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Newt Gingrich and adolescence

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Quelesh
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Newt Gingrich and adolescence

Postby Quelesh » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:59 am

(I decided to make a new thread about this instead of posting it in the primary megathread, because it's more of a spinoff about one candidate and his views on a particular issue, but if a mod thinks it's more appropriate to merge it with the other thread, feel free to do so.)

Newt Gingrich is sometimes described as a "thinker," a person who has independent, unconventional views but who is too far out of the mainstream to be president. With that in mind, I was wondering what people here think of this article written by Gingrich and published in Business Week in 2008 arguing for the end of the social construct of adolescence.

Newt Gingrich: Let's End Adolescence
Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich says young people need to shift more quickly from childhood to adulthood


It's time to declare the end of adolescence. As a social institution, it's been a failure. The proof is all around us: 19% of eighth graders, 36% of tenth graders, and 47% of twelfth graders say they have used illegal drugs, according to a study by the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the University of Michigan. One of every four girls has a sexually transmitted disease, suggests a recent study for the Centers for Disease Control. A methamphetamine epidemic among the young is destroying lives, families, and communities. And American students are learning at a frighteningly slower rate than Chinese and Indian students.

The solution is dramatic and unavoidable: We have to end adolescence as a social experiment. We tried it. It failed. It's time to move on. Returning to an earlier, more successful model of children rapidly assuming the roles and responsibilities of adults would yield enormous benefit to society.

Prior to the 19th century, it's fair to say that adolescence did not exist. Instead, there was virtually universal acceptance that puberty marked the transition from childhood to young adulthood. Whether with the Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah ceremony of the Jewish faith or confirmation in the Catholic Church or any hundreds of rites of passage in societies around the planet, it was understood you were either a child or a young adult.

In the U.S., this principle of direct transition from the world of childhood play to the world of adult work was clearly established at the time of the Revolutionary War. Benjamin Franklin was an example of this kind of young adulthood. At age 13, Franklin finished school in Boston, was apprenticed to his brother, a printer and publisher, and moved immediately into adulthood.

John Quincy Adams attended Leiden University in Holland at 13 and at 14 was employed as secretary and interpreter by the American Ambassador to Russia. At 16 he was secretary to the U.S. delegation during the negotiations with Britain that ended the Revolution.

Daniel Boone got his first rifle at 12, was an expert hunter at 13, and at 15 made a yearlong trek through the wilderness to begin his career as America's most famous explorer. The list goes on and on.

It is true that life expectancy was shorter in those days and the need to get on with being an adult could be argued. Nevertheless, early adulthood, early responsibility, and early achievement were the norm before the institution of adolescence emerged as a system for delaying adulthood and trapping young people into wasting years of their lives. To regain those benefits, we must develop accelerated learning systems that peg the rate of academic progress to the student's pace and ability to absorb the material, making education more efficient.

Adolescence was invented in the 19th century to enable middle-class families to keep their children out of sweatshops. But it has degenerated into a process of enforced boredom and age segregation that has produced one of the most destructive social arrangements in human history: consigning 13-year-old males to learning from 15-year-old males.

UNDERMINING COMMUNITIES

The costs of this social experiment have been horrendous. For the poor who most need to make money, learn seriously, and accumulate resources, adolescence has helped crush their future. By trapping poor people in bad schools, with no work opportunities and no culture of responsibility, we have left them in poverty, in gangs, in drugs, and in irresponsible sexual activity. As a result, we have ruined several generations of poor people who might have made it if we had provided a different model of being young.

And for too many middle-class and wealthier young Americans, adolescence has been an excuse to delay work, family, and achievement—and thus contribute less to their own well-being and that of their communities.

It's time to change this—to shift to serious work, learning, and responsibility at age 13 instead of age 30. In other words, replace adolescence with young adulthood. But hastening that transition requires integrating learning into life and work. Fortunately, innovations in technology and in financial incentives to learn offer hope.

The Information Age makes it possible for young people to learn much faster than our current failed bureaucracies and obsolete curriculums permit. New systems such as Curriki, founded by Sun Microsystems (JAVA) and now an independent nonprofit, allow a community of teachers and learners to collaborate via the Internet to create quality educational materials for free—giving every American access to learning 24 hours a day.

