**Living in a new country**

[The Atlantian islands]

You know, I've been to Andalucía, several times, and I found it to be enchanting. The andaluces are charming, hardworking and love their province, and when people are charming and hardworking like they are, on my book, they're not worthless pigs.

They are charming, love their province and are certainly not worthess pigs, as nobody here has claimed. But hardworking, reality disagrees. For example, in Spain, youth unemployment is around 40%, and everyone knows that unemployment is higher in the south than the rest of Spain.

Seville is what it is due to the large amount of tourists it recieves. Tourists that are rowdy, obnoxious and that have contributed to the decline of the city. But when tourists go away, gracias a Dios, things are pretty normal.

Ah yes, blame it on the foreingers. Please, I have been discussing exactly this with many Germans and Americans, who have all been shocked by how slow, ineffiecient (often broken) and dirty the place is. To put that blame on us, who are the ones who arrived shocked, culturally acustomed to more efficient, cleaner, richer areas makes absolutely no sense.

I don't take kindly when foreigners like TAI speak out of their asses. He's been living, actually living in Spain, for what, less than a week, and is already spouting crap? Pffft, digamos que el tío lo que sabe es hablar mierda.

But you still haven't told me what exactly I've said that's been out of my ass? What have I made up?

As for your father, well, you know the conflicts about nationalism back home. I can understand your dad's prejudice. Euskal Herría is always in ''jaque mate'' with the rest of the Peninsula, but I don't blame them.

Why would his conflcits of nationalism make him describe the people as warm and fun, yet the region as underdeveloped, non-efficient and dirty?

[The Atlantian islands]

Considering he arrived with his considerable "anglo saxon" snobbery, its hardly suprising he's managed to find fault, regardless of whether its there or not.....

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

You know, I've been to Andalucía, several times, and I found it to be enchanting. The andaluces are charming, hardworking and love their province, and when people are charming and hardworking like they are, on my book, they're not worthless pigs.

They are charming, love their province and are certainly not worthess pigs, as nobody here has claimed. But hardworking, reality disagrees. For example, in Spain, youth unemployment is around 40%, and everyone knows that unemployment is higher in the south than the rest of Spain.

Seville is what it is due to the large amount of tourists it recieves. Tourists that are rowdy, obnoxious and that have contributed to the decline of the city. But when tourists go away, gracias a Dios, things are pretty normal.

Ah yes, blame it on the foreingers. Please, I have been discussing exactly this with many Germans and Americans, who have all been shocked by how slow, ineffiecient (often broken) and dirty the place is. To put that blame on us, who are the ones who arrived shocked, culturally acustomed to more efficient, cleaner, richer areas makes absolutely no sense.

I don't take kindly when foreigners like TAI speak out of their asses. He's been living, actually living in Spain, for what, less than a week, and is already spouting crap? Pffft, digamos que el tío lo que sabe es hablar mierda.

But you still haven't told me what exactly I've said that's been out of my ass? What have I made up?

As for your father, well, you know the conflicts about nationalism back home. I can understand your dad's prejudice. Euskal Herría is always in ''jaque mate'' with the rest of the Peninsula, but I don't blame them.

Why would his conflcits of nationalism make him describe the people as warm and fun, yet the region as underdeveloped, non-efficient and dirty?

You know TAI. I have been wondering about your asshattery here and I need to ask you a question. If you're finding so much fault about Southern Spain, and Spain in general, why are you living there in the first place? For all your claims that you wish to know about living in other places, your typical American prejudices (and you forget that the US is just a small part of the planet) are ''a flor de piel''. Really. These will hamper your horizon widening, or attempts of.

It seems you lack the proper knowledge about the region in the first place, especially just how much nationalism affects the views of the Spanish people. I suggest you get acquainted with this little fact before, well, making an ass of yourself.

[Veblenia]

Considering he arrived with his considerable "anglo saxon" snobbery, its hardly suprising he's managed to find fault, regardless of whether its there or not.....

*image snip*

I just threw up a little.

[The Atlantian islands]

You know TAI. I have been wondering about your asshattery here and I need to ask you a question. If you're finding so much fault about Southern Spain, and Spain in general, why are you living there in the first place? For all your claims that you wish to know about living in other places, your typical American prejudices (and you forget that the US is just a small part of the planet) are ''a flor de piel''. Really. These will hamper your horizon widening, or attempts of.

I am living here because I'm enjoying it. Really, I can enjoy it here without being blind to all its faults. I really enjoy spending time with Italy but that doesn't mean I close my eyes to all that's wrong with Italy. Just because either you are so pro-Spanish that you refuse to recognize the faults that hamper Spain, or you, being Spanish, are just used too it and don't see them as faults, doesn't mean it is so. Don't try to pin it on me being American, pin it on me not being Spanish. As I've said, other non-Spanish people from America, or the UK, or Germany, or Switzerland for example, say that exact same things here about Spain in general and Andalucia in particular. It is not because we are American, or Swiss, or German, or British, but because we are not Spanish. I don't know how you don't see this?

It seems you lack the proper knowledge about the region in the first place, especially just how much nationalism affects the views of the Spanish people. I suggest you get acquainted with this little fact before, well, making an ass of yourself.

What knowledge am I lacking here? I have not made an ass of myself, and you have not even come close to proving so.

[The Atlantian islands]

I just threw up a little.

Well, I told you not to eat that old, moldy piece of soggy drywall . . .

[Neesika]

We should just ignore anything TAI has to say because we find his views reprehensible, and therefore, even if he says that water is wet, we should discount his unfounded opinion on the matter because we really don’t like him.

Refuting his assertions with facts is too much work, and an effort that should not be wasted on someone we dislike intensely.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I am living here because I'm enjoying it. Really, I can enjoy it here without being blinds to all its faults. I really enjoy spending time with Italy but that doesn't mean I close my eyes to all that's wrong with Italy.

This doesn't mean you're entitled, in any way, to critisize. Are you Spanish? No. So keep quiet.

Just because either you are so pro-Spanish that you refuse to recognize the faults that hamper Spain, or you, being Spanish, are just used too it and don't see them as faults, doesn't mean it is so.

No child. I see the faults of my country, very well. The difference between you and I is that I am from Spain and I can talk. You're not. Keep your mouth shut.

Don't try to pin it on me being American, pin it on me not being Spanish. As I've said, other non-Spanish people from America, or the UK, or Germany, or Switzerland for example, say that exact same things here about Spain in general and Andalucia in particular. It is not because we are American, or Swiss, or German, or British, but because we are not Spanish. I don't know how you don't see this?

I pin it on your foreign status. You think all the world has to adjust itself to your preconcieved notions of order and what's right. You're mistaken on this. If you think Spain is faulty because it doesn't, in any way, accomodate to your notions of ''progress'' or order, sweetie, you can always, you know, leave.

What knowledge am I lacking here? I have not made an ass of myself, and you have not even come close to proving so.

Do you know anything, at all, about nationalism in Spain? Because if you did, you would know from where Aeilosia's dad comes from and why he may think the way he does, and wouldn't be asking inane questions. Yes? Now that you're in Spain, do yourself a favor and, I don't know, get in touch with people there and... well, learn.

[Veblenia]

I just threw up a little.

Well, I told you not to eat that old, moldy piece of soggy drywall . . .

You mean that piece of the Anglosphere? Yeah, looking back that was a mistake.

[The Atlantian islands]

We should just ignore anything TAI has to say because we find his views reprehensible, and therefore, even if he says that water is wet, we should discount his unfounded opinion on the matter because we really don’t like him.

Refuting his assertions with facts is too much work, and an effort that should not be wasted on someone we dislike intensely.

That's fine. Just one less person to respond to. I don't really mind.

[Neesika]

We should just ignore anything TAI has to say because we find his views reprehensible, and therefore, even if he says that water is wet, we should discount his unfounded opinion on the matter because we really don’t like him.

Refuting his assertions with facts is too much work, and an effort that should not be wasted on someone we dislike intensely.

That's fine. Just one less person to respond to. I don't really mind.

...

Did that actually go over your head?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

We should just ignore anything TAI has to say because we find his views reprehensible, and therefore, even if he says that water is wet, we should discount his unfounded opinion on the matter because we really don’t like him.

Refuting his assertions with facts is too much work, and an effort that should not be wasted on someone we dislike intensely.

I understand that, very well, Sin. But how would you take it if I went to Canada, met some people from the First Nations, Cree (to bring the example close to you) and just because they didn't adjust to my world views of what's wrong or right or I didn't know shit about them (I don't), I started babbling and calling them ''dirty'' or ''not progressive enough''?

[Hamilay]

I am living here because I'm enjoying it. Really, I can enjoy it here without being blinds to all its faults. I really enjoy spending time with Italy but that doesn't mean I close my eyes to all that's wrong with Italy.

This doesn't mean you're entitled, in any way, to critisize. Are you Spanish? No. So keep quiet.

Yes, because nobody ever criticises countries they aren't from on NSG and we all agree the tiny minority of people who do should shut up.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I am living here because I'm enjoying it. Really, I can enjoy it here without being blinds to all its faults. I really enjoy spending time with Italy but that doesn't mean I close my eyes to all that's wrong with Italy.

This doesn't mean you're entitled, in any way, to critisize. Are you Spanish? No. So keep quiet.

Yes, because nobody ever criticises countries they aren't from on NSG and we all agree the tiny minority of people who do should shut up.

