Abortion

[Thatchland]

I have supplied new data constantly to this debate. I have directly answered questions you have asked and I have directly answered questions from others. You are putting using a generality on me that is not true. Absolutely false.

If you are going to be more biast than George W Bush than im finding somthing else to do.

You have stated you were leaving several times now - again, it is when you have been faced with facts and information that you are unable to refute ... the "door" is right over there ...

However, if you would like a reminder of my worthless contributions before you go, here's a sample:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8767328#p8767328
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8767451#p8767451
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8768233#p8768233
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8768544#p8768544
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8768782#p8768782
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8768944#p8768944
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8769067#p8769067
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8769193#p8769193
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8769508#p8769508
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8769536#p8769536

PS: First time in my life I have ever been compared to GW Bush. HOLY COW Hell is freezing over!

[The Steel Magnolia]

What the fuck are you talking about?

None of you have been in the least bit tolerent of those with different belifes, ive given more than a good debate and here you all go claim me wrong, troll pro lifers (calling a fetus a parasite is trolling), make personal attacks, find somthing better to do, stop wasting your damn time in a never changing cycle, your just dodging the rules, trolling, making personal attacks, and wasting time. Your never changing your beliefs, im never changing mine so lets leave it at that and go home. Read a god dang book or somthing, there are millions of better things to be doing.

No, no, it's really, really not. Not to mention that you aren't responding to any of the points raised, and are merely sidestepping the issues. If you want a debate, go ahead, but repeatedly claiming it is pointless is not the way to do it.

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

None of you have been in the least bit tolerent of those with different belifes, ive given more than a good debate and here you all go claim me wrong, troll pro lifers (calling a fetus a parasite is trolling), make personal attacks, find somthing better to do, stop wasting your damn time in a never changing cycle, your just dodging the rules, trolling, making personal attacks, and wasting time. Your never changing your beliefs, im never changing mine so lets leave it at that and go home. Read a god dang book or somthing, there are millions of better things to be doing.

No, no, it's really, really not. Not to mention that you aren't responding to any of the points raised, and are merely sidestepping the issues. If you want a debate, go ahead, but repeatedly claiming it is pointless is not the way to do it.

Ok maybe i miss one or two posts by somone, there are a lot of posts made and i only have time to respond to so many at a time.

[Thatchland]

Also, to follow up on actual number of deaths each year:

Have any data on developed nations? If Africa and Asia account for 95% of the deaths...well, those two locations aren't exactly bastions of modern medicine, with a few exceptions. (Japan, China, South Africa.)

I could break down the data after pulling it from this document http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03_033.pdf but if you are truly interested ... there's the link

[IshCong]

If you are going to be more biast than George W Bush than im finding somthing else to do.

You have stated you were leaving several times now - again, it is when you have been faced with facts and information that you are unable to refute ... the "door" is right over there ...

However, if you would like a reminder of my worthless contributions before you go, here's a sample:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8767328#p8767328
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8767451#p8767451
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8768233#p8768233
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8768544#p8768544
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8768782#p8768782
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8768944#p8768944
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8769067#p8769067
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8769193#p8769193
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8769508#p8769508
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=170142&p=8769536#p8769536

PS: First time in my life I have ever been compared to GW Bush. HOLY COW Hell is freezing over!

If Hell is freezing over, why I do I have to have the fan on right now?

[The Steel Magnolia]

No, no, it's really, really not. Not to mention that you aren't responding to any of the points raised, and are merely sidestepping the issues. If you want a debate, go ahead, but repeatedly claiming it is pointless is not the way to do it.

Ok maybe i miss one or two posts by somone, there are a lot of posts made and i only have time to respond to so many at a time.

Then don't claim that we're repeating our arguments, making personal attacks, trolling, or wasting time. Seriously, I'm all for a respectful, well researched debate, but you need to be a part of that too! Sources, adequate responses to all questions, and respect for your opponents is part and parcel of that, and so far, you've provided none of it.

[IshCong]

Have any data on developed nations? If Africa and Asia account for 95% of the deaths...well, those two locations aren't exactly bastions of modern medicine, with a few exceptions. (Japan, China, South Africa.)

I could break down the data after pulling it from this document http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_03/sr03_033.pdf but if you are truly interested ... there's the link

Thankee.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Pro-choice. It is solely the woman's prerogative to do what she considers is best for herself, medically and mentally. It is no the state's business to decide that for her, or her family.

[Desperate Measures]

I'd make the choice to save the one person. I feel like the pro-life position is to walk away and say, "Well, I guess that situation will work itself out then."