And experiments such as the one my daughter, Jackie Cushman, is running in Atlanta—where poor children are paid the equivalent of working in a fast-food restaurant to study and do their homework—are examples of a more dynamic future.

In math and science learning, which are among the most important indicators of future prosperity and strength, America lags far behind such emerging powers as China and India. Studying to compete with Asian counterparts in the world market is going to keep U.S. teens busier than anyone ever imagined. This will require year-round learning, with mentors available online, rather than our traditional bureaucratic model of education. But we must go further, toward a dynamic, real-world blueprint for learning.

Indeed, going to school should be a money-making profession if you are good at it and work hard. That would revolutionize our poorest neighborhoods and boost our competitiveness.

The fact is, most young people want to be challenged and given real responsibility. They want to be treated like young men and women, not old children. So consider this simple proposal: High school students who can graduate a year early get the 12th year's cost of schooling as an automatic scholarship to any college or technical school they want to attend. If they graduate two years early, they get two years of scholarships. At no added cost to taxpayers, we would give students an incentive to study as hard as they can and maximize the speed at which they learn.

Once we decide to engage young people in real life, doing real work, earning real money, and thereby acquiring real responsibility, we can transform being young in America. And our nation will become more competitive in the process.


I don't agree with everything that Gingrich says here, but I think he's basically right about adolescence, and that we should treat teenagers as young men and women, not as old children. I think that adolescence is an unnecessary social construct that does significantly more harm than good. What do you guys think of Gingrich's take here?
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New England and The Maritimes
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Postby New England and The Maritimes » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:02 am

Quelesh wrote:(I decided to make a new thread about this instead of posting it in the primary megathread, because it's more of a spinoff about one candidate and his views on a particular issue, but if a mod thinks it's more appropriate to merge it with the other thread, feel free to do so.)

Newt Gingrich is sometimes described as a "thinker," a person who has independent, unconventional views but who is too far out of the mainstream to be president. With that in mind, I was wondering what people here think of this article written by Gingrich and published in Business Week in 2008 arguing for the end of the social construct of adolescence.

Newt Gingrich: Let's End Adolescence
Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich says young people need to shift more quickly from childhood to adulthood


It's time to declare the end of adolescence. As a social institution, it's been a failure. The proof is all around us: 19% of eighth graders, 36% of tenth graders, and 47% of twelfth graders say they have used illegal drugs, according to a study by the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the University of Michigan. One of every four girls has a sexually transmitted disease, suggests a recent study for the Centers for Disease Control. A methamphetamine epidemic among the young is destroying lives, families, and communities. And American students are learning at a frighteningly slower rate than Chinese and Indian students.

The solution is dramatic and unavoidable: We have to end adolescence as a social experiment. We tried it. It failed. It's time to move on. Returning to an earlier, more successful model of children rapidly assuming the roles and responsibilities of adults would yield enormous benefit to society.

Prior to the 19th century, it's fair to say that adolescence did not exist. Instead, there was virtually universal acceptance that puberty marked the transition from childhood to young adulthood. Whether with the Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah ceremony of the Jewish faith or confirmation in the Catholic Church or any hundreds of rites of passage in societies around the planet, it was understood you were either a child or a young adult.

In the U.S., this principle of direct transition from the world of childhood play to the world of adult work was clearly established at the time of the Revolutionary War. Benjamin Franklin was an example of this kind of young adulthood. At age 13, Franklin finished school in Boston, was apprenticed to his brother, a printer and publisher, and moved immediately into adulthood.

John Quincy Adams attended Leiden University in Holland at 13 and at 14 was employed as secretary and interpreter by the American Ambassador to Russia. At 16 he was secretary to the U.S. delegation during the negotiations with Britain that ended the Revolution.

Daniel Boone got his first rifle at 12, was an expert hunter at 13, and at 15 made a yearlong trek through the wilderness to begin his career as America's most famous explorer. The list goes on and on.

It is true that life expectancy was shorter in those days and the need to get on with being an adult could be argued. Nevertheless, early adulthood, early responsibility, and early achievement were the norm before the institution of adolescence emerged as a system for delaying adulthood and trapping young people into wasting years of their lives. To regain those benefits, we must develop accelerated learning systems that peg the rate of academic progress to the student's pace and ability to absorb the material, making education more efficient.

