KONY 2012

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Scooping a turd out of a sewer isn't going to stop it being a sewer. More turds will always come along.

People love the sensationalism of gallivanting around, spreading messages and peace and whatnot. But these countries aren't going to change until the environment that facilitates the rise of these people is changed.

But that's boring, so no one cares.

[Aelosia]

1) First, Seal Team Six has to find the guy, which is rather difficult. AWACS is primarily a radar platform, not of much use against small forces of ground troops. Maybe some electronic warfare capabilities, but I doubt Kony stays in constant radio communication with his local forces. Again, this is an African militia, not a Warsaw Pact armored division. This is not the kind of battle American troops are trained or equipped to fight, except for a very small number of special forces.
2) Because ten minutes after they get paid, your African mercenaries are going to set up their own little country on some God-forsaken edge of the DRC and be just as bad as Kony. Maybe worse, if they get their hands on any significant mineral wealth.

1) I am aware of that, maybe I used the wrong military mumbo-jumbo. Not a gung-ho expert, although I hold a bit of my own. Satellital surveillance? It is virtually impossible to find AN ARMY on Africa? Last time I checked it was easier to find rebel camps in Colombia in the midst of a tropical jungle. I am not sure in which zone of Uganda the NLA is camped, but I am pretty sure the technology to find their forces exist.

2) Not on this day, I don't think so. Twenty or so men? Too few of them. Mostly because it has been TRIED in the past and so far have FAILED. Funding the Ugandan goverment armed forces, however, does not bring any sympathy from me. I bought the kit because I just want to see how far an online initiative can go. I guess you can contact a Private Military Firm and pay them money to find and take care of the militias. Blackwater or something like that. Seems better? Maybe a pack of EX-SF?

[Calenhardon]

1) First, Seal Team Six has to find the guy, which is rather difficult. AWACS is primarily a radar platform, not of much use against small forces of ground troops. Maybe some electronic warfare capabilities, but I doubt Kony stays in constant radio communication with his local forces. Again, this is an African militia, not a Warsaw Pact armored division. This is not the kind of battle American troops are trained or equipped to fight, except for a very small number of special forces.
2) Because ten minutes after they get paid, your African mercenaries are going to set up their own little country on some God-forsaken edge of the DRC and be just as bad as Kony. Maybe worse, if they get their hands on any significant mineral wealth.

1) I am aware of that, maybe I used the wrong military mumbo-jumbo. Not a gung-ho expert, although I hold a bit of my own. Satellital surveillance? It is virtually impossible to find AN ARMY on Africa? Last time I checked it was easier to find rebel camps in Colombia in the midst of a tropical jungle. I am not sure in which zone of Uganda the NLA is camped, but I am pretty sure the technology to find their forces exist.

2) Not on this day, I don't think so. Twenty or so men? Too few of them. Mostly because it has been TRIED in the past and so far have FAILED. Funding the Ugandan goverment armed forces, however, does not bring any sympathy from me. I bought the kit because I just want to see how far an online initiative can go. I guess you can contact a Private Military Firm and pay them money to find and take care of the militias. Blackwater or something like that. Seems better? Maybe a pack of EX-SF?

1) The LRA was mostly expelled from Uganda after Operation Lighting Thunder, a US-backed offensive by the Ugandan army. Kony and company moved into the Central African Republic and South Sudan. Satellite intelligence could probably locate some LRA camps, but actually finding Kony himself would probably be ungodly difficult. Though someone with access to classified info would know better than me.
2) Those twenty guys would then have the money to pay lots more to fight for them. A PMSC could probably get the job done to, but would be ridiculously expensive and less accountable than normal US forces. If the US is going to get involved, I'd rather just do it ourselves than contract it out.

[Costa Fiero]

So many naive people on here. Do you really think that supporting a government that has actively promoted the prohibition of homosexuality is really the best solution to this problem?

[Jenlom]

The video is good, but it's a bit Ameri-centric. The politcians they mention - I could probably name about 3 of the ones I saw on the screen, and even then only because one "did not have sexual relations with that woman" and the others because they either are American President or are about to become it - are not my politicians or politicians who have any remit or contactability outside of America.

Why not contact David Cameron or Nicholas Sarkozy (they have a good track-record building up removing totalitarians and general bastards from African countries)?