My point is, in the case of fetus in fetu, pro-life means the preservation of as much human life as possible. Not the preservation of a genetically similar parasite that will die, regardless of what is, or is not, done.

However, fetus in fetu and pregnancy are two completely different, and not comparable, scenarios. Fetus in fetu will always have at least half of those involved die. Pregnancies, especially in Western societies, will generally have both mother and child survive. In addition, a child can become self-sustaining. A FIF can not.

But I was using fetus in fetu to demonstrate that just because something is living and human doesn't mean that it trumps the rights of the host. Sadly for my point, you took it to this logical conclusion which any rational person would see has only one answer.

[Camicon]

My point is, in the case of fetus in fetu, pro-life means the preservation of as much human life as possible. Not the preservation of a genetically similar parasite that will die, regardless of what is, or is not, done.

However, fetus in fetu and pregnancy are two completely different, and not comparable, scenarios. Fetus in fetu will always have at least half of those involved die. Pregnancies, especially in Western societies, will generally have both mother and child survive. In addition, a child can become self-sustaining. A FIF can not.

But I was using fetus in fetu to demonstrate that just because something is living and human doesn't mean that it trumps the rights of the host. Sadly for my point, you took it to this logical conclusion which any rational person would see has only one answer.

Well, in that case I apologize for coming to a logical and rational conclusion.

[IshCong]

But I was using fetus in fetu to demonstrate that just because something is living and human doesn't mean that it trumps the rights of the host. Sadly for my point, you took it to this logical conclusion which any rational person would see has only one answer.

Well, in that case I apologize for coming to a logical and rational conclusion.

Don't you know this is NSG? Logic and reason are not permissible here. Careful now...

[Desperate Measures]

But I was using fetus in fetu to demonstrate that just because something is living and human doesn't mean that it trumps the rights of the host. Sadly for my point, you took it to this logical conclusion which any rational person would see has only one answer.

Well, in that case I apologize for coming to a logical and rational conclusion.

It's just... you see, we don't do that on NSG.

Edit: Arrgh Ninja'd

[Thatchland]

What the fuck are you talking about?

None of you have been in the least bit tolerent of those with different belifes, ive given more than a good debate and here you all go claim me wrong, troll pro lifers (calling a fetus a parasite is trolling), make personal attacks, find somthing better to do, stop wasting your damn time in a never changing cycle, your just dodging the rules, trolling, making personal attacks, and wasting time. Your never changing your beliefs, im never changing mine so lets leave it at that and go home. Read a god dang book or somthing, there are millions of better things to be doing.

Ok.

• I have never called a fetus a parasite.
• A good debate relies upon solid, fact-based arguments - not gut-based or opinions.
• In a good debate you are encouraged to state your opinions, but you must be able to give sources to support your opinion. Without doing so, you're arguments are considered invalid.
• I have not claimed you are wrong - but I have provided documentation, where possible, to refute baseless claims which you make
• I have stated several times that you have done nothing but repeat the same mantra, without adding new sufficient material and can even provide evidence of this (though others have already pointed it out to you, as well)
• We haven't been dodging the 'rules' as there are no 'rules' to dodge - the only 'rules' are common expectations during a debate (see above for expectations)
• Again, no one is keeping you here against your will. You have the CHOICE to stay or go. You have the CHOICE to continue in this topic or to abort participation. It is your CHOICE, no one is banning you from exercising that which is rightly YOUR CHOICE

[Zephie]

Pro life. If you don't want to kill babies, don't have them. Simple.

(BUT WHAT IF THE FEMALE IS RAPED!?!?!)

Hm, still not sure. But I wouldn't say the child deserves to die because he's unwanted.

[Thatchland]

Well, in that case I apologize for coming to a logical and rational conclusion.

It's just... you see, we don't do that on NSG.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the FIF sub-thread ... thank you two.

[The Aztec Allience]

Pro life. If you don't want to kill babies, don't have them. Simple.

(BUT WHAT IF THE FEMALE IS RAPED!?!?!)

Hm, still not sure. But I wouldn't say the child deserves to die because he's unwanted.

This^.

[Schlauberger]

I'm pro choice till you hit the 3rd month then I'm pro life

At which point all pregnant women lose the right to bodily sovereignty and will be forced to carry the fetus full term no matter what. Even if she didn't find out she was pregnant until 3 months and 1 day into the pregnancy, or that the fetus has implanted into her fallopian tubes and will slowly kill her, or that her husband left her with 4 kids and all of the marital debt and she simply can't afford to keep the baby.

I've never understood this line of logic. Either a woman has the absolute right to control over her body or she doesn't. If she does, then abortion should be an option to all pregnant women regardless of how far along they are. If not, then women are second class citizens for however long you arbitrarily draw a line in the sand.

