**Living in a new country**

[Neesika]

Yes, it is pointless, especially when he chooses to resort to low blows like saying his views of Franco are re-enforced. In other words, he supports the historical attrocities committed by a dictatorship. Typical of the person who has never lived in a dictatorship. My family was a victim of Franco.

I'm glad you see that the efforts you've engaged in have been pointless. No point in wasting time and emotional currency.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Well, feel free to not speak up when the opportunity arises. As I suspect the vast majority of the forum will disagree with you, perhaps you should stop harassing TAI for something which happens in literally every second thread.

Harassing TAI? When and if I choose to refute TAI's arguments, that's my choice. If he thinks I'm ''harassing'' him, he can take it up with me or with Moderation. If your argument is lacking and I know, trust me, I will point it out.

Pointing it out without showing how it is lacking is an entirely one-sided exercise. Not a debate, not even a discussion. Just idle commentary made for the sake of...well on that point I'm not really sure.

Is TAI aggravating, irritating, condescending, etc etc? Certainly, and it's not hard to find examples of how. Are the things he is saying wrong? I wouldn't doubt it. Have you refuted him? I haven't seen it.

I'm going to stay away from this debate. It angers me because of its undertones. If I'm angry, I can't debate, at all.

If I offended anyone with this, in any way, my apologies.

[The Atlantian islands]

I'd hope not, seeing as I added a 'wink' to it. Though internet sarcasm is not the easiest thing to get. (I'm pretty sure that would be chlamydia.)

Winks are ambiguous. I was afraid you'd gone soft in the head from all the siestaing you've been doing. You make me want to chew my own arm off sometimes, but I don't consider you unintelligent. I was just checking.

I sometimes don't totally loathe your posts. This is one of those times.

The siestaing was getting to me. So I joined a gym here and am working out, swimming and running and am gonna start swim practice soon, so I don't just sit around and get drunk and talk about Spanish politics during the afternoon.

[The Atlantian islands]

I'm going to stay away from this debate. It angers me because of its undertones. If I'm angry, I can't debate, at all.

I'd encourage you to stay and just post mor rationally. I LIKE to hear other peoples' opinions, especially about something to center to my life right now.

If I offended anyone with this, in any way, my apologies.

You didn't, so you shouldn't leave.

[Neesika]

Efficiency and progression, everything is slower here, or broken, or outdated and the name of the game seems to be taking it easy at the expense of updating, progression and a clean, efficient, working system.

I wanted to pull this comment out of your OP, and suggest to you that this is indicative of a different worldview. Living in a society where 40+hour workweeks are the norm, leisure time has to be scheduled in, and you long for retirement years and years away so you can finally take it easy, I can certainly see the appeal of doing things differently, even at the expense of the things you've mentioned.

[The Atlantian islands]

Efficiency and progression, everything is slower here, or broken, or outdated and the name of the game seems to be taking it easy at the expense of updating, progression and a clean, efficient, working system.

I wanted to pull this comment out of your OP, and suggest to you that this is indicative of a different worldview. Living in a society where 40+hour workweeks are the norm, leisure time has to be scheduled in, and you long for retirement years and years away so you can finally take it easy, I can certainly see the appeal of doing things differently, even at the expense of the things you've mentioned.

Indeed. Some I've talked to call it the difference between 'living to work and working to live'.

[Neesika]

I'm going to stay away from this debate. It angers me because of its undertones. If I'm angry, I can't debate, at all.

If I offended anyone with this, in any way, my apologies.

I think that many people do not recognise this about themselves, and actually believe they are, in fact, capable of debate while angry. I'm sure we all have certain topics that piss us off enough to make it difficult, if not impossible, to discuss it rationally. I hope I can see when I need to step away from a debate because I'm unable to see past my anger.

[Neesika]

Indeed. Some I've talked to call it the difference between 'living to work and working to live'.

YES! This has been a constant theme in my life, because of course I've straddled two worldviews since birth. On one side, the goal is to enjoy your life now, not save it up for later, and on the other side you've got that Calvanist work ethic that makes you feel guilty for wasting time. A lot of assumptions went unchallenged until I was older, such as the idea that it was of utmost importance to find a career that I could really throw myself into and love. Why? Because it is so important to define yourself by your work. My goal then shifted to finding the kind of flexible employment that would provide excellent financial and social stability whilst also allowing me to raise my family and enjoy myself as often as possible. Who cares if I really love the work? Making that conscious decision has not completely erased the guilt I feel when I'm sitting around chatting with friends instead of studying or doing something more 'productive' however. Living in this society means that I will probably always feel that pressure and have difficulty completely separating myself from it. I can see the draw in living somewhere more aligned with my values, but I've been through a lifetime of indoctrination and it's not so easy to shake. Living in certain aboriginal communities where time runs at a different pace has at times been incredibly frustrating for me, because Calvin is all up in my bizniz, even when I told the bastard I didn't want to see him anymore.