Adolescence was invented in the 19th century to enable middle-class families to keep their children out of sweatshops. But it has degenerated into a process of enforced boredom and age segregation that has produced one of the most destructive social arrangements in human history: consigning 13-year-old males to learning from 15-year-old males.

UNDERMINING COMMUNITIES

The costs of this social experiment have been horrendous. For the poor who most need to make money, learn seriously, and accumulate resources, adolescence has helped crush their future. By trapping poor people in bad schools, with no work opportunities and no culture of responsibility, we have left them in poverty, in gangs, in drugs, and in irresponsible sexual activity. As a result, we have ruined several generations of poor people who might have made it if we had provided a different model of being young.

And for too many middle-class and wealthier young Americans, adolescence has been an excuse to delay work, family, and achievement—and thus contribute less to their own well-being and that of their communities.

It's time to change this—to shift to serious work, learning, and responsibility at age 13 instead of age 30. In other words, replace adolescence with young adulthood. But hastening that transition requires integrating learning into life and work. Fortunately, innovations in technology and in financial incentives to learn offer hope.

The Information Age makes it possible for young people to learn much faster than our current failed bureaucracies and obsolete curriculums permit. New systems such as Curriki, founded by Sun Microsystems (JAVA) and now an independent nonprofit, allow a community of teachers and learners to collaborate via the Internet to create quality educational materials for free—giving every American access to learning 24 hours a day.

And experiments such as the one my daughter, Jackie Cushman, is running in Atlanta—where poor children are paid the equivalent of working in a fast-food restaurant to study and do their homework—are examples of a more dynamic future.

In math and science learning, which are among the most important indicators of future prosperity and strength, America lags far behind such emerging powers as China and India. Studying to compete with Asian counterparts in the world market is going to keep U.S. teens busier than anyone ever imagined. This will require year-round learning, with mentors available online, rather than our traditional bureaucratic model of education. But we must go further, toward a dynamic, real-world blueprint for learning.

Indeed, going to school should be a money-making profession if you are good at it and work hard. That would revolutionize our poorest neighborhoods and boost our competitiveness.

The fact is, most young people want to be challenged and given real responsibility. They want to be treated like young men and women, not old children. So consider this simple proposal: High school students who can graduate a year early get the 12th year's cost of schooling as an automatic scholarship to any college or technical school they want to attend. If they graduate two years early, they get two years of scholarships. At no added cost to taxpayers, we would give students an incentive to study as hard as they can and maximize the speed at which they learn.

Once we decide to engage young people in real life, doing real work, earning real money, and thereby acquiring real responsibility, we can transform being young in America. And our nation will become more competitive in the process.


I don't agree with everything that Gingrich says here, but I think he's basically right about adolescence, and that we should treat teenagers as young men and women, not as old children. I think that adolescence is an unnecessary social construct that does significantly more harm than good. What do you guys think of Gingrich's take here?

No. Newt Gingrich is an idiot who wouldn't know a good idea if it was enacted by the democratic congress during his tenure.

Children need a period of gradual adjustment to responsibilities. If we throw them to the dogs at some arbitrary age, how are we helping them?
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Quelesh
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Postby Quelesh » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:11 am

New England and The Maritimes wrote:Children need a period of gradual adjustment to responsibilities. If we throw them to the dogs at some arbitrary age, how are we helping them?


"Gradual adjustment to responsibilities" doesn't need to take 15 years. People learn by doing; people learn to make good decisions by making bad ones and learning from their mistakes. I think that young children should be exposed to the world and guided through it, given help to make their own decisions rather than having decisions imposed from above without their input, so that they learn how to make their own good decisions without someone holding their hand.
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Postby Hippostania » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:17 am

New England and The Maritimes wrote:No. Newt Gingrich is an idiot who wouldn't know a good idea if it was enacted by the democratic congress during his tenure.

And the Republican bashing begins in the first post. For once I'd like to see the same passion in bashing Obama and Democrats.

But I don't agree with Gingrich here. Young people are usually irresponsible. While agree that teenagers should be responsible for their own actions (you screw something up, you're responsible for it), I think that they do not deserve the same rights as adults. They're simply just too immature for that.
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New England and The Maritimes
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Postby New England and The Maritimes » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:19 am

Quelesh wrote:
New England and The Maritimes wrote:Children need a period of gradual adjustment to responsibilities. If we throw them to the dogs at some arbitrary age, how are we helping them?