[Aelosia]

The video is good, but it's a bit Ameri-centric. The politcians they mention - I could probably name about 3 of the ones I saw on the screen, and even then only because one "did not have sexual relations with that woman" and the others because they either are American President or are about to become it - are not my politicians or politicians who have any remit or contactability outside of America.

Why not contact David Cameron or Nicholas Sarkozy (they have a good track-record building up removing totalitarians and general bastards from African countries)?

I payed yes, but you have a great deal of truth here. It IS too americocentric.

[Lotrabme]

Heres an Idea, lets conquer africa

1: American imperialism is neccesary, we cant simply send 100 advisors over if the Ugandan military after Kony's gone is just gonna keep raping and looting, we need to kill them too.

2: American Youth getting involved in stoping this man and his atrocities is one thing, however, we also need to asses the fact that many will use this as an excuse to cause trouble and rise up.

I think the best course of action is to give the Youth supporting the removal of Kony guns, send them to Africa, and make them conquer Uganda and some other Nations in the name of America.

And after that we take down the American government as well, this too is necessary.

[Johz]

The video is good, but it's a bit Ameri-centric. The politcians they mention - I could probably name about 3 of the ones I saw on the screen, and even then only because one "did not have sexual relations with that woman" and the others because they either are American President or are about to become it - are not my politicians or politicians who have any remit or contactability outside of America.

Why not contact David Cameron or Nicholas Sarkozy (they have a good track-record building up removing totalitarians and general bastards from African countries)?

Well they have a track record. Good is perhaps too subjective.

[Yuktova]

I think this would be the only modern war I would support. Kony needs to be stopped, either by a bullet to the head, or arresting him.

Thats the Spirit! I used to be in the Invisible Children's club back in high school.

I can't tell if your being sarcastic with "That's the spirit". I'd rather him be arrested, but if we can't arrest him, and our only way to save the kids is to kill him, then we'll have to do it.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

an alternative view -

http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/

I do not doubt for a second that those involved in KONY 2012 have great intentions, nor do I doubt for a second that Joseph Kony is a very evil man. But despite this, I’m strongly opposed to the KONY 2012 campaign.

KONY 2012 is the product of a group called Invisible Children, a controversial activist group and not-for-profit. They’ve released 11 films, most with an accompanying bracelet colour (KONY 2012 is fittingly red), all of which focus on Joseph Kony. When we buy merch from them, when we link to their video, when we put up posters linking to their website, we support the organization. I don’t think that’s a good thing, and I’m not alone.

[Calenhardon]

an alternative view -

http://visiblechildren.tumblr.com/

I do not doubt for a second that those involved in KONY 2012 have great intentions, nor do I doubt for a second that Joseph Kony is a very evil man. But despite this, I’m strongly opposed to the KONY 2012 campaign.

KONY 2012 is the product of a group called Invisible Children, a controversial activist group and not-for-profit. They’ve released 11 films, most with an accompanying bracelet colour (KONY 2012 is fittingly red), all of which focus on Joseph Kony. When we buy merch from them, when we link to their video, when we put up posters linking to their website, we support the organization. I don’t think that’s a good thing, and I’m not alone.

The stats on their finances are a major problem. Really, 68% goes to staff expenses and film making? Do they really think making film #12 is going to magically solve the problem that films 1-11 didn't?

[Anemos Major]

It's an interesting topic, not the least because of its subject matter, but because of those behind it (as many have pointed out). The conclusions I drew from it were as follows.

a) The focus should be on Kony, not on the organisation behind the initiative. Giving it that sort of credit will only feed something that's objectionable in its own right.
b) The simplification within the video is also deeply harmful, and equates to propaganda in its own right. The LRA's motives aren't 'to sustain power' - they have a religious basis to their movement, and countless other qualities, that need to be understood beyond what the video says.
c) Let's remember that idealism moves things, but practicality keeps them running; there are a hundred US advisors in-country already, finding such a prominent leader without escalating the conflict unacceptably is difficult, and we have to approach the matter with realistic expectations and an understanding of the issues at hand.
d) That said, this is a deeply objectionable man, by Ugandan social and political standards let alone our own, Western ones. And if anything we can do will help bring him in, I think that's worth doing, especially when it requires so little from us. Just remember to take the video itself and those who made it with a pinch of salt ,and make sure others do as well.

Just my take on the issue.

[Jonodonia]

My nation has full support for Mr. Kony. We shall offer him asylum, if the situation arises in which he needs it.
Yours sincerely,
The Colonel.

[Anemos Major]

My nation has full support for Mr. Kony. We shall offer him asylum, if the situation arises in which he needs it.
Yours sincerely,
The Colonel.

Hi, welcome to NS, this is an Out-Of-Character forum, refer to the International Incidents helpdesk and related stickies if you're interested in RPing.

Thank you.

[Transeden]

The people from Invisible Children came to my church last Sunday and showed us this video. I found it very emotional, but I don't know what I'm supposed to do. How should I act on what I saw?

3 things you can do are at the end of the video. pretty self-explanatory.

[Calenhardon]

It's an interesting topic, not the least because of its subject matter, but because of those behind it (as many have pointed out). The conclusions I drew from it were as follows.

a) The focus should be on Kony, not on the organisation behind the initiative. Giving it that sort of credit will only feed something that's objectionable in its own right.
b) The simplification within the video is also deeply harmful, and equates to propaganda in its own right. The LRA's motives aren't 'to sustain power' - they have a religious basis to their movement, and countless other qualities, that need to be understood beyond what the video says.
c) Let's remember that idealism moves things, but practicality keeps them running; there are a hundred US advisors in-country already, finding such a prominent leader without escalating the conflict unacceptably is difficult, and we have to approach the matter with realistic expectations and an understanding of the issues at hand.
d) That said, this is a deeply objectionable man, by Ugandan social and political standards let alone our own, Western ones. And if anything we can do will help bring him in, I think that's worth doing, especially when it requires so little from us. Just remember to take the video itself and those who made it with a pinch of salt ,and make sure others do as well.

Just my take on the issue.

The problem is that from the video, it seems very much to be about Jason Russell and Invisible Children. Its a short-sighted response that strikes me as more emotionally driven to "do something" than actually thinking through what they're proposing and what the consequences would be. Look at the link above. Only 32% of IC's budget goes to actually providing services. The rest of it is staff and film production. This is appalling. All the "awareness" in the world isn't going to do a damn thing. Building up the relevant governments and societies is the only thing that will put an end to the LRA once and for all.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

My nation has full support for Mr. Kony. We shall offer him asylum, if the situation arises in which he needs it.
Yours sincerely,
The Colonel.

This is so fantastically out-of-place.

[Anemos Major]

The problem is that from the video, it seems very much to be about Jason Russell and Invisible Children. Its a short-sighted response that strikes me as more emotionally driven to "do something" than actually thinking through what they're proposing and what the consequences would be. Look at the link above. Only 32% of IC's budget goes to actually providing services. The rest of it is staff and film production. This is appalling. All the "awareness" in the world isn't going to do a damn thing. Building up the relevant governments and societies is the only thing that will put an end to the LRA once and for all.

Well, there's no guarantee that awareness will do anything, sure. But in democracies affected by public opinion, there's a pretty good chance it will if it can build up momentum - as far as the LRA is concerned, as an armed organisation with an agenda, cutting off the serpent's head is arguably necessary to allow the development of government and societies.

Don't misunderstand me - I'm a devotee to realpolitik of sorts. And from that point of view, Kony is a destabilising influence, many larger nations who can bring him in (such as the US with their advisers) are democracies and thus affected by public opinion, and utilising that to bring Kony in will have net beneficial effects on a Uganda which will otherwise struggle to develop in the face of insurgency.

And that's without taking my personal value system into account, which despises this man - his beliefs, his agenda and his methods.

[Fedeledland]

So many naive people on here. Do you really think that supporting a government that has actively promoted the prohibition of homosexuality is really the best solution to this problem?

So you'd rather have a crazy mass-murderer than a somewhat extremist conservative government?

[Kengrieland]

I was reading through the comments and was getting panicked that after many comments, no-one was mentioning some big red flags about this whole phenomenon. I'm glad people like Alyakia, Jakaragua and the Joseon Dynasty have given some food for thought.

Please don't jump on the bandwagon...

... at least not without understanding a great many things surrounding this whole thing. I'm not saying that I have the answers however.

First of all, as someone rightly mentioned, this campaign or movement (or however we want to define it) is playing on sensationalism. This seems to toy with the premise that everyone's in it together. You can help just by using your facebook and Twitter accounts, and maybe by donating a little of your money. The video seems to simplify the problem and at the end even sets it out in stages as if these are levels in a game that we can all be a part of in order to "beat the final boss" and save the day. Other people have been campaigning for years but because this time it seems more interactive and wants to make you feel included in something, people are more ready to join in. The video also plays on stereotypes and pulling on heart strings to entice viewers into feeling they should act. I am not saying that Kony is innocent in any way and we should rightly try to seek justice, but as I shall mention in my third section, the bodies that IC are supporting are not without their faults.

