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French presidential election, 2012

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Whom would you vote for?

Poll ended at Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:48 am

Nathalie Arthaud (far left)
17
4%
François Bayrou (centre)
42
10%
Jacques Cheminade (far right)
8
2%
Nicolas Dupont-Aignan (right)
10
2%
François Hollande (centre-left)
109
27%
Eva Joly (green left)
10
2%
Marine Le Pen (far right)
47
12%
Jean-Luc Mélenchon (left)
46
11%
Philippe Poutou (far left)
21
5%
Nicolas Sarkozy (right)
92
23%
 
Total votes : 402

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sun May 06, 2012 1:47 pm

Kamany wrote:Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Hollande president!


'Tis good news indeed.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Pesda
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Postby Pesda » Sun May 06, 2012 1:48 pm

I'm happy that Hollande won.
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Laissez-Faire
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Postby Laissez-Faire » Sun May 06, 2012 1:48 pm

Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia wrote:Wealthy people, entrepreneurs, are not regular people. A big amount of them could as well be corrupt, or abusive. It is a good thing capitalism is more regulated than mercantilism, the old time horror version of capitalism.

Mercantilism was far from unregulated. It's entire nature was based around curbing competition through government's special market-bending avenues.

As I said, this stagnation is largely the result of government. Government lays the foundation for these elites to 'slide into place'. However, any company's largest investor is those who buy their products- which is largely, for many companies, directly or indirectly the very people themselves.

Zijeme wrote:
Laissez-Faire wrote:That's actually like, regular people.

Regular people in the sense of satisfying the criteria of Being A Human Being, yeah. That's it.

Tell me Laissez-Faire, are you one of those anarcho-capitalists who "hates democracy"?

I'm disinclined towards the traditional establishment of social democracy, if that's what you are asking. Honestly, what's your point?

New England and The Maritimes wrote:
Laissez-Faire wrote:Monopolies are incorporated by the government. Look at it from an economics standpoint-

A monopoly rises and starts jacking up prices to maximize profits. Not only is it very likely to operate inefficiently, but likely all sorts of demand is going to form towards the incorporation of a competitor- in price and in quality. Not to mention the actions of watchdog groups, although i'll include it as a less permanent variable than it would be just to entertain your viewpoint.

The above is actually a large reason that France itself won't become an open market without more room for private market capitalization.

There's a difference between government negligence and government keeping out of the people's affairs. The free flow of money keeps the chances and privileges of class fairly equal and distributed. In the end, it's all on the government for instituting itself in the first place.


All corporations are chartered by states, ergo states are responsible for every good thing any corporation has ever done. Yay for government!


Nice try, but that didn't work.

A free market has a dynamic of competition. A regulated market has the dynamic of stagnation and monopolization. Ergo, government does not drive the basis of corporate/free market efficiency.
Last edited by Laissez-Faire on Sun May 06, 2012 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sanguinthium wrote:and then the government abolishes itself after its purpose has been served
Vestr-Norig wrote:I'm sorry, I am not familiar with your highbrow words.
Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia wrote:Ah, how heavenly & masturbatable must unregulated capitalism be!
Parpolitic Citizens wrote:You're one of the most disingenuous people I've seen here.
Parpolitic Citizens wrote:Do you see any value in human dignity or happiness? I'm not trolling. I'm seriously wondering if you're a sociopath.

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Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia
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Postby Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia » Sun May 06, 2012 1:49 pm

Laissez-Faire wrote:
Risottia wrote:Not true.

De jure monopolies are governmental stuff. De facto monopolies, instead, are often the market's doing.
As for wealth stagnation / lack of interclass mobility, it can be the effect of a law instituting a caste system, or it could be an effect of the LACK of governmental action against stagnation/class privileges and whatnot.

Monopolies are incorporated by the government. Look at it from an economics standpoint-

A monopoly rises and starts jacking up prices to maximize profits. Not only is it very likely to operate inefficiently, but likely all sorts of demand is going to form towards the incorporation of a competitor- in price and in quality. Not to mention the actions of watchdog groups, although i'll include it as a less permanent variable than it would be just to entertain your viewpoint.