"Gradual adjustment to responsibilities" doesn't need to take 15 years. People learn by doing; people learn to make good decisions by making bad ones and learning from their mistakes. I think that young children should be exposed to the world and guided through it, given help to make their own decisions rather than having decisions imposed from above without their input, so that they learn how to make their own good decisions without someone holding their hand.


Adjustment should begin at 13-15 years of age. Younger than that and children don't really have the level of cognitive development to "learn responsibility."

Your idea is stupid.
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:22 am

For a historian he doesn't seem to take much historical context into consideration. There was a quicker transition for two reasons, one was that the family needed the extra labor and income and the other was that there was a much less complex world to learn. We didn't invent adolescence to give people five years to cruise, we needed those extra five years to catch people up with the world around them.

But it's good to see that Gingrich has had a hard on for child labor for a while and isn't just some new crazy he's pulled out of his ass.
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Postby Serrland » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:23 am

New England and The Maritimes wrote:
Quelesh wrote:(I decided to make a new thread about this instead of posting it in the primary megathread, because it's more of a spinoff about one candidate and his views on a particular issue, but if a mod thinks it's more appropriate to merge it with the other thread, feel free to do so.)

Newt Gingrich is sometimes described as a "thinker," a person who has independent, unconventional views but who is too far out of the mainstream to be president. With that in mind, I was wondering what people here think of this article written by Gingrich and published in Business Week in 2008 arguing for the end of the social construct of adolescence.

Newt Gingrich: Let's End Adolescence
Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich says young people need to shift more quickly from childhood to adulthood


It's time to declare the end of adolescence. As a social institution, it's been a failure. The proof is all around us: 19% of eighth graders, 36% of tenth graders, and 47% of twelfth graders say they have used illegal drugs, according to a study by the National Institute on Drug Abuse and the University of Michigan. One of every four girls has a sexually transmitted disease, suggests a recent study for the Centers for Disease Control. A methamphetamine epidemic among the young is destroying lives, families, and communities. And American students are learning at a frighteningly slower rate than Chinese and Indian students.

The solution is dramatic and unavoidable: We have to end adolescence as a social experiment. We tried it. It failed. It's time to move on. Returning to an earlier, more successful model of children rapidly assuming the roles and responsibilities of adults would yield enormous benefit to society.

Prior to the 19th century, it's fair to say that adolescence did not exist. Instead, there was virtually universal acceptance that puberty marked the transition from childhood to young adulthood. Whether with the Bar Mitzvah and Bat Mitzvah ceremony of the Jewish faith or confirmation in the Catholic Church or any hundreds of rites of passage in societies around the planet, it was understood you were either a child or a young adult.

In the U.S., this principle of direct transition from the world of childhood play to the world of adult work was clearly established at the time of the Revolutionary War. Benjamin Franklin was an example of this kind of young adulthood. At age 13, Franklin finished school in Boston, was apprenticed to his brother, a printer and publisher, and moved immediately into adulthood.

John Quincy Adams attended Leiden University in Holland at 13 and at 14 was employed as secretary and interpreter by the American Ambassador to Russia. At 16 he was secretary to the U.S. delegation during the negotiations with Britain that ended the Revolution.

Daniel Boone got his first rifle at 12, was an expert hunter at 13, and at 15 made a yearlong trek through the wilderness to begin his career as America's most famous explorer. The list goes on and on.

It is true that life expectancy was shorter in those days and the need to get on with being an adult could be argued. Nevertheless, early adulthood, early responsibility, and early achievement were the norm before the institution of adolescence emerged as a system for delaying adulthood and trapping young people into wasting years of their lives. To regain those benefits, we must develop accelerated learning systems that peg the rate of academic progress to the student's pace and ability to absorb the material, making education more efficient.

Adolescence was invented in the 19th century to enable middle-class families to keep their children out of sweatshops. But it has degenerated into a process of enforced boredom and age segregation that has produced one of the most destructive social arrangements in human history: consigning 13-year-old males to learning from 15-year-old males.

