Income Taxes: Are They Theft?

[Forsher]

I actually know a little about the CPI. (Well, more than your average person, which is one of the limtations of it.) It is useless if it does not reflect changes in household spending. And don't for FEPI, CGI and PPI.

[Wikkiwallana]

Property is theft.

Even Marx thought Proudhon was stupid here.

And even the poster said he wasn't serious but making a facetious reply to point out how absurd such acts of assertion are.

[Wikkiwallana]

Um, what? I'm talking about indefinite detention and the right to assassinate citizens without giving them any chance to defend themselves in a court of law.

You know, shit that could affect everyone.

Again, are allowed by the Constitution.

Article I, Section 9, Clause 2:

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

US Citizens planning terrorist attacks on the US can be considered rebellion and a danger to public safety.


Also has precedence, see Lincoln.

Oh fuck, please don't bring Lincoln into this, I don't have my bile resistant clothing on.

[Jinos]

Why would you "Sign" anything?

Did you have to go to the DMV to "get your full citizenship"? You don't even need to register to vote or anything. It just happens, one day you're 18, you don't even need to blow the candles out on a damn cake.

It's not about giving consent. Consent is assumed until otherwise made apparent. If you DON'T want to give consent, go to another country, become a citizen of that country, and renounce citizenship of this country.

Oh okay. When you're 57, I will have a pool put into your backyard; you will have to pay the bill, but you don't have to use the pool; if you don't like it, you can move.

Uh, what's the deal with the arbitrary 57?

Also, this is a silly simplification of the real issue, also not indicative anyways.

Citizenship happens specifically at 18 because that's when its thought people are capable of accepting the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.

You pay taxes for services previously rendered which you are currently using.

In anycase, a more accurate depiction is that your neighborhood is fixing the road in front of your house and collects a fee from you because you benefit from its construction.

[Conserative Morality]

What do you mean it's worth? It's worth measured how?

We can measure it in anything. Like other fiat currencies. Or commodities. I don't understand the question.

Well, that's part of my question. How exactly are you measuring worth? You said before:

You need a definition of money?

1. A medium of exchange.
2. A unit of account.
3. A store of value.

Fiat currency fails the 3rd function.

How does it fail as #3?

[Genivaria]

Wrong, because the government has legal right. Theft is doing so without legal right. Case closed.

When did I grant that right?

The same time you signed away your soul to Satan.
Big Jim P will be coming to collect soon.

[Sibirsky]

How? How will you avoid defaults if you do not increase the money supply?

Private or public? Private: if all debts are profitable, an increase in M would correspond to an increase in Y, not P, so prices would remain stable. Public: by not running deficits.

How do you avoid defaults in a gold standard?

Increase the money supply. It has historically increased at a 1-2% pace on average.

[Sibirsky]

Are you right about anything?

Unlike you? Yes.

Yes. I won all those awards by being wrong.

[Patriqvinia]

You've got a series of loosely connected premises that in no way justify the previous circular argument. Nevermind the fact that "well-ordered" societies have existed in the past without taxes:

Looesely connected? Hardly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_Commonwealth

So instead of leaders being elected, you would have the leader be the person who can buy that position. This is somehow better than the current system? Furthermore this system did no prevent the buyout of all defense and subsequent creation of a state monopoly on it.

http://badquaker.com/archives/554

I'm sorry but Rothbard is an economist not a historian. I hardly trust anything he has to say on the matter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anarchist_communities

Ah yes the anarchist commune. They are small and filled with like minded individuals. Hardly in need of any real government.

You need to justify the circular argument, which can't be done, it's totally illogical.

http://mises.org/journals/jls/1_2/1_2_1.pdf
http://www.europabarbarorum.com/faction ... story.html

Actually leaders are already bought in the current system. As to other things the Iceland system didn't prevent; well, that's what we have history for, to learn from it.

[Jinos]

Unlike you? Yes.

Yes. I won all those awards by being wrong.

Woooow, you won some internet awards?

You going to put those on your resume?

[Yootwopia]

Unlike you? Yes.

Yes. I won all those awards by being wrong.

I think "despite" is more accurate.

[Patriqvinia]

Oh okay. When you're 57, I will have a pool put into your backyard; you will have to pay the bill, but you don't have to use the pool; if you don't like it, you can move.

Uh, what's the deal with the arbitrary 57?

Also, this is a silly simplification of the real issue, also not indicative anyways.

Citizenship happens specifically at 18 because that's when its thought people are capable of accepting the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.

