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Irreducible Complexity takes another hit ...

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Straughn
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Irreducible Complexity takes another hit ...

Postby Straughn » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:04 am

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 111102.htm
A non-Darwinian explanation, from believers of Intelligent Design, proposed these complex machines to be "irreducibly complex". In other words they are so neatly complex and complete that they couldn't have evolved but rather must have been designed by an intelligent entity.

"Our research shows that these machines although complete and complex, were a result of evolution. Simple 'core' machines were established in the first eukaryotes by drawing on pre-existing proteins that had previously provided distinct, simplistic functions," Professor Lithgow said.

As a model system, the research focused on one specific molecular machine, the TIM complex, which transports proteins into mitochondria. Mitochondria are a compartment of human cells that serve as the energy-producing 'powerhouses'. At a very early stage in evolution, mitochondria were derived from bacteria that lived within the first eukaryotic cells.

"Our cells literally are chimeras of a "host" cell and these intracellular bacteria. Yet bacteria don't have TIM complexes – to understand where the TIM complex came from we simply applied scientific reasoning and looked at a modern-day bacterium akin to the organism that gave rise to mitochondria." Professor Lithgow said.

The group looked at the bacterium Caulobacter crescentus and found bacterial proteins related to the components of the mitochondrial TIM complex. They then showed that these bacterial proteins are not found as part of protein transport machines.


So what says y'all? Is it all about generalizations, or perhaps mechanical understanding does hold meaningful promise?

(Oddly, FX was showing Deja Vu tonight, and i'm reminded of a certain scene in the situation room involving a monitor and a chair ...)

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Barringtonia
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Postby Barringtonia » Thu Sep 17, 2009 1:09 am

To paraphrase, it's hard to make a man believe something when his very authority depends on him not believing it,
I hear babies cry, I watch them grow
They'll learn much more than I'll ever know
And I think to myself, what a wonderful world



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Straughn
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Postby Straughn » Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:32 am

Barringtonia wrote:To paraphrase, it's hard to make a man believe something when his very authority depends on him not believing it,

Paraphrased out the "paycheck" part, iirc ... as applies so well to global climate issues (note: Desperate Measures)
True, of course.

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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:41 am

Doesn't matter - it will still be used as an example of irreducible complexity in presentations from IDers for years to come, and will keep appearing in the textbooks used in school in e.g. Kansas.

For reasons I cannot begin to fathom the most vocal creationists after all tend to not like to be truthful, despite them arguing that lying is serving Satan.
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Sun Sep 20, 2009 12:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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LOL ANARCHY NUBZ
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Postby LOL ANARCHY NUBZ » Sun Sep 20, 2009 1:04 am

I dunno, look at all these evangelical extremist types getting caught with rent boys and the likes :)

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Postby SaintB » Sun Sep 20, 2009 3:13 am

They are serious??
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Postby Rejistania » Sun Sep 20, 2009 4:04 am

The Alma Mater wrote:Doesn't matter - it will still be used as an example of irreducible complexity in presentations from IDers for years to come, and will keep appearing in the textbooks used in school in e.g. Kansas.

For reasons I cannot begin to fathom the most vocal creationists after all tend to not like to be truthful, despite them arguing that lying is serving Satan.

Unfortunately, I think that you are right. :(
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:08 pm

I'm a "creationist" in a sort of deist sort of way, so I've never really believed in irreducible complexity... I honestly don't know if there are any true creationists (i.e. 5000 years old planet or whatever they believe) on this board.
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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:11 pm

I guess this further supports my point that irreducible complexity is falsifiable, and HAS been falsified (not just here).

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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:13 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:I'm a "creationist" in a sort of deist sort of way, so I've never really believed in irreducible complexity... I honestly don't know if there are any true creationists (i.e. 5000 years old planet or whatever they believe) on this board.


There aren't many on this board, but there are shitpiles of them over here in 'Merka.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:15 pm

Hydesland wrote:I guess this further supports my point that irreducible complexity is falsifiable, and HAS been falsified (not just here).


You can't falsify the entire thing in general, but you can falsify specifics (i.e. "feature X is irreducibly complex").
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:16 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:You can't falsify the entire thing in general, but you can falsify specifics (i.e. "feature X is irreducibly complex").


You can't falsify creationism. But you can falsify irreducible complexity, by showing that nothing they have presented is irreducibly complex.

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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:20 pm

Hydesland wrote:You can't falsify creationism. But you can falsify irreducible complexity, by showing that nothing they have presented is irreducibly complex.


That doesn't falsify all of irreducible complexity. It only falsifies the examples they've given. Of course, the fact that every example thus given has been falsified and the fact that the alternative of evolution has mountains of evidence and has never been falsified doesn't speak well for irreducible complexity.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Hydesland
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Postby Hydesland » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:21 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:That doesn't falsify all of irreducible complexity. It only falsifies the examples they've given. Of course, the fact that every example thus given has been falsified and the fact that the alternative of evolution has mountains of evidence and has never been falsified doesn't speak well for irreducible complexity.


But in the same way you can't prove all of evolution, only the examples of evolution given.

