never changing mine so lets leave it at that and go home. Read a god dang book or somthing, there are millions of better things to be doing.

A fetus, curiously enough, fits the definition of a parasite while it's still a fetus (it actively harms the host to obtain its own sustenance). Furthermore, the human body actually treats a fetus as a parasite - really fascinating research on this, I think I read this in Carl Zimmer's Parasite Rex (which is just a generally good book on parasites of all persuasions). Fetuses are attacked by the body's immune system as it develops, and the fetus has certain defenses against these immune attacks. Certain parasites, such as viruses, use the same sort of genetic defenses as a human fetus to infest a human body.

I don't actually think a human fetus is a parasite, but there are really interesting biological parallels. They don't mean anything, but it's interesting stuff to think about.

[Saint Jade IV]

You can't really just say "Here's a condom, now go screw all your friends. If it doesn't work out, theres an abortion clinic right across the street. We'll kill it for you"
Go talk to someone who has actually had an aborted relative. they will tell you that they are pro-life. Why? because their sibling got killed. And that's all abortion is.

Abortion is a choice that is not taken lightly, and it is not risk-free. There are surely ignorant people who think it's a walk in the park, but it is a traumatic experience for the mother-to-be. This is well-documented. Depression occurs at much higher rates for women who've had at least one abortion, and some exhibit post-traumatic stress disorder. There are also health issues - the risk of a perforated internal organ, of cancer (!!), and of complications for a subsequent pregnancy are all higher. Abortion is not a walk in the park. Period.

Abortion is a serious fucking thing and most people who do it do it for serious fucking reasons and even if they don't many of them encounter the serious fucking consequences. My mother aborted a child before she had me, and she's STILL clinically depressed, even now. Before abortion was legal, and safer methods for it were developed, women sought back-alley abortions - that's where the "coat hanger" joke comes from. These back-alley abortions carried far greater risks. Women would sometimes be injured internally and die from untreated sepsis. Sometimes the "doctor" would perforate an organ and they would bleed to death. Because these abortions were by necessity outside of the law, the women put themselves at risk for rape and murder to get the abortion.

But guess what, women did it anyway. Because sometimes, a woman just can't handle having another kid. "Put it up for adoption!" Pregnancy has its own set of risks and complications, and the adoption system is ALREADY flooded with kids who don't have parents or homes. To say "just put them up for adoption" is cowardly and an injustice to the many children already lost in an overcrowded system.

No, no see. Those dirty shameless whores need to be taught a lesson. How dare they think they have rights over their own body? Next thing, they'll want the vote

[The Pretend Pub]

Nope. A fetus is a fetus or else they wouldn't be called a fetus.

A fetus is a person without a fully developed body. Who are you to decide who is a person and who is not?

I'm not deciding it; reality is.

[The Pretend Pub]

Wahahaaaa Wtf?
the "Foetuses rights" or "Mothers rights"?
1. If the mother gets forced against her "rights" to go on with the pregnancy, she'll have those hormonal unbalance things for 9 months, and a load of pain at the end.
2. if the "foetus" gets aborted against his rights, He dies.

Except a fetus doesn't have rights, because it's not a person. It's morally indistinguishable from a tumor or a tapeworm.

And even if we accept that a fetus is a person, so what? No other person has a right to literally eat the flesh from its mother's bones, so why should a fetus have a right to do essentially the same thing?

[The Pretend Pub]

If a woman doesn't want a baby, then she shouldn't be having unprotected sex.

Or, she can have unprotected sex, and get an abortion. Either way, she's happy.

The child shouldn't be punished because its parents weren't responsible enough.

There's no child to punish, because the fetus isn't a person.

[The Pretend Pub]

So I'm assuming that the ONLY time you have sex is with an ovulating woman? Who you have verbal and written confirmation intends to take the pregnancy to term, no matter what the risks?

I don't create life to kill it.

Let's say someone has cancer. The tumors are certainly alive. Should they then refrain from killing the tumors?

Also, if you're having sex with someone you don't want kids with, you're probably doing it wrong.

Not necessarily. Maybe that's just their particular kink.

[The Pretend Pub]

Why should there be pro-life and pro-choice only? It makes much more sense to have both, that is to say time limits on abortion. This is not reflected in the poll at all.

Women should be able to choose whether or not they have an abortion but once you get to the point that the foetus could survive, when born, quite easily things are different. I say 24 weeks, this is over half-way and is more than enough time to make a choice.

I don't see why. As long as it's in their body, it remains a parasite.

[The Pretend Pub]

Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion.

You can't be both pro-life and anti-abortion, since anti-abortion is in truth anti-life, as it puts a parasite ahead of an actual person.

[The Pretend Pub]

Pro-Life and Anti-Abortion.

Human Life begins at conception and the Word of God clearly forbids the unlawful taking of life. No one has the right to decide when a life ends, not even if it is their own. It is Almighty God who shall determine the when to give life and when to take it away, and none other.

I'm assuming that you are anti-abortion even when both mother and baby will die?

Furthermore, thankfully abortion in most places adheres to the word of God. It's legal, you see. Therefore, it's not the unlawful taking of life.

Phew. All you Christians should be thanking the Supreme Court for making abortion acceptable to God.

I've long argued that opposition to abortion is an intrinsically un-Christian position, since it displays a lack of brotherly (sisterly?) love for the woman in question.