[Aelosia]

As for your father, well, you know the conflicts about nationalism back home. I can understand your dad's prejudice. Euskal Herría is always in ''jaque mate'' with the rest of the Peninsula, but I don't blame them.

Why would his conflcits of nationalism make him describe the people as warm and fun, yet the region as underdeveloped, non-efficient and dirty?[/quote]

Because my dad is like you. Basque people are known by being efficient, neat, progressive, and generally, not really empathic.

Everyone knows that southern Spain (Andalucia in particular) is largely the most underdeveloped part of Spain. Yes, it is my zone but it no secret to the non-Latin world that Southern Europe tends to be more dirty, less efficient, more relaxed and more underdeveloped than Central or Northern Europe (and America/Canada). It's just that in Spain, they are further less-developed areas, like the south. So IN Spain Northern parts of Spain would be considered developed and clean when compared to like Andalucia, but Spain in general when compared to America/Canada, Northern and Western Europe would be, in general, more dirty, more underdeveloped and less efficient.

No, no, certain parts of southern Europe TEND to be more dirty, less efficient, more relaxed and more underdeveloped than Central or Northern Europe (and America/Canada). I have been in more dirty, less efficient, and more underdeveloped places in Central, Northern Europe and THE US OF AMERICA. Specially the latter.

So, no, sorry, Spain in general doesn't seem to be more dirty, more underdeveloped and less efficient than America in general, truly. According to my experience, that is. That is false, and more likely a mistake of your perception. Perhaps you live in a really clean hub up there in the states.

I'd like to see where I claimed the people here are worthless pigs? I am actually very much enjoying my time here and everyone has been wonderful to me.

No, you didn't say it. That was a little joke for nanatsu. Neither I exactly said you said it, see?

As to what your father said, I was just having this discussion with a friend who likes the lifestyle here. She said that here people are just more relaxed and don't care so much about work and progress, efficiency and neatness, but rather about friends, family and just enjoying life. It just depends on what the qualities that you look for in a society are.

Perhaps. That is what I say related to the place where I live, (Caracas, Venezuela), in compariason to where I could live, (Basque Country, Spain). Here people care about being merry, happy, enjoy everything and care about friends and family, a lot more than over there. Go and figure and compare your standard with the venezuelan one, which is higher/lower than the spanish in the same way. Here people care MORE about happiness, friends and family, and LESS about efficiency, neatness or progress.

[Hydesland]

I don't particularly like Spain, and I can't really articulate why. It's nice to go on holiday to, and a lot of the people there are really cool, but I just never feel comfortable there, so I wouldn't like to live there.

[Neesika]

I don't particularly like Spain, and I can't really articulate why. It's nice to go on holiday to, and a lot of the people there are really cool, but I just never feel comfortable there, so I wouldn't like to live there.

I'd be interested in you being able to articulate the reasons for your discomfort. I find it odd you haven't explored the issue more, but I'm one of those 'have to know why' people.

[The Atlantian islands]

Indeed. Some I've talked to call it the difference between 'living to work and working to live'.

YES! This has been a constant theme in my life, because of course I've straddled two worldviews since birth. On one side, the goal is to enjoy your life now, not save it up for later, and on the other side you've got that Calvanist work ethic that makes you feel guilty for wasting time. A lot of assumptions went unchallenged until I was older, such as the idea that it was of utmost importance to find a career that I could really throw myself into and love. Why? Because it is so important to define yourself by your work. My goal then shifted to finding the kind of flexible employment that would provide excellent financial and social stability whilst also allowing me to raise my family and enjoy myself as often as possible. Who cares if I really love the work? Making that conscious decision has not completely erased the guilt I feel when I'm sitting around chatting with friends instead of studying or doing something more 'productive' however. Living in this society means that I will probably always feel that pressure and have difficulty completely separating myself from it. I can see the draw in living somewhere more aligned with my values, but I've been through a lifetime of indoctrination and it's not so easy to shake. Living in certain aboriginal communities where time runs at a different pace has at times been incredibly frustrating for me, because Calvin is all up in my bizniz, even when I told the bastard I didn't want to see him anymore.

Right. And it's only natural that socities that are "work to live" have different generalizations about them than "live to work" socities.

Work to live socities are known by having warmer, more "true" people, a more casual and enjoyable lifestyle, much more importance on family time and in general much more of a stress-free, live for the moment atmosphere.

While live to work socities are known as having a higher standard of living, being cleaner, having more "industrious" and "productive" work forces, being more technology bearing and naturally more technologically advanced, with a more efficient and 'time oriented' culture this is better for active, on-the-go and bussiness lifestyles.

While these are generalizations I do bace them on real life travels and experiences as well as general cultural understandings, and I'd hope that you'd agree, in general.

Now, being from a live to work culture, I find problems with alot of the mentality in Spain. But that is not because I am American. A work to live British dude, German, Swiss, Austrian, Swede, Norwegian, Canadian etc..would have the same problems. However, it is not my country and I realize that if people here enjoy living like this, they have every right to continue doing so.