The above is actually a large reason that France itself won't become an open market without more room for private market capitalization.

There's a difference between government negligence and government keeping out of the people's affairs. The free flow of money keeps the chances and privileges of class fairly equal and distributed. In the end, it's all on the government for instituting itself in the first place.


If this underlined statement were true, everyone on this planet would own at least one stealth fighter in their homes, this being a metaphor for one's wealth. If this were true, the world would be full of entrepreneurs.
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Laissez-Faire
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Founded: Oct 29, 2011
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Postby Laissez-Faire » Sun May 06, 2012 1:50 pm

Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia wrote:
Laissez-Faire wrote:Monopolies are incorporated by the government. Look at it from an economics standpoint-

A monopoly rises and starts jacking up prices to maximize profits. Not only is it very likely to operate inefficiently, but likely all sorts of demand is going to form towards the incorporation of a competitor- in price and in quality. Not to mention the actions of watchdog groups, although i'll include it as a less permanent variable than it would be just to entertain your viewpoint.

The above is actually a large reason that France itself won't become an open market without more room for private market capitalization.

There's a difference between government negligence and government keeping out of the people's affairs. The free flow of money keeps the chances and privileges of class fairly equal and distributed. In the end, it's all on the government for instituting itself in the first place.


If this underlined statement were true, everyone on this planet would own at least one stealth fighter in their homes, this being a metaphor for one's wealth. If this were true, the world would be full of entrepreneurs.

That's just the thing. Wealth isn't flowing freely. There isn't a truly free market. Stagnation in France is just the result of that.
Last edited by Laissez-Faire on Sun May 06, 2012 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sanguinthium wrote:and then the government abolishes itself after its purpose has been served
Vestr-Norig wrote:I'm sorry, I am not familiar with your highbrow words.
Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia wrote:Ah, how heavenly & masturbatable must unregulated capitalism be!
Parpolitic Citizens wrote:You're one of the most disingenuous people I've seen here.
Parpolitic Citizens wrote:Do you see any value in human dignity or happiness? I'm not trolling. I'm seriously wondering if you're a sociopath.

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sun May 06, 2012 2:00 pm

Laissez-Faire wrote:That's just the thing. Wealth isn't flowing freely. There isn't a truly free market. Stagnation in France is just the result of that.


No, stagnation is a result of the moral and actual financial failure of capitalism.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Laissez-Faire
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Postby Laissez-Faire » Sun May 06, 2012 2:01 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
Laissez-Faire wrote:That's just the thing. Wealth isn't flowing freely. There isn't a truly free market. Stagnation in France is just the result of that.


No, stagnation is a result of the moral and actual financial failure of state regulated capitalism.

Fixed.

There's a difference between the two.
Last edited by Laissez-Faire on Sun May 06, 2012 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sanguinthium wrote:and then the government abolishes itself after its purpose has been served
Vestr-Norig wrote:I'm sorry, I am not familiar with your highbrow words.
Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia wrote:Ah, how heavenly & masturbatable must unregulated capitalism be!
Parpolitic Citizens wrote:You're one of the most disingenuous people I've seen here.
Parpolitic Citizens wrote:Do you see any value in human dignity or happiness? I'm not trolling. I'm seriously wondering if you're a sociopath.

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Of the Free Socialist Territories
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Postby Of the Free Socialist Territories » Sun May 06, 2012 2:07 pm

Ah yes, unregulated capitalism, where anyone has the right to go out and fleece any other man of his labour power for his personal gain, unregulated capitalism, where money is the absolute focus of a person's life, unregulated capitalism, where the rich can ride roughshod over the wishes of those they exploit, unregulated capitalism, generating instability and market dependency, and unregulated capitalism, which generates a wealthy elite oppressing everyone else. Gotta love that unregulated capitalism.