You pay taxes for services previously rendered which you are currently using.

In anycase, a more accurate depiction is that your neighborhood is fixing the road in front of your house and collects a fee from you because you benefit from its construction.

You benefit from the construction of the pool, yes?
Presupposition of benefit does not justify collection of payment.

[Sibirsky]

I didn't say "without" value by design. I said "declining" value. Which is mostly correct.

Still not really tackling the core issue here, which is that you've thought a bit about this but not very much.

Enough. We have a debt based monetary system. Which means out money is declining in value.

[Sibirsky]

But she will. Because CPI is lower than actual inflation.

Right in your 1990 system which hails from Bizarro World, where people never change what they buy according to market pressures, yeah?

The 1990 system hails from 1990 US.

If that's bizarro world, so be it.

[Sibirsky]

No, they did not.

I'm sorry, are you arguing that a bill called Authorization for Use of Military Force was not a declaration of war? Because that's what it sounds like, and I just want to make sure before I start laughing like a hyena.

Who was war declared on?

[Sibirsky]

Can you find a full text of the law that proves otherwise?

Until then, PolitiFact has this:

What the rule says

The newly final rule stems from the Affordable Care Act of 2010 — what Republican presidential candidates call "Obamacare." It affects the health plans employers offer their employees. Among its requirements is that most plans include birth control coverage without out-of-pocket costs. But it’s part of a broader push to provide preventive care without extra fees.

That's it. It's a health plan law.

Hell, if you want to play the imposing values card, a religious employer refusing to provide these to an employee on religious grounds is imposing values on the employee. How is that okay, but this isn't?

We're not talking about the healthcare bill.

[Death Metal]

Unlike you? Yes.

Yes. I won all those awards by being wrong.

That is exactly what I am saying.

[Death Metal]

I'm sorry, are you arguing that a bill called Authorization for Use of Military Force was not a declaration of war? Because that's what it sounds like, and I just want to make sure before I start laughing like a hyena.

Who was war declared on?

All persons, nations, and organizations the Administrative Branch believes had a role in 9/11, as written in the bill.

[Vurtunia]

Yes. I won all those awards by being wrong.

That is exactly what I am saying.

Someone needs to read sarcasm 101 :/

[Jinos]

Uh, what's the deal with the arbitrary 57?

Also, this is a silly simplification of the real issue, also not indicative anyways.

Citizenship happens specifically at 18 because that's when its thought people are capable of accepting the rights and responsibilities of citizenship.

You pay taxes for services previously rendered which you are currently using.

In anycase, a more accurate depiction is that your neighborhood is fixing the road in front of your house and collects a fee from you because you benefit from its construction.

You benefit from the construction of the pool, yes?
Presupposition of benefit does not justify collection of payment.

But its still not an apt comparison, because there is the option to use the pool (which is private, not public, I'll also add). The road will be used regardless of "choice" You will walk on it and drive on it, others will drive on it to facilitate communication to you.

It's not about "Oh you would benefit from a pool, I'll put one there you have to pay me". It's about, we live in a society where we expect the community provides for the individual, and the individual must in turn provide for the community.

We live in society that fundamentally EMBRACES that concept.

If you don't want to embrace that concept, you reject the society.

So if you reject that society you must leave, for staying signifies accepting that society (and its fundamental concepts). You can say "I reject this taxation bullshit, it's theft" but your actions signify "I accept your support, here are my taxes". And actions always speak louder than words.

[Forsher]

I propose a new tax. Every time someone says somethjing the government says is incorrect they pay us one internet.

[Sibirsky]

Um, what? I'm talking about indefinite detention and the right to assassinate citizens without giving them any chance to defend themselves in a court of law.

You know, shit that could affect everyone.

Again, are allowed by the Constitution.

Article I, Section 9, Clause 2:

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

US Citizens planning terrorist attacks on the US can be considered rebellion and a danger to public safety.


Also has precedence, see Lincoln.

EDIT- Wrong tags. Also, I condemn Paul for doing this not because of the Constitutionality, but because of the hypocrisy of doing this then saying he wouldn't as part of a bid for office.

Which is why the language describing Americans supposedly planning such attacks is so fucking vague that almost anyone can fit it.

Your ambition to give up freedom is noteworthy.

[Death Metal]

We're not talking about the healthcare bill.

Then you failed to properly elaborate.

Bill of Rights has no effect on main body Article 1 Section 9 Clause 2.

[Sibirsky]

What do you mean it's worth? It's worth measured how?

We can measure it in anything. Like other fiat currencