Income Taxes: Are They Theft?

[Salvarity]

Funny, the net value of the world economy seems to be doing just fine despite every major nation using a fiat currency. Doesn't seem to have failed at all.

Do you not understand what "store of value" means? Your money decreases in value. That's not storing it.

I ask you this. What does not decrease or increase in value over time.
Supply and Demand will always be in effect.

[Yootwopia]

Money could be metal, like coins. Or it could be anything. It could be electronic. But it must meet the criteria above. Fiat money fails the 3rd function?

Right...

See the thing is, right, the thing is. You aren't right. What about currencies that are no longer accepted after states fall apart/come together/just change currency?

Because I have some D-marks kinda lying around, and that was a Top Currency. Now it isn't.

[Sibirsky]

I showed that the 1990 formula shows 6%+ inflation. I addressed how they lower the rate as well.

I posted that before I saw your chart because I accidentally skipped a few posts using the "unread posts" feature. I still have yet to see anything resembling an addressal of rate lowering methods.

For like the 5th time...

Hedonics, geometric weighting, and substitution. The BLS admits that they do this, although they do not release the official formula.

[Wikkiwallana]

Funny, the net value of the world economy seems to be doing just fine despite every major nation using a fiat currency. Doesn't seem to have failed at all.

Do you not understand what "store of value" means? Your money decreases in value. That's not storing it.

If I have 5 X and they are worth 3 Y each, then I get 3 more X, but as a consequence an X is now worth only 2 Y, I haven't lost anything, I've gained.

[Sibirsky]

Do you?

Yes, a lower rate of inflation does 2 things. First, COLA is lower, saving the government money. 2nd, it makes GDP growth look better, so consumers and investors are more confident. Spending more, and investing more.

Damn the retirees living on fixed incomes.

COLA only includes variables that are definately inflation. Many other factors could cause rises in fuel prices, rises in cost of living, etc.

That's why they changed it. The old formula created excessive panic in the financial sector.

Right. And the fact that it lowered government expenses had nothing to do with it!

[Wikkiwallana]

I posted that before I saw your chart because I accidentally skipped a few posts using the "unread posts" feature. I still have yet to see anything resembling an addressal of rate lowering methods.

For like the 5th time...

Hedonics, geometric weighting, and substitution. The BLS admits that they do this, although they do not release the official formula.

Then for the 4th time what are hedonics, geometric weighting, and substitution, and why are they bad. Seriously you're just waving them about as boogeymen at this point.

[Wikkiwallana]

And that is a bad thing how?

It steals from retirees, the poor, people on fixed incomes, veterans, etc.

I said it right there, in the 2nd sentence. Why do you hate the poor?

And deflation steals from anyone with a savings account.

[Hydesland]

What makes the 1990 Formula the true formula and the current formula the false one?

I never said the 1990s formula is the true formula, just that it is closer to reality.

Being more convenient politically =/= closer to reality. Inflation is complicated, because in the real world things are ALWAYS CHANGING. Perhaps a high range intel processor back in 1990 costed $400, and now a high range processor costs $700, however the processor today is several hundred thousand times more efficient. So what is the inflation rate for this product? 75%? Or is it -500,000% when taking into account efficiency gain? All inflation measures are samples, why on earth would the sample used in the 1990 measure (which inherently MUST be weighted to some products more and other products less) be any better than the modern sample?

Furthermore, reality actually shows that modern CPI is perfectly close to reality, because you can easily compare it to independent statistical price indexes, like billion price index which uses no 'hedonics'.

[Mad Monarch]

For like the 5th time...

Hedonics, geometric weighting, and substitution. The BLS admits that they do this, although they do not release the official formula.

Then for the 4th time what are hedonics, geometric weighting, and substitution, and why are they bad. Seriously you're just waving them about as boogeymen at this point.

Hedonics-the branch of psychology that deals with pleasurable and unpleasurable states of consciousness.
geometric weighting- doesn't exist in any online dictionary
substitution- Do I even have to define this?

He is throwing around big words that are in no way connected in an effort to make a point.

My response: 911, terrorism, intercourse, INTERCOURSE!

[Sibirsky]

Sure. We already have private hospitals. And to a limited extent roads, fire stations, police and utilities.

Ya, several states have "pay for your fire department" taxes. Here is what happens if you don't pay and your house catches fire:

They show up, don't enter the property, don't let you near the property, and watch it burn while keeping your neighbors safe (if they payed). This actually isn't fear mongering, it actually does happen in states that have this fun little idea. How do you expect private business would be any better in that regard?

And? Your point is? Those are city run departments. You know, the fucks that write the laws.

[Salvarity]

And that is a bad thing how?

It steals from retirees, the poor, people on fixed incomes, veterans, etc.

I said it right there, in the 2nd sentence. Why do you hate the poor?

Also retirees don't they get social services which are returns on there taxes. The poor gets IRS returns. Fixed Income people so? Veterans they can get a job.

[Sibirsky]

Sure. We already have private hospitals. And to a limited extent roads, fire stations, police and utilities.

I'll give you private hospitals and private roads but

-Fire Fighter. Your in one of your most economic lows when your house just got set on fire. Having to Pay for a fire fighter is going to be economically draining on the victim

-Police. Well your a Libertarian. In a perfect Libertarian world how long until Private Law Enforcement become Private Offense.

-Utilities. I'll give you this also.

Insurance, for fire protection.

The police portion is confusing.

[Mad Monarch]

Ya, several states have "pay for your fire department" taxes. Here is what happens if you don't pay and your house catches fire:

They show up, don't enter the property, don't let you near the property, and watch it burn while keeping your neighbors safe (if they payed). This actually isn't fear mongering, it actually does happen in states that have this fun little idea. How do you expect private business would be any better in that regard?

And? Your point is? Those are city run departments. You know, the fucks that write the laws.

Thank you for saying that.

You hear that guys, he just admitted taxes are good. We can pack up and go home now.

[Salvarity]

What makes the 1990 Formula the true formula and the current formula the false one?

I never said the 1990s formula is the true formula, just that it is closer to reality.

Less hedonics, substitution and geometric weighting. All these are verifiable. While the BLS does not release the exact formula, they admit that they engage is such practices.

Which Reality. I'm sorry but i'm not comprehending what this post is supposed to mean.

[Yootwopia]

geometric weighting- doesn't exist in any online dictionary

It's the element that transforms a Classical Heist into a Fat Chalet.

[United Dependencies]

And? Your point is? Those are city run departments. You know, the fucks that write the laws.

Thank you for saying that.

You hear that guys, he just admitted taxes are good. We can pack up and go home now.

He's a libertarian not an an-cap.

[Sibirsky]

I'll give you private hospitals and private roads but

-Fire Fighter. Your in one of your most economic lows when your house just got set on fire. Having to Pay for a fire fighter is going to be economically draining on the victim

-Police. Well your a Libertarian. In a perfect Libertarian world how long until Private Law Enforcement become Private Offense.

-Utilities. I'll give you this also.

Don't give him privatized hospitals, actually. not until he finds a viable answer to the blaring hole in his logic should all hospitals become privatized. Don't even give him roads until he plugs the obvious hole in that that I pointed out should roads become fully privatized.

You haven't pointed out shit.

[Wikkiwallana]

I never said the 1990s formula is the true formula, just that it is closer to reality.

Less hedonics, substitution and geometric weighting. All these are verifiable. While the BLS does not release the exact formula, they admit that they engage is such practices.

Which Reality. I'm sorry but i'm not comprehending what this post is supposed to mean.

Austrian School reality. It's an entire school of economics devoted to "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

[Mad Monarch]

**

What part of "they can't legally deny you care" which you fucking quoted, do you not understand?

the part where, if there are no taxes, they have no viable to give you care. Medial supplies don't come out of thin air, they cost money. Money the hospital won't have if they don't deny you coverage in a government without taxes.

Now that I painted the obvious in bright red letters, maybe you will notice.

Now do you remember how you ran away from our little debate? I'll be back with the road debate shortly

[Sibirsky]

I'll give you private hospitals and private roads but

-Fire Fighter. Your in one of your most economic lows when your house just got set on fire. Having to Pay for a fire fighter is going to be economically draining on the victim

-Police. Well your a Libertarian. In a perfect Libertarian world how long until Private Law Enforcement become Private Offense.

-Utilities. I'll give you this also.

That's not how it works for privatized police and fire departments. Local areas that are too small to maintain a professional police force or firefighters can contract private groups to supplement volunteer services.

Privatizing utilities is a bad idea, though. Enron. 'Nuff said.

Enron was an accounting scandal. It has nothing to do with utilities.

[Mad Monarch]

here is the road debate:

Sadly a closed system would work. They would have a very captive consumer base. They could, realistically, charge as high as they want do to that one factor.

Well, many other monopolies have been shown to deteriorate if just given time, but you very well may be right. However, just because the entire road system can't be privatized doesn't mean that the private sector can't be a part of the roads.

Another debate you guys conveniently avoided.

[Puissancevise]

pritivitze the roads

And while your at it, just empty our pockets into whatever company decides to toll the roads outrageous amounts. Id love to have to pay some rich guy just to drive on the highway. He needs a new car, or a boat.

...now for the topic:
If there was no income tax, there would be no schools, no postal service, no highway upkeep, no police force, no courts, no law, no military, and no...any other public service. Now i don't know about you, but i kinda like having that stuff around. There is a reason there is income tax. Every time you use some sort of public service, it is being paid for by taxes. Most of which come from income tax. Not to mention all of the jobs that would be lost by suddenly losing all of the above. So if you want to live in a country that has no military, police force, schools, or courts, has a 30% unemployment rate, and is run by rich corporations that will fuck you just to make an extra million dollars for pocket money, feel free to remove income tax. Just lemme know so i can leave first.

[Distruzio]

Property is theft.

Who did I rob?

[Distruzio]

Theft by Definition: The act of stealing property.
So, income taxes, are when the government forces you to give up your property. How is that not stealing property?
I believe that taxes are an act of theft. I believe that since theft is illegal, then taxes are illegal.
So, NSG, what do you think about income taxes? Illegal, legal, good, bad?

All taxes are theft.

[Death Metal]

Which Reality. I'm sorry but i'm not comprehending what this post is supposed to mean.

Austrian School reality. It's an entire school of economics devoted to "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

Made "legitimate" by giving Nobel Prizes to people who agree with it. Truly a Monty Burns Award For Excellence In The Field Of Excellence.