But I digress, this isn't a debate about the pure evil of capitalism.
Last edited by Of the Free Socialist Territories on Sun May 06, 2012 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't be deceived when our Revolution has finally been stamped out and they tell you things are better now even if there's no poverty to see, because the poverty's been hidden...even if you ever got more wages and could afford to buy more of these new and useless goods which these new industries foist on you, and even if it seems to you that "you never had so much" - that is only the slogan of those who have much more than you.

Marat, "Marat/Sade"

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Ariddia
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Postby Ariddia » Sun May 06, 2012 2:10 pm

At last! Out with Sarkozy. With five more years, the damage he would have done would have been truly frightening.

Now we have a President who understands that austerity without growth leads only to misery and economic decline. Now we have a President who will exercise his function with the dignity that was sorely lacking during the past five years. Now we have a President who will unite the nation rather than constantly divide people, stirring up petty jealousies and hatred.

That said, as a very moderate centre-left President, he is not setting out to address all France's problems with sufficient reformist ambition. Hopefully the legislative elections next month will produce a Parliament more firmly on the left.

Hippostania wrote:..seriously though, I'm pissed. France had a chance to select a sensible, intelligent and responsible president.. But instead they opted for ''HURRRR FREE STUFFZ FOR ERRYONE-commie'' who's going to wreck the economy.


How about you actually go and read Hollande's economic proposals, before making yourself look any more foolish?

Hippostania wrote:But I still doubt that Hollande is as brave as Sarkozy, he would've most likely pussied out during the Libyan liberation and wouldn't have sent French aircraft to help the NTC.


You do realise that Hollande supported the intervention in Libya, and continues to say that it was a good thing?

Ah, you probably don't even care that you're talking complete nonsense.

Risottia wrote:I expecially hope that the 2014 Europarliament elections will follow France's trend and send home the centre-right majority that rules the EU since 2004.


Hurrah to that. Let the peoples of Europe unite to lead the continent into a more sensible, more human direction. :)
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Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia
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Postby Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia » Sun May 06, 2012 2:11 pm

Laissez-Faire wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:
No, stagnation is a result of the moral and actual financial failure of state regulated capitalism.

Fixed.

There's a difference between the two.


No there is not. Unregulated capitalism would be the downfall of ethics.

Once this happens, all the most disgusting forms of businesses would come into existence. Egoistic, egocentric, corrupted corporate executives would be free to unleash chaos across the world. Companies would freely build their private armed forces for "competitive" purposes then would fight each in corporate wars, wars which would bring devastation across the anarcho-capitalist globe. You could not possibly be asking for the wealthy to be given unlimited opportunities in carrying out potentially destructive personal agendas. They NEED regulation. Unless you happen to be head of a massive corporation I do not see how you would benefit from this, as a sensible ordinary middle class or lower class person. Not to mention how capitalism time then again proved to depend on the suffering of others in order to thrive. You should also, on another note, read Upton Sinclair's Jungle.
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Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia
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Postby Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia » Sun May 06, 2012 2:16 pm

Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:Ah yes, unregulated capitalism, where anyone has the right to go out and fleece any other man of his labour power for his personal gain, unregulated capitalism, where money is the absolute focus of a person's life, unregulated capitalism, where the rich can ride roughshod over the wishes of those they exploit, unregulated capitalism, generating instability and market dependency, and unregulated capitalism, which generates a wealthy elite oppressing everyone else. Gotta love that unregulated capitalism.

But I digress, this isn't a debate about the pure evil of capitalism.


Ah, how heavenly & masturbatable must unregulated capitalism be!

Seriously however, I think anarcho-capitalists are wealthy corporate owners on NationStates plotting a conspiracy to bring forth their chaotic ulterior motives...