Yes, they should shut up. I find many faults with the US, many. I lived there and will be doing so in a matter of months. But just because I, a Spaniard, feel that there are a lot of things wrong with the US and that they do not adjust to what I think is right, I'm entitled to critisize them. So yes, when it comes to critisize the US, since I'm not American and I don't live there nor will do so for an extended time, yes, I should shut up.

[Hamilay]

I am living here because I'm enjoying it. Really, I can enjoy it here without being blinds to all its faults. I really enjoy spending time with Italy but that doesn't mean I close my eyes to all that's wrong with Italy.

This doesn't mean you're entitled, in any way, to critisize. Are you Spanish? No. So keep quiet.

Yes, because nobody ever criticises countries they aren't from on NSG and we all agree the tiny minority of people who do should shut up.

Yes, they should shut up. I find many faults with the US, many. I lived there and will be doing so in a matter of months. But just because I, a Spaniard, feel that there are a lot of things wrong with the US and that they do not adjust to what I think is right, I'm entitled to critisize them. So yes, when it comes to critisize the US, since I'm not American and I don't live there nor will do so for an extended time, yes, I should shut up.

Well, feel free to not speak up when the opportunity arises. As I suspect the vast majority of the forum will disagree with you, perhaps you should stop harassing TAI for something which happens in literally every second thread.

[The Atlantian islands]

This doesn't mean you're entitled, in any way, to critisize. Are you Spanish? No. So keep quiet.

How closed minded of you. Usually, when people are that critical of criticism, it's because they are not very confident in what is being critisized.

Just because either you are so pro-Spanish that you refuse to recognize the faults that hamper Spain, or you, being Spanish, are just used too it and don't see them as faults, doesn't mean it is so.

No child. I see the faults of my country, very well. The difference between you and I is that I am from Spain and I can talk. You're not. Keep your mouth shut.

Spain is part of the global community and many parts of Spain would hardly even exist without tourism and "foreigners". Therefore, like it or not, your country values foreingers.

I should tell you, that the Spanish family I'm living with are huge supporters of Franco and many in the family served with him. I took your advise and spoke with real Spanish people about Franco and the civil war, and they happend to approve of Franco. Fancy that? The ironic thing is, they are hardly as closed minded as you when it comes to criticism.

Don't try to pin it on me being American, pin it on me not being Spanish. As I've said, other non-Spanish people from America, or the UK, or Germany, or Switzerland for example, say that exact same things here about Spain in general and Andalucia in particular. It is not because we are American, or Swiss, or German, or British, but because we are not Spanish. I don't know how you don't see this?

I pin it on your foreign status. You think all the world has to adjust itself to your preconcieved notions of order and what's right. You're mistaken on this. If you think Spain is faulty because it doesn't, in any way, accomodate to your notions of ''progress'' or order, sweetie, you can always, you know, leave.

Spain has serious problems with its socio-economic problems, and that has nothing to do with me being foreign, whether I'm Swiss, American, German or British. Non-Spanish people who come here see that things are more dirty here, upkeep is not a priority, and things are less efficient, but realize, as I do, that those may not be priorities to the people who live here, who may put spending time with their families or relaxing in a cafe or coming home to eat lunch more important than efficiency and hardworkingness.

Spain can stay the way it wants if its people would like it to, but they'll also have to deal with a lower standard of living, a ridiculous unemployment rate and much lower opportunity.

But hey, they could always emmigrate to get away from that.

What knowledge am I lacking here? I have not made an ass of myself, and you have not even come close to proving so.

Do you know anything, at all, about nationalism in Spain? Because if you did, you would know from where Aeilosia's dad comes from and why he may think the way he does, and wouldn't be asking inane questions. Yes? Now that you're in Spain, do yourself a favor and, I don't know, get in touch with people there and... well, learn.

Of course I do. Everyone knows about the Basques and their problems with Spain. But those problems with Spain are about not having their soverignty and/or indepdendence and not about whether Seville, as a city, is dirty, inefficient and underdeveloped.

I make it part of my experience here to talk to everyone I meet about politics and economics and society in Spain . . . but I wonder what you'll say when I inform you that, after talking to Spanish people, my notions about things like Franco, for example, were re-inforced?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Well, feel free to not speak up when the opportunity arises. As I suspect the vast majority of the forum will disagree with you, perhaps you should stop harassing TAI for something which happens in literally every second thread.

Harassing TAI? When and if I choose to refute TAI's arguments, that's my choice. If he thinks I'm ''harassing'' him, he can take it up with me or with Moderation. If your argument is lacking and I know, trust me, I will point it out.

[The Atlantian islands]

We should just ignore anything TAI has to say because we find his views reprehensible, and therefore, even if he says that water is wet, we should discount his unfounded opinion on the matter because we really don’t like him.

Refuting his assertions with facts is too much work, and an effort that should not be wasted on someone we dislike intensely.

