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On what grounds do atheist call things wrong?

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Hallistar
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Postby Hallistar » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:17 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Coccygia wrote:There are other bases for morality than belief in an invisible old man in the sky who is highly concerned with everything you do.


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Sociobiology
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Postby Sociobiology » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:23 pm

Forbidden In Heaven and Useless In Hell wrote:I've noticed a lot that atheist like to say that the actions of God in the Old Testament were wrong, or that this part of this religion is wrong, or that what this religious group did was wrong. There are a lot of things you could consider wrong in a lot of religions, but I'm wondering how an atheist calls anything wrong or right.

I don't want to start a debate about the existence of god, just this topic. I'm not taking any sides in regards to the existence of God, because I'm kind of in a stage where I don't know enough to make a decision, but I think that there's not any reason for an atheist to call anything wrong. I believe that objective morality can only come from God, and I don't know any atheist who disagree with that. If you believe in completely subjective morality, then how can you call something wrong, when morality is based on whatever the individual thinks?

I'm expecting everyone here to go on a huge diatribe against me, as the history of NSG shows.


Well I can demonstrate that you do not follow what you describe as objective morality, but follow subjective morality just like everyone else.
but if you really want to know about morality, try this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7xt5LtgsxQ&feature=relmfu
It discusses how morality is based on information, logic, and assessing harm.
Last edited by Sociobiology on Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shnercropolis
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Postby Shnercropolis » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:25 pm

To an atheist, anything they don't want someone else to do to them is wrong. Thats a gross generalization of course, but it's all i can think of.
it is my firm belief that I should never have to justify my beliefs.
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Person012345
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Postby Person012345 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:58 pm

Shnercropolis wrote:To an atheist, anything they don't want someone else to do to them is wrong. Thats a gross generalization of course, but it's all i can think of.

Completely incorrect, even as a generalisation.
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Shnercropolis
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Postby Shnercropolis » Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:59 pm

Person012345 wrote:
Shnercropolis wrote:To an atheist, anything they don't want someone else to do to them is wrong. Thats a gross generalization of course, but it's all i can think of.

Completely incorrect, even as a generalisation.

Enlighten me.
it is my firm belief that I should never have to justify my beliefs.
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Person012345
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Postby Person012345 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:08 pm

Shnercropolis wrote:
Person012345 wrote:Completely incorrect, even as a generalisation.

Enlighten me.

First of all, most people's ethics extend beyond themselves. I find genocide in dafur or wherever to be morally disgusting. So it's not "to oneself".

I'm on a bus atm and will have to transfer soon, so I'll expand on this when I get home, but one can accept things that they don't "want" someone to do as not being wrong. I sure as hell didn't want them to kick nacchan out, but I don't think it was morally wrong. You likely won't get what I'm referring to, but trust me on that.
Last edited by Person012345 on Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shnercropolis
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Postby Shnercropolis » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:09 pm

Person012345 wrote:
Shnercropolis wrote:Enlighten me.

First of all, most people's ethics extend beyond themselves. I find genocide in dafur or wherever to be morally disgusting. So it's not "to oneself".

I'm on a bus atm and will have to transfer soon, so I'll expand on this when I get home, but one can accept things that they don't "want" someone to do as not being wrong. I sure as hell didn't want them to kick nacchan out, but I don't think it was morally wrong. You likely won't get what I'm referring to, but trust me on that.

Ok, I will. This might be the first non-argument thread in weeks.
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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:54 pm

Shnercropolis wrote:
Person012345 wrote:Completely incorrect, even as a generalisation.

Enlighten me.



I don't have any interest in the kind of sex that involves whips and chains.

But I think it's just peachy for people who like that kind of thing.

So the simple claim that " anything they don't want someone else to do to them is wrong".... is wrong.
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Person012345
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Postby Person012345 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:11 pm

Shnercropolis wrote:
Person012345 wrote:First of all, most people's ethics extend beyond themselves. I find genocide in dafur or wherever to be morally disgusting. So it's not "to oneself".

I'm on a bus atm and will have to transfer soon, so I'll expand on this when I get home, but one can accept things that they don't "want" someone to do as not being wrong. I sure as hell didn't want them to kick nacchan out, but I don't think it was morally wrong. You likely won't get what I'm referring to, but trust me on that.

Ok, I will. This might be the first non-argument thread in weeks.

Basically, you got it backwards. Most atheists don't want people doing things that they think are wrong. That is true because, obviously, those things are (in their opinion) wrong. That isn't to say they necessarily want to prohibit those things either. That would completely depend on the atheist and the subject. However, the reverse - that everything they don't want people to do is wrong - is not necessarily true. It's the same thing as all cats are animals, but not all animals are cats.

For example, someone who thinks murder is wrong will want people not to commit murder. On the other hand, they may not want a person they know to have an abortion, simply because they may think that the person would be happier with a child, or some other non-morality related reason, but they may also not think it would be morally wrong for them to do so.
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Furious Grandmothers
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Postby Furious Grandmothers » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:07 pm

Shnercropolis wrote:To an atheist, anything they don't want someone else to do to them is wrong. Thats a gross generalization of course, but it's all i can think of.