UNDERMINING COMMUNITIES

The costs of this social experiment have been horrendous. For the poor who most need to make money, learn seriously, and accumulate resources, adolescence has helped crush their future. By trapping poor people in bad schools, with no work opportunities and no culture of responsibility, we have left them in poverty, in gangs, in drugs, and in irresponsible sexual activity. As a result, we have ruined several generations of poor people who might have made it if we had provided a different model of being young.

And for too many middle-class and wealthier young Americans, adolescence has been an excuse to delay work, family, and achievement—and thus contribute less to their own well-being and that of their communities.

It's time to change this—to shift to serious work, learning, and responsibility at age 13 instead of age 30. In other words, replace adolescence with young adulthood. But hastening that transition requires integrating learning into life and work. Fortunately, innovations in technology and in financial incentives to learn offer hope.

The Information Age makes it possible for young people to learn much faster than our current failed bureaucracies and obsolete curriculums permit. New systems such as Curriki, founded by Sun Microsystems (JAVA) and now an independent nonprofit, allow a community of teachers and learners to collaborate via the Internet to create quality educational materials for free—giving every American access to learning 24 hours a day.

And experiments such as the one my daughter, Jackie Cushman, is running in Atlanta—where poor children are paid the equivalent of working in a fast-food restaurant to study and do their homework—are examples of a more dynamic future.

In math and science learning, which are among the most important indicators of future prosperity and strength, America lags far behind such emerging powers as China and India. Studying to compete with Asian counterparts in the world market is going to keep U.S. teens busier than anyone ever imagined. This will require year-round learning, with mentors available online, rather than our traditional bureaucratic model of education. But we must go further, toward a dynamic, real-world blueprint for learning.

Indeed, going to school should be a money-making profession if you are good at it and work hard. That would revolutionize our poorest neighborhoods and boost our competitiveness.

The fact is, most young people want to be challenged and given real responsibility. They want to be treated like young men and women, not old children. So consider this simple proposal: High school students who can graduate a year early get the 12th year's cost of schooling as an automatic scholarship to any college or technical school they want to attend. If they graduate two years early, they get two years of scholarships. At no added cost to taxpayers, we would give students an incentive to study as hard as they can and maximize the speed at which they learn.

Once we decide to engage young people in real life, doing real work, earning real money, and thereby acquiring real responsibility, we can transform being young in America. And our nation will become more competitive in the process.


I don't agree with everything that Gingrich says here, but I think he's basically right about adolescence, and that we should treat teenagers as young men and women, not as old children. I think that adolescence is an unnecessary social construct that does significantly more harm than good. What do you guys think of Gingrich's take here?

No. Newt Gingrich is an idiot who wouldn't know a good idea if it was enacted by the democratic congress during his tenure.

Children need a period of gradual adjustment to responsibilities. If we throw them to the dogs at some arbitrary age, how are we helping them?


I disagree with that. You don't get to be Speaker of the House as an idiot. He has an M.A. and a PhD in Modern European History - while graduate degrees don't ensure intelligence it's hard to get so far as an "idiot." Most of his non-fiction books, too, don't reek of idiocy - just agenda pushing, which is entirely different.

There are a lot of things you can call Newt - crazy, out of touch, off base, etc - but an idiot isn't one of them.

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Postby Cannot think of a name » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:23 am

Hippostania wrote:
New England and The Maritimes wrote:No. Newt Gingrich is an idiot who wouldn't know a good idea if it was enacted by the democratic congress during his tenure.

And the Republican bashing begins in the first post. For once I'd like to see the same passion in bashing Obama and Democrats.

Look for threads authored by Yu-Gi-Owe, then go from there. I'm not sure how you've been missing them.
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Postby New England and The Maritimes » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:26 am

Serrland wrote:
New England and The Maritimes wrote:No. Newt Gingrich is an idiot who wouldn't know a good idea if it was enacted by the democratic congress during his tenure.

Children need a period of gradual adjustment to responsibilities. If we throw them to the dogs at some arbitrary age, how are we helping them?


I disagree with that. You don't get to be Speaker of the House as an idiot. He has an M.A. and a PhD in Modern European History - while graduate degrees don't ensure intelligence it's hard to get so far as an "idiot." Most of his non-fiction books, too, don't reek of idiocy - just agenda pushing, which is entirely different.

There are a lot of things you can call Newt - crazy, out of touch, off base, etc - but an idiot isn't one of them.