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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:38 pm

Hydesland wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:That doesn't falsify all of irreducible complexity. It only falsifies the examples they've given. Of course, the fact that every example thus given has been falsified and the fact that the alternative of evolution has mountains of evidence and has never been falsified doesn't speak well for irreducible complexity.


But in the same way you can't prove all of evolution, only the examples of evolution given.


So you admit evolution isn't real (j/k)

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Postby New Kereptica » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:52 pm

Hydesland wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:That doesn't falsify all of irreducible complexity. It only falsifies the examples they've given. Of course, the fact that every example thus given has been falsified and the fact that the alternative of evolution has mountains of evidence and has never been falsified doesn't speak well for irreducible complexity.


But in the same way you can't prove all of evolution, only the examples of evolution given.


Correct.
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Takaram
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Postby Takaram » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:54 pm

So, yet more evidence that ID is BS. Surprise, surprise.

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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:56 pm

Takaram wrote:So, yet more evidence that ID is BS. Surprise, surprise.


On a related note, has anyone noticed that it seems a lot of the creationists/ID advocates/cdesign propentisists on YouTube are geocentrists as well?
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Takaram
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Postby Takaram » Sun Sep 20, 2009 5:57 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Takaram wrote:So, yet more evidence that ID is BS. Surprise, surprise.


On a related note, has anyone noticed that it seems a lot of the creationists/ID advocates/cdesign propentisists on YouTube are geocentrists as well?


I try not to watch them, but this doesn't surprise me either.

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New Kereptica
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Postby New Kereptica » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:03 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
Takaram wrote:So, yet more evidence that ID is BS. Surprise, surprise.


On a related note, has anyone noticed that it seems a lot of the creationists/ID advocates/cdesign propentisists on YouTube are geocentrists as well?


There are still geocentrists out there?

*holds pistol to head*
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KiloMikeAlpha wrote:Umm hmm.... mind if I siggy that as a reminder to those who think that it is cool to shove their bat-shit crazy atheist beliefs on those of us who actually have a clue?

Teccor wrote:You're actually arguing with Kereptica? It's like arguing with a far-Left, militantly atheist brick wall.

Bluth Corporation wrote:No. A free market literally has zero bubbles.

JJ Place wrote:I have a few more pressing matters to attend to right now; I'll be back later this evening to continue my one-man against the world struggle.

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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:10 pm

New Kereptica wrote:There are still geocentrists out there?

*holds pistol to head*


Two of the more well known creationists, VenomFangX and NephlimFree, are geocentrists. They have more subscribers than most other creationists on YouTube.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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New Kereptica
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Postby New Kereptica » Sun Sep 20, 2009 6:14 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
New Kereptica wrote:There are still geocentrists out there?

*holds pistol to head*


Two of the more well known creationists, VenomFangX and NephlimFree, are geocentrists. They have more subscribers than most other creationists on YouTube.


*pulls trigger*
Blouman Empire wrote:Natural is not nature.

KiloMikeAlpha wrote:Umm hmm.... mind if I siggy that as a reminder to those who think that it is cool to shove their bat-shit crazy atheist beliefs on those of us who actually have a clue?

Teccor wrote:You're actually arguing with Kereptica? It's like arguing with a far-Left, militantly atheist brick wall.

Bluth Corporation wrote:No. A free market literally has zero bubbles.

JJ Place wrote:I have a few more pressing matters to attend to right now; I'll be back later this evening to continue my one-man against the world struggle.

Mercator Terra wrote: Mental illness is a myth.

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Postby Xsyne » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:03 pm

Hydesland wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:You can't falsify the entire thing in general, but you can falsify specifics (i.e. "feature X is irreducibly complex").


You can't falsify creationism. But you can falsify irreducible complexity, by showing that nothing they have presented is irreducibly complex.

But there are irreducibly complex structures. They just so happen to not exist in every single organism ever. Funny how that works.
Last edited by Xsyne on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Kereptica
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Postby New Kereptica » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:05 pm

Xsyne wrote:
Hydesland wrote:
UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:You can't falsify the entire thing in general, but you can falsify specifics (i.e. "feature X is irreducibly complex").


You can't falsify creationism. But you can falsify irreducible complexity, by showing that nothing they have presented is irreducibly complex.

But there are irreducibly complex structures. They just so happen to not exist in every single organism ever. Funny how that works.

An example, please? And some rationale on why these structures are irreducibly complex?
Last edited by New Kereptica on Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blouman Empire wrote:Natural is not nature.

KiloMikeAlpha wrote:Umm hmm.... mind if I siggy that as a reminder to those who think that it is cool to shove their bat-shit crazy atheist beliefs on those of us who actually have a clue?

Teccor wrote:You're actually arguing with Kereptica? It's like arguing with a far-Left, militantly atheist brick wall.

Bluth Corporation wrote:No. A free market literally has zero bubbles.

JJ Place wrote:I have a few more pressing matters to attend to right now; I'll be back later this evening to continue my one-man against the world struggle.

Mercator Terra wrote: Mental illness is a myth.

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Sun Sep 20, 2009 7:05 pm

Xsyne wrote:But there are irreducibly complex structures. They just so happen to not exist in every single organism ever. Funny how that works.


Are you using things that we have constructed like computers as examples of irreducible complexity then?
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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