I agree that your generalization is really really gross. Yuck. Erm, try to get to know some atheists?
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The Cummunist State
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Postby The Cummunist State » Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:10 pm

Atheists have no grounds to call anything wrong because they do not all believe the same thing. There are many many MAAANNYYY different "grounds" for them. However, I think we can all agree murdering a couple thousand people is pretty bad.
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Postby Vousielle » Sat Mar 10, 2012 11:49 pm

Wikkiwallana wrote:
Genivaria wrote:It's either Athena, or Artemis who kills you if you see her naked.

I could have sworn she just turned you into a deer.

Well, yeah. But the incident in question had the fellow being torn apart by his hunting dogs.
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:49 am

Vousielle wrote:
Wikkiwallana wrote:I could have sworn she just turned you into a deer.

Well, yeah. But the incident in question had the fellow being torn apart by his hunting dogs.

Oh that's right, I had forgotten that part.
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Postby Jormengand » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:11 am

The Cummunist State wrote:Atheists have no grounds to call anything wrong because they do not all believe the same thing. There are many many MAAANNYYY different "grounds" for them. However, I think we can all agree murdering a couple thousand people is pretty bad.

Well, in the same way theists can't agree. Christians think one set of things, Muslims another, and even in the same religeon people can't always agree. No-one really has grounds to call something irrefutably wrong, because all it really means is that they don't like the idea of it.
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Postby Salandriagado » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:26 pm

Person012345 wrote:
Shnercropolis wrote:To an atheist, anything they don't want someone else to do to them is wrong. Thats a gross generalization of course, but it's all i can think of.

Completely incorrect, even as a generalisation.


Well, it's correct in the sense that a lot of people hold that it would be wrong for them to do to others something that they wouldn't want others to do to them. I think it was just a somewhat garbled explanation of the Silver Rule.
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:32 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Genivaria wrote:It's either Athena, or Artemis who kills you if you see her naked.

The thing is, you can't just jump out and yell, "Surprise!" when Artemis is taking a bath with her girls.

That is just begging to get shot in the face and roasted on a spit. Which I'm given to understand some people are totally into.
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Postby Person012345 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:48 pm

Salandriagado wrote:
Person012345 wrote:Completely incorrect, even as a generalisation.


Well, it's correct in the sense that a lot of people hold that it would be wrong for them to do to others something that they wouldn't want others to do to them. I think it was just a somewhat garbled explanation of the Silver Rule.

Person012345 wrote:Basically, you got it backwards. Most atheists don't want people doing things that they think are wrong. That is true because, obviously, those things are (in their opinion) wrong. That isn't to say they necessarily want to prohibit those things either. That would completely depend on the atheist and the subject. However, the reverse - that everything they don't want people to do is wrong - is not necessarily true. It's the same thing as all cats are animals, but not all animals are cats.

For example, someone who thinks murder is wrong will want people not to commit murder. On the other hand, they may not want a person they know to have an abortion, simply because they may think that the person would be happier with a child, or some other non-morality related reason, but they may also not think it would be morally wrong for them to do so.
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:50 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:The thing is, you can't just jump out and yell, "Surprise!" when Artemis is taking a bath with her girls.

That is just begging to get shot in the face and roasted on a spit. Which I'm given to understand some people are totally into.

Ewww.
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Postby Zirconim » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:57 pm

Morality is based on the universe and life, not a figment of imagination.
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Person012345
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Postby Person012345 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:00 pm

Zirconim wrote:Morality is based on the universe and life, not a figment of imagination.

The universe and life eh? You have some justification for that? Morality itself is a figment of the imagination - it doesn't physically exist in any form, it's just a made up code. True there are biological reasons that most people think, say, murder is wrong, but then "because it's natural" is itself not a justification for anything. So the mere existance of biological reasoning behind a moral code does not make it right or moral.
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Postby Ovisterra » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:01 pm

Person012345 wrote:
Zirconim wrote:Morality is based on the universe and life, not a figment of imagination.

The universe and life eh? You have some justification for that? Morality itself is a figment of the imagination - it doesn't physically exist in any form, it's just a made up code. True there are biological reasons that most people think, say, murder is wrong, but then "because it's natural" is itself not a justification for anything. So the mere existance of biological reasoning behind a moral code does not make it right or moral.



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Postby Buffett and Colbert » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:02 pm

Forbidden In Heaven and Useless In Hell wrote:I believe that objective morality can only come from God, and I don't know any atheist who disagree with that.

Then you'll be in for a surprise.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:07 pm

Buffett and Colbert wrote:
Forbidden In Heaven and Useless In Hell wrote:I believe that objective morality can only come from God, and I don't know any atheist who disagree with that.

Then you'll be in for a surprise.

I tend to not agree with the idea that objective morality exists in the first place, much less where it comes from.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:14 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Then you'll be in for a surprise.

I tend to not agree with the idea that objective morality exists in the first place, much less where it comes from.

Nor do I, but if it was to come from anywhere it'd be a fundamental property of the universe like gravity or the speed of light.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Mar 11, 2012 1:15 pm

Ifreann wrote:
Genivaria wrote:I tend to not agree with the idea that objective morality exists in the first place, much less where it comes from.

Nor do I, but if it was to come from anywhere it'd be a fundamental property of the universe like gravity or the speed of light.

Not the human mind? I always thought that empathy is the source of morality. At least as far as humans go.
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