He's not intelligent, at the very least. He might be above average, but not by much. People I talk to on the bus can describe reality more accurately than he ever has.

He got to be speaker of the house out of a fluke, and he was so terrible at it that the entire house came together to censure him.
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Wisconsin7
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Postby Wisconsin7 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:29 am

As with pretty much everything Gingrich says, I think he's full of shit.
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Postby Meryuma » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:31 am

I agree with his rhetoric, but I don't trust it. It's about his boner for "work, family and achievement", rather than freedom. His vision isn't teenagers becoming autonomous and making their own life decisions, it's teenagers getting 9-5 jobs and settling down with an upstanding Christian spouse of the opposite sex in a suburban home with 2.5 kids an a "nice" (read: boring and ecologically unsound) lawn.
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Serrland
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Postby Serrland » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:31 am

New England and The Maritimes wrote:
Serrland wrote:
I disagree with that. You don't get to be Speaker of the House as an idiot. He has an M.A. and a PhD in Modern European History - while graduate degrees don't ensure intelligence it's hard to get so far as an "idiot." Most of his non-fiction books, too, don't reek of idiocy - just agenda pushing, which is entirely different.

There are a lot of things you can call Newt - crazy, out of touch, off base, etc - but an idiot isn't one of them.


He's not intelligent, at the very least. He might be above average, but not by much. People I talk to on the bus can describe reality more accurately than he ever has.

He got to be speaker of the house out of a fluke, and he was so terrible at it that the entire house came together to censure him.


A fluke? I see his Contract for America as pretty shrewd politicking. How was it a fluke? It struck the exact nerves that had been rubbed raw by years of HW and the first two of Bill Clinton - effectively drawing on the 1985 State of the Union, like much of the CfA was, hearkening back to the not-so-bygone days at the height of Reagan's popularity, was a pretty brilliant and ultimately extremely successful strategy.

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Postby Ovisterra » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:33 am

Yet again proving he is unfit to be president.
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Postby Ravineworld » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:34 am

I hate Newt Gingrich. With that said, this is the second best idea that any of the GOP candidates have had. Ron Paul and Buddy Roemer had were tied for the best one though: Non-interventionism, and minimal special interest group interference in washington
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Postby Hippostania » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:35 am

Meryuma wrote:teenagers getting 9-5 jobs and settling down with an upstanding Christian spouse of the opposite sex in a suburban home with 2.5 kids an a "nice" (read: boring and ecologically unsound) lawn.

Uhh.. That's not a bad thing, you know?
Last edited by Hippostania on Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Meryuma » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:38 am

Hippostania wrote:
Meryuma wrote:teenagers getting 9-5 jobs and settling down with an upstanding Christian spouse of the opposite sex in a suburban home with 2.5 kids an a "nice" (read: boring and ecologically unsound) lawn.

Uhh.. That's not a bad thing, you know?


It may or may not be a bad thing in practice, but it's an awful thing to hold as an ideal for people as a whole to live up to.
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Postby Pope Joan » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:38 am

He wants child labor so he can screw the unions and make the rich richer.

Typical Republican.
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Postby Ovisterra » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:41 am

Hippostania wrote:
Meryuma wrote:teenagers getting 9-5 jobs and settling down with an upstanding Christian spouse of the opposite sex in a suburban home with 2.5 kids an a "nice" (read: boring and ecologically unsound) lawn.

Uhh.. That's not a bad thing, you know?


It kind of is. Psychologists are always ranting on about how vital the adolescent years are for development and how difficult a time it is for us.

Kinda overly sympathetic if you ask me, but I'm willing to roll with it.
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Postby Hippostania » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:41 am

Meryuma wrote:
Hippostania wrote:Uhh.. That's not a bad thing, you know?


It may or may not be a bad thing in practice, but it's an awful thing to hold as an ideal for people as a whole to live up to.

Why? It's the middle class that boosted the American economy to its number one position after WWII, and it's the middle class that is going to boost us out of it. Encouraging to people to settle down and consume is a good thing in the long run, no matter how ''boring'' it might seem.
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Postby Quelesh » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:11 pm

Hippostania wrote:And the Republican bashing begins in the first post. For once I'd like to see the same passion in bashing Obama and Democrats.