That's fine. Just one less person to respond to. I don't really mind.

...

Did that actually go over your head?

I'd hope not, seeing as I added a 'wink' to it. Though internet sarcasm is not the easiest thing to get. (I'm pretty sure that would be chlamydia.)

[Neesika]

I understand that, very well, Sin. But how would you take it if I went to Canada, met some people from the First Nations, Cree (to bring the example close to you) and just because they didn't adjust to my world views of what's wrong or right or I didn't know shit about them (I don't), I started babbling and calling them ''dirty'' or ''not progressive enough''?

I'd find out what his specific complaints were, and I'd discuss them, giving my own concrete examples.

Or I wouldn't even bother to engage in debate with him at all. This middle ground of just calling him an ignorant USian seems a pointless waste of energy. One that I freely admit has been a habit of mine as well when dealing with TAI.

[The Atlantian islands]

Well, feel free to not speak up when the opportunity arises. As I suspect the vast majority of the forum will disagree with you, perhaps you should stop harassing TAI for something which happens in literally every second thread.

Harassing TAI? When and if I choose to refute TAI's arguments, that's my choice. If he thinks I'm ''harassing'' him, he can take it up with me or with Moderation. If your argument is lacking and I know, trust me, I will point it out.

You are certainly not harassing me and I wouldn't dream of bringing this to moderation.

Having said that I do agree with Hamilay that it is ridiculous of you to be so closed to criticism, even more so on a forum that EXISTS to be critical of international issues.

[Neesika]

Yes, they should shut up. I find many faults with the US, many. I lived there and will be doing so in a matter of months. But just because I, a Spaniard, feel that there are a lot of things wrong with the US and that they do not adjust to what I think is right, I'm entitled to critisize them. So yes, when it comes to critisize the US, since I'm not American and I don't live there nor will do so for an extended time, yes, I should shut up.

That's a very odd stance to take. What a quiet place the world would be if we had to live absolutely everywhere for extended periods of time before we could make any comments. Quiet, and rather uninspiring.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I understand that, very well, Sin. But how would you take it if I went to Canada, met some people from the First Nations, Cree (to bring the example close to you) and just because they didn't adjust to my world views of what's wrong or right or I didn't know shit about them (I don't), I started babbling and calling them ''dirty'' or ''not progressive enough''?

I'd find out what his specific complaints were, and I'd discuss them, giving my own concrete examples.

Or I wouldn't even bother to engage in debate with him at all. This middle ground of just calling him an ignorant USian seems a pointless waste of energy.

Yes, it is pointless, especially when he chooses to resort to low blows like saying his views of Franco are re-enforced. In other words, he supports the historical attrocities committed by a dictatorship. Typical of the person who has never lived in a dictatorship. My family was a victim of Franco.

[Neesika]

Well, feel free to not speak up when the opportunity arises. As I suspect the vast majority of the forum will disagree with you, perhaps you should stop harassing TAI for something which happens in literally every second thread.

Harassing TAI? When and if I choose to refute TAI's arguments, that's my choice. If he thinks I'm ''harassing'' him, he can take it up with me or with Moderation. If your argument is lacking and I know, trust me, I will point it out.

Pointing it out without showing how it is lacking is an entirely one-sided exercise. Not a debate, not even a discussion. Just idle commentary made for the sake of...well on that point I'm not really sure.

Is TAI aggravating, irritating, condescending, etc etc? Certainly, and it's not hard to find examples of how. Are the things he is saying wrong? I wouldn't doubt it. Have you refuted him? I haven't seen it.

[The Atlantian islands]

I understand that, very well, Sin. But how would you take it if I went to Canada, met some people from the First Nations, Cree (to bring the example close to you) and just because they didn't adjust to my world views of what's wrong or right or I didn't know shit about them (I don't), I started babbling and calling them ''dirty'' or ''not progressive enough''?

I'd find out what his specific complaints were, and I'd discuss them, giving my own concrete examples.

Or I wouldn't even bother to engage in debate with him at all. This middle ground of just calling him an ignorant USian seems a pointless waste of energy.

Yes, it is pointless, especially when he chooses to resort to low blows like saying his views of Franco are re-enforced. In other words, he supports the historical attrocities committed by a dictatorship. Typical of the person who has never lived in a dictatorship. My family was a victim of Franco.

Right, you always said that. But now I am living with a Spanish family that did live under the dictatorship and supported it. I certainly see why some opposed it, and I certainly see why some supported it.

[Neesika]

I'd hope not, seeing as I added a 'wink' to it. Though internet sarcasm is not the easiest thing to get. (I'm pretty sure that would be chlamydia.)

Winks are ambiguous. I was afraid you'd gone soft in the head from all the siestaing you've been doing. You make me want to chew my own arm off sometimes, but I don't consider you unintelligent. I was just checking.