(Therefore, unregulated capitalism, is, simply put, pure evil)...
Last edited by Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia on Sun May 06, 2012 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Power comes only from the barrel of a gun - Mao Zedong
Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. - Napoleon Bonaparte
DEFCON:
[0] Nuclear Armaggedon Inevitable, as well as Defend Reichland from Invasion!
Azrael wrote:Except that their entire appearance is a ruse!
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:You, I must admit, are a smart Commie. :clap:
Damanucus wrote:... better ones again.

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Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia
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Postby Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia » Sun May 06, 2012 2:17 pm

Ariddia wrote:At last! Out with Sarkozy. With five more years, the damage he would have done would have been truly frightening.

Now we have a President who understands that austerity without growth leads only to misery and economic decline. Now we have a President who will exercise his function with the dignity that was sorely lacking during the past five years. Now we have a President who will unite the nation rather than constantly divide people, stirring up petty jealousies and hatred.

That said, as a very moderate centre-left President, he is not setting out to address all France's problems with sufficient reformist ambition. Hopefully the legislative elections next month will produce a Parliament more firmly on the left.

Hippostania wrote:..seriously though, I'm pissed. France had a chance to select a sensible, intelligent and responsible president.. But instead they opted for ''HURRRR FREE STUFFZ FOR ERRYONE-commie'' who's going to wreck the economy.


How about you actually go and read Hollande's economic proposals, before making yourself look any more foolish?

Hippostania wrote:But I still doubt that Hollande is as brave as Sarkozy, he would've most likely pussied out during the Libyan liberation and wouldn't have sent French aircraft to help the NTC.


You do realise that Hollande supported the intervention in Libya, and continues to say that it was a good thing?

Ah, you probably don't even care that you're talking complete nonsense.

Risottia wrote:I expecially hope that the 2014 Europarliament elections will follow France's trend and send home the centre-right majority that rules the EU since 2004.


Hurrah to that. Let the peoples of Europe unite to lead the continent into a more sensible, more human direction. :)


I agree entirely with you Ariddia. :)
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Power comes only from the barrel of a gun - Mao Zedong
Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. - Napoleon Bonaparte
DEFCON:
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Azrael wrote:Except that their entire appearance is a ruse!
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:You, I must admit, are a smart Commie. :clap:
Damanucus wrote:... better ones again.

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Laissez-Faire
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Postby Laissez-Faire » Sun May 06, 2012 2:23 pm

Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia wrote:
Of the Free Socialist Territories wrote:Ah yes, unregulated capitalism, where anyone has the right to go out and fleece any other man of his labour power for his personal gain, unregulated capitalism, where money is the absolute focus of a person's life, unregulated capitalism, where the rich can ride roughshod over the wishes of those they exploit, unregulated capitalism, generating instability and market dependency, and unregulated capitalism, which generates a wealthy elite oppressing everyone else. Gotta love that unregulated capitalism.

But I digress, this isn't a debate about the pure evil of capitalism.


Ah, how heavenly & masturbatable must unregulated capitalism be!

Seriously however, I think anarcho-capitalists are wealthy corporate owners on NationStates plotting a conspiracy to bring forth their chaotic ulterior motives...

:blink:

La citation du jour, c'est toi.
Sanguinthium wrote:and then the government abolishes itself after its purpose has been served
Vestr-Norig wrote:I'm sorry, I am not familiar with your highbrow words.
Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia wrote:Ah, how heavenly & masturbatable must unregulated capitalism be!
Parpolitic Citizens wrote:You're one of the most disingenuous people I've seen here.
Parpolitic Citizens wrote:Do you see any value in human dignity or happiness? I'm not trolling. I'm seriously wondering if you're a sociopath.

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Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia
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Postby Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia » Sun May 06, 2012 2:38 pm

Laissez-Faire wrote:
Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia wrote:
Ah, how heavenly & masturbatable must unregulated capitalism be!

Seriously however, I think anarcho-capitalists are wealthy corporate owners on NationStates plotting a conspiracy to bring forth their chaotic ulterior motives...

:blink:

La citation du jour, c'est toi.


Why thank you! :p

Now I must return to my business of bashing the wealthy corrupt, whilst conspiringly supporting the left.../of temporary off-topic discussion.docx
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Power comes only from the barrel of a gun - Mao Zedong
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Azrael wrote:Except that their entire appearance is a ruse!
Prussia-Steinbach wrote:You, I must admit, are a smart Commie. :clap:
Damanucus wrote:... better ones again.

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Kilobugya
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Postby Kilobugya » Sun May 06, 2012 3:15 pm

Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia wrote:I agree entirely with you Ariddia. :)


Me too :) I'll go to bed happily now :)

And 68.97% for Hollande in my suburb city, for once I'm proud of it (ok, it's quite silly, but still) :)

Once again, congrats Hollande. But don't give up or surrender to Merkel, IMF, ECB, ... if you fail, 2017 will be nightmarish. You've 5 years. Use them well.
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Wamitoria
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Postby Wamitoria » Sun May 06, 2012 4:10 pm

Pesda wrote:I'm happy that Hollande won.

Same.
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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sun May 06, 2012 4:17 pm

Wamitoria wrote:
Pesda wrote:I'm happy that Hollande won.

Same.

agreed.
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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Sun May 06, 2012 4:57 pm

Greater Evil Imperial Japanese Dystopia wrote:French socialism will succeed, since as a wealthy developed nation they already passed the principal economic requirement outlined in the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx himself, which is that bourgeoisie's capital must be available in enough amounts to propel Communism or Socialism forward with total undisputed success. Yes, however it will be interesting to watch how this shall develop. I am hopeful & optimistic of it. I hope the world follows.


Yeah, good luck with France maintaining that wealth once it is all spent. Where is the money supposed to come from? If the rich and businesses are overly taxed or penalized, they will simply move with their feet and take their investments elsewhere so they are able to make a profit. Any wealth that was available previously would evaporate under communism as capital flight occurs and labor productivity plummets with the concept of capital abolished.

I don't know much about Hollande, but I hope that he and his party don't pursue anti business policies that will hurt France's economy. It concerns me that he is a socialist.
Last edited by Saiwania on Sun May 06, 2012 5:14 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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The United Soviet Socialist Republic
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Postby The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Sun May 06, 2012 6:14 pm

Thank God Hollande is going to win, he will fix up what Sarkozy screwed up. Socialism FTW!
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Postby Shofercia » Sun May 06, 2012 8:20 pm

Awwww. Sarkozy lost. Bawwwww.

We'll see what Hollande does. Hopefully he will have the brainpower to actually help out France, and not just be better than Sarko, which isn't hard.
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The United Soviet Socialist Republic
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Postby The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Sun May 06, 2012 8:21 pm

Shofercia wrote:Awwww. Sarkozy lost. Bawwwww.

We'll see what Hollande does. Hopefully he will have the brainpower to actually help out France, and not just be better than Sarko, which isn't hard.

Yay yay yay!
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Dick Alfagor
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Postby Dick Alfagor » Sun May 06, 2012 8:25 pm

Hopefully Hollande can help the EU out of this rut, and I lean to the left too.

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The United Soviet Socialist Republic
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Postby The United Soviet Socialist Republic » Sun May 06, 2012 8:27 pm

Dick Alfagor wrote:Hopefully Hollande can help the EU out of this rut, and I lean to the left too.

I am heavily socialist on economic policies, im just right wing on social and economic issues. I have no doubt Hollande will be a great president, for economic policies atleast.
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Svobodu
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Postby Svobodu » Sun May 06, 2012 8:36 pm

Hollande gets elected, Euro value drops on markets. HAHAHAHAHA!

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-0 ... ction-jobs

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Allrule
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Postby Allrule » Sun May 06, 2012 8:39 pm

Svobodu wrote:Hollande gets elected, Euro value drops on markets. HAHAHAHAHA!

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-0 ... ction-jobs

Correlation =/= causation.
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"Always."
-Albus Dumbledore and Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows: Part 2

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