But I don't agree with Gingrich here. Young people are usually irresponsible. While agree that teenagers should be responsible for their own actions (you screw something up, you're responsible for it), I think that they do not deserve the same rights as adults. They're simply just too immature for that.


So teenagers should have the responsibilities of adulthood but not the rights of adulthood? That's a fundamentally unfair double standard. It is said that with rights come responsibilities, but it is also true that with responsibilities come rights. One without the other is unfair.

And while some (but not all) young people are immature, (1) the immaturity of some young people does not justify discriminating against all young people and (2) some young people are immature precisely because they have no rights or responsibilities.

New England and The Maritimes wrote:Adjustment should begin at 13-15 years of age. Younger than that and children don't really have the level of cognitive development to "learn responsibility."


Young children learn how to do things all the time. They also learn how to make competent decisions when allowed to do so.

Cannot think of a name wrote:For a historian he doesn't seem to take much historical context into consideration. There was a quicker transition for two reasons, one was that the family needed the extra labor and income and the other was that there was a much less complex world to learn. We didn't invent adolescence to give people five years to cruise, we needed those extra five years to catch people up with the world around them.

But it's good to see that Gingrich has had a hard on for child labor for a while and isn't just some new crazy he's pulled out of his ass.


Modern child labor laws go way too far. It's one thing to keep young children out of work environments that are exploitative and dangerous, like 14-hour-a-day factory jobs or sweeping soot from chimneys all day. It's another thing entirely to completely prohibit all voluntary work, even completely safe work, even work that also serves to educate, even work for a moderate length of time, for all people younger than an unreasonably high arbitrary age, and to set restrictions on the employment of other people above that age but below a higher arbitrary age that are so onerous that a 17-year-old cannot legally operate the cardboard baler in the back room of a grocery store, even though its operation is trivially simple and it has failsafes built in to prevent it from operating unless the grate is closed.

Meryuma wrote:I agree with his rhetoric, but I don't trust it. It's about his boner for "work, family and achievement", rather than freedom. His vision isn't teenagers becoming autonomous and making their own life decisions, it's teenagers getting 9-5 jobs and settling down with an upstanding Christian spouse of the opposite sex in a suburban home with 2.5 kids an a "nice" (read: boring and ecologically unsound) lawn.


You make a good point here. Like most "family values" conservatives, Gingrich has an obsession with a "traditional" family structure that has never really existed in any meaningful sense, and he wants to use government to push people in that direction. Even though his motives are suspect (and betrayed by some of the language he uses in the article), I agree with his basic point here.

Hippostania wrote:
Meryuma wrote:teenagers getting 9-5 jobs and settling down with an upstanding Christian spouse of the opposite sex in a suburban home with 2.5 kids an a "nice" (read: boring and ecologically unsound) lawn.

Uhh.. That's not a bad thing, you know?


You're potentially right. If that's what someone wants, it can be a good thing for them. But conservatives are under the mistaken impression that it's the only good thing, that it's a good thing for everyone else, not just for themselves (never mind that so many conservatives betray their own absurd "family values" - see Gingrich's adultery).

Pope Joan wrote:He wants child labor so he can screw the unions and make the rich richer.

Typical Republican.


I'm pro-union, but I disagree with them on this one. The unions were actually one of the major forces behind the push for child labor laws in the first place, and they didn't exactly have altruistic motives.

Ovisterra wrote:
Hippostania wrote:Uhh.. That's not a bad thing, you know?


It kind of is. Psychologists are always ranting on about how vital the adolescent years are for development and how difficult a time it is for us.

Kinda overly sympathetic if you ask me, but I'm willing to roll with it.


Adolescence as a psychological phenomenon was invented by the psychologist G. Stanley Hall in the early 20th century. He had his own motives. From wikipedia:

Hall was deeply wedded to the German concept of Volk, an anti-individualist and authoritarian romanticism in which the individual is dissolved into a transcendental collective. Hall believed that humans are by nature non-reasoning and instinct driven, requiring a charismatic leader to manipulate their herd instincts for the well-being of society. He predicted that the American emphasis on individual human right and dignity would lead to a fall that he analogized to the sinking of Atlantis.

Hall was one of the founders of the child study movement. A national network of study groups called Hall Clubs existed to spread his teaching. But what he is most known for today is supervising the 1896 study Of Peculiar and Exceptional Children which described a series of only child oddballs as permanent misfits. For decades, academics and advice columnists alike disseminated his conclusion that an only child could not be expected to go through life with the same capacity for adjustment that siblings possessed. "Being an only child is a disease in itself," he claimed.[6]

Hall argued that child development recapitulates his highly racialized conception of the history of human evolutionary development. He characterized pre-adolescent children as savages and therefore rationalized that reasoning was a waste of time with children. He believed that children must simply be led to fear God, love country and develop a strong body. As the child burns out the vestiges of evil in his nature, he needs a good dose of authoritarian discipline, including corporal punishment.[7] He believed that adolescents were characterized by more altruistic natures and that high schools should indoctrinate students into selfless ideals of service, patriotism, body culture, military discipline, love of authority, awe of nature and devotion to the state and well being of others.[8] Hall consistently argued against intellectual attainment at all levels of public education. Open discussion and critical opinions were not to be tolerated. Students needed indoctrination to save them from the individualism that was so damaging to the progress of American culture.

Hall coined the phrase "storm and stress"[9] with reference to adolescence, taken from the German Sturm und Drang movement. Its three key aspects are conflict with parents, mood disruptions, and risky behavior. As was later the case with the work of Lev Vygotsky and Jean Piaget, public interest in this phrase, as well as with Hall's originating role, faded. Recent research has led to some reconsideration of the phrase and its denotation. In its three aspects, recent evidence supports storm and stress, but only when modified to take into account individual differences and cultural variations. Currently, psychologists do not accept storm and stress as universal, but do acknowledge the possibility in brief passing. Not all adolescents experience storm and stress, but storm and stress is more likely during adolescence than at other ages.

Hall had no sympathy for the poor, the sick or those with developmental differences or disabilities. A firm believer in selective breeding and forced sterilization, Hall believed that any respect or charity toward those he viewed as physically, emotionally, or intellectually weak or "defective" simply interfered with the movement of natural selection toward the development of a super-race.[10]
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Postby Salandriagado » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:12 pm

Has the man not met any teenagers? Like, ever?

The fact is, most young people want to be challenged and given real responsibility. They want to be treated like young men and women, not old children. So consider this simple proposal: High school students who can graduate a year early get the 12th year's cost of schooling as an automatic scholarship to any college or technical school they want to attend. If they graduate two years early, they get two years of scholarships. At no added cost to taxpayers, we would give students an incentive to study as hard as they can and maximize the speed at which they learn.


This bit isn't completely ridiculous, however.
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Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
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Postby Caragonia » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:16 pm

Hippostania wrote:
Meryuma wrote:
It may or may not be a bad thing in practice, but it's an awful thing to hold as an ideal for people as a whole to live up to.

Why? It's the middle class that boosted the American economy to its number one position after WWII, and it's the middle class that is going to boost us out of it. Encouraging to people to settle down and consume is a good thing in the long run, no matter how ''boring'' it might seem.


>.>

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Postby Quelesh » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:18 pm

Salandriagado wrote:Has the man not met any teenagers? Like, ever?


I've met plenty of teenagers who are considerably more responsible and competent than bigoted stereotypes would suggest.
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Postby UEG-America » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:20 pm

Hippostania wrote:
New England and The Maritimes wrote:No. Newt Gingrich is an idiot who wouldn't know a good idea if it was enacted by the democratic congress during his tenure.

And the Republican bashing begins in the first post. For once I'd like to see the same passion in bashing Obama and Democrats.

But I don't agree with Gingrich here. Young people are usually irresponsible. While agree that teenagers should be responsible for their own actions (you screw something up, you're responsible for it), I think that they do not deserve the same rights as adults. They're simply just too immature for that.

Maybe because the Republicans have showed numerous failures and blamed Obama when Congress can't even compromise anything to get stuff done.

Anyways we need to end it, there is nothing cool about drugs and alcohol, it is a damn shame really.
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Postby Ovisterra » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:21 pm

Quelesh wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:Has the man not met any teenagers? Like, ever?


I've met plenty of teenagers who are considerably more responsible and competent than bigoted stereotypes would suggest.


Yer lookin' at one.

Well, I'm a teenager. Whether I'm responsible is up for debate, but many adults think so.
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