Second, this not-for-profit organisation currently does not have a sturdy standing as far as not-for-profit organisations go. Charity watchdogs and political analysts alike have highlighted the fact. Only a reported 31% goes toward the cause, where the remainder goes towards documenting the cause and travel for the group at the top of this organisation. IC have not denied this, but also have not made their costs transparent to charity watchdogs. That does raise a red flag and one should really think before donating or even endorsing the charity.

Thirdly, IC wants to send American military aid to Uganda but also prides the fact that IC's followers favour peace. Whereas America already has decided to aid Uganda in this matter, by indirectly supporting the military of Uganda, there runs the risk of even more blood shed. We also should bear in mind that Kony is not in Uganda and hasn't been for a few years. You should also know that the Ugandan army are known to have employed the same tactics as the LRA including use of child soldiers, murder, torture and mutilation of people in the northern regions of Uganda and use of rape and looting. So why would you want to stop a rebel force by using a national body that could potentially use the very means that you are fighting against?

Anyway, I'll end this message here as I had not intended for it to run on this long, even though I haven't dealt with many of the issues that I would have wanted to raise. All I ask is that you do your research and make an informed decision into whether you want to support IC or not. The world isn't as black and white as they are trying to make it out to be.

EDIT:
I forgot to mention actually about how difficult it is for me to personally support the organisation.
Let's imagine that this campaign achieves its goal. That could potentially solve one problem in the region which, in turn, could allow for peace and an increased quality of life for many people. However in Uganda alone, there are many other problems that would need addressing. First, as I have mentioned, the current regime has been known to commit atrocities. There is also the human rights issue concerning LGBT citizens in Uganda whereby laws could be passed in the near future which could endanger the lives of people "committing" homosexual acts, the highest penalty for which would be capital punishment. Furthermore, another issue within the region and throughout many countries in Africa, again relating to the well-being of children, is children becoming victims of witchcraft accusation, whereby many children are abandoned, tortured and even murdered (or sacrificed) simply because they are perceived to be witches.

For me it then becomes an ethical problem. What do we do if Kony is captured? Do we then say the job is done and leave the rest of the down-trodden in Ugandan society (including children who IC wish to protect!) to deal with their problems? Or do we seek to "fix" those problems too by directly intervening and changing their ways to come in line with ours, which we would then be indirectly saying are more ethical and therefore "right"?

[The Matthew Islands]

Woah, now. Suddenly the Ugandan government are the good guys now? Suddenly we've all gone back to the mindset that if the US marches in everything will be sparkly happy and no more blood will ever be shed? That one evildoer's fate will inspire dozens of other evildoers across Africa to have a change of heart and stop their atrocities? Pu-lease.

http://www.afrol.com/articles/11238

Seriously, fuck Invisible Children and their support for an army that uses rape as a weapon.

i did a quick search to see if anyone had posted this yet, but this seems close enough so i'll tack into your post!

Military intervention may or may not be the right idea, but people supporting KONY 2012 probably don’t realize they’re supporting the Ugandan military who are themselves raping and looting away. If people know this and still support Invisible Children because they feel it’s the best solution based on their knowledge and research, I have no issue with that. But I don’t think most people are in that position, and that’s a problem.

@Alyakia and Jakaragua

So how would you arrest Kony to be brought to the ICC?

[Fartsniffage]

Went to buy a bracelet.

A $10 bracelet somehow costs $20 in postage...

[The Truth and Light]

Went to buy a bracelet.

A $10 bracelet somehow costs $20 in postage...

Overseas shipping?

[Genivaria]

Thats the Spirit! I used to be in the Invisible Children's club back in high school.

I can't tell if your being sarcastic with "That's the spirit". I'd rather him be arrested, but if we can't arrest him, and our only way to save the kids is to kill him, then we'll have to do it.

I'm not. Anyone who conscripts child soldiers into their forces should be crucified in my opinion.

[Fartsniffage]

Went to buy a bracelet.

A $10 bracelet somehow costs $20 in postage...

Overseas shipping?

If I want to send a small package to the US it'll cost £5 max.