[Thatchland]

I'm pro choice till you hit the 3rd month then I'm pro life

At which point all pregnant women lose the right to bodily sovereignty and will be forced to carry the fetus full term no matter what. Even if she didn't find out she was pregnant until 3 months and 1 day into the pregnancy, or that the fetus has implanted into her fallopian tubes and will slowly kill her, or that her husband left her with 4 kids and all of the marital debt and she simply can't afford to keep the baby.

I've never understood this line of logic. Either a woman has the absolute right to control over her body or she doesn't. If she does, then abortion should be an option to all pregnant women regardless of how far along they are. If not, then women are second class citizens for however long you arbitrarily draw a line in the sand.

Have you seen this? Georgia Republican Compares Women to Cows, Pigs, And Chickens

[Ningjing]

I'm pro choice till you hit the 3rd month then I'm pro life

At which point all pregnant women lose the right to bodily sovereignty and will be forced to carry the fetus full term no matter what. Even if she didn't find out she was pregnant until 3 months and 1 day into the pregnancy, or that the fetus has implanted into her fallopian tubes and will slowly kill her, or that her husband left her with 4 kids and all of the marital debt and she simply can't afford to keep the baby.

I've never understood this line of logic. Either a woman has the absolute right to control over her body or she doesn't. If she does, then abortion should be an option to all pregnant women regardless of how far along they are. If not, then women are second class citizens for however long you arbitrarily draw a line in the sand.

Third trimester fetuses can feasibly survive outside the womb. I highly doubt a woman would ever not know she was pregnant 3 months in and even then, that is only the second trimester.

[The Pretend Pub]

Pro life. If you don't want to kill babies, don't have them. Simple.

Good thing abortion isn't killing babies, then.

They're parasites, not people.

[Ningjing]

Pro life. If you don't want to kill babies, don't have them. Simple.

(BUT WHAT IF THE FEMALE IS RAPED!?!?!)

Hm, still not sure. But I wouldn't say the child deserves to die because he's unwanted.

This^.

The issue is much more complex than you or the person you agreed with is saying it is though. It is not cut and dry like that.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

At which point all pregnant women lose the right to bodily sovereignty and will be forced to carry the fetus full term no matter what. Even if she didn't find out she was pregnant until 3 months and 1 day into the pregnancy, or that the fetus has implanted into her fallopian tubes and will slowly kill her, or that her husband left her with 4 kids and all of the marital debt and she simply can't afford to keep the baby.

I've never understood this line of logic. Either a woman has the absolute right to control over her body or she doesn't. If she does, then abortion should be an option to all pregnant women regardless of how far along they are. If not, then women are second class citizens for however long you arbitrarily draw a line in the sand.

Third trimester fetuses can feasibly survive outside the womb. I highly doubt a woman would ever not know she was pregnant 3 months in and even then, that is only the second trimester.

It has happened before that a woman didn't know she was pregnant until she felt the birth pangs. It happens more often than you might think.

[Camicon]

It's just... you see, we don't do that on NSG.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the FIF sub-thread ... thank you two.

Well... how about this then:

Obama Bin-Laden is pro-choice, which means he's obviously lying to us about being an American citizen. That means Fox News is the last bastion of truth in Western society, and that all proper God-fearing Americans will vote for Santorum, and then go launch some blessed nukes at North Korea and Iran. In the meantime, all women will be sent back to the kitchen to be the baby makers God told them to be, and us men of God will go out and conduct holy raids on those damned heathen colour-people. Oh, and abortion will be outlawed under penalty of death by stoning (can't forget to bring back the death-by-stoning).

How's that?

[Ningjing]

Third trimester fetuses can feasibly survive outside the womb. I highly doubt a woman would ever not know she was pregnant 3 months in and even then, that is only the second trimester.

It has happened before that a woman didn't know she was pregnant until she felt the birth pangs. It happens more often than you might think.

Citation needed. Also, if a woman doesn't notice that she has missed 3 periods she is an idiot.

[Schlauberger]

Pro life. If you don't want to kill babies, don't have them. Simple.

(BUT WHAT IF THE FEMALE IS RAPED!?!?!)

Hm, still not sure. But I wouldn't say the child deserves to die because he's unwanted.

If you don't like abortion, then invent the technology that would allow the safe transfer of a fetus from a woman unwilling to carry it to term to a willing one. No one, born or unborn, has the right to use the body and organs of a person without their consent, and until that technology comes around, abortion is the only method of getting rid of an unwanted fetus.