However, they should not act suprised when they run into economic problems . . . and alot of Spain's recent boom came from joining the EU and the fact that because of its climate, there was a HUGE housing boom here . . . but both of those are independent of the results on the economy of the Spanish lifestyle. What I'm trying to say is Spain is going to have to deal with its socio-economic problems because of the extreme work-to-live culture it embraces, just like, say, Germany will have to deal with its stress related problems because of its extreme live-to-work culture.

[The Atlantian islands]

Because my dad is like you. Basque people are known by being efficient, neat, progressive, and generally, not really empathic.

I really, really want to visit Basque country while I'm here in Spain.

Perhaps. That is what I say related to the place where I live, (Caracas, Venezuela), in compariason to where I could live, (Basque Country, Spain). Here people care about being merry, happy, enjoy everything and care about friends and family, a lot more than over there. Go and figure and compare your standard with the venezuelan one, which is higher/lower than the spanish in the same way. Here people care MORE about happiness, friends and family, and LESS about efficiency, neatness or progress.

Indeed.

[The Atlantian islands]

The Basque Country seems awesome. It is funny to me, though, that by far the richest part of Spain isn't even Spanish.

[Hydesland]

I'd be interested in you being able to articulate the reasons for your discomfort. I find it odd you haven't explored the issue more, but I'm one of those 'have to know why' people.

It might have something to do with the weather, I find it difficult to live in hot areas for a long time, but then again I would like to live in some hot parts of France and some hot parts of the US. Hmmm.

[The Atlantian islands]

To everyone who was just involved in that discussion about Spain and the Basques and everything, I'll have you know that I JUST received a phone call from a friend of mine in the north inviting me to Basque country this weekend. Going to get my train ticket

[Western Mercenary Unio]

I haven't moved anywhere, but I want to move to the UK someday, don't know exactly where. Maybe Glasgow.

[Aelosia]

Indeed. Some I've talked to call it the difference between 'living to work and working to live'.

YES! *snip*

Right. And it's only natural that socities that are "work to live" have different generalizations about them than "live to work" socities. *snip*

All you two have said...It is true.

I have the same dichotomy in my life. I am half "livin' la vida loca" latina, and half "hard working stub nosed progressive northern european". It is hard for me to find a balance between the two. Sometimes I think I have two personalities. It's truly, truly complex. Sometimes I live to work, sometimes I work to live.

The problem is, no matter what I do, I am the pariah everywhere I go. I work to live too much for my spanish/basque family, and I live to work too much for Venezuela. I find the Basque Country too boring, and Venezuela too disorganized for my tastes. In other words, I'm fucked up no matter what.

I really, really want to visit Basque country while I'm here in Spain.

Go there, you will find it truly different to Andalucía, (unless you go there while the fiestas, when the cities turn into Andalucía for a week). If I can recommend you a place, try Vitoria, it is a small city, almost a toy city, where everything is highly traditional, and yet everything is clean, neat, and perfect. And more "live to work" people.

And don't let Nanatsu read that part about the "richest part of Spain is not spanish", she is going to have a seizure. And any catalán is going to hang you on a post for saying that Catalunya is not the richest part of Spain.

[Hydesland]

I haven't moved anywhere, but I want to move to the UK someday, don't know exactly where. Maybe Glasgow.

You want to move to Glasgow, what are you mad?

[Western Mercenary Unio]

You want to move to Glasgow, what are you mad?

I said, maybe Glasgow, I haven't decided it yet.

[Hydesland]

You want to move to Glasgow, what are you mad?

I said, maybe Glasgow, I haven't decided it yet.

But even considering it as a possibility is crazy. But I jest. Seriously though, why do you want to move there?

[Czardas]

You want to move to Glasgow, what are you mad?

I said, maybe Glasgow, I haven't decided it yet.

But even considering it as a possibility is crazy. But I jest. Seriously though, why do you want to move there?

It's Scotland -- perfect weather, well-behaved and sober people, an easy-to-learn language, the economy's booming, etc. -- who wouldn't?

[Western Mercenary Unio]

But even considering it as a possibility is crazy. But I jest. Seriously though, why do you want to move there?

Because, I've always liked Scotland and wanted to live there. But, nothing's written in stone.

It's Scotland -- perfect weather, well-behaved and sober people, an easy-to-learn language, the economy's booming, etc. -- who wouldn't?

Just like there's sober people here in Finland where binge drinking is a tradition, and just like the economy's booming everywhere else?

[Hydesland]

Because, I've always liked Scotland and wanted to live there. But, nothing's written in stone.

Well I would recommend Edinburgh over Glasgow.

[Western Mercenary Unio]

Well I would recommend Edinburgh over Glasgow.

Well, as I'm just a 14-year old Finn, with little information on the situation there, I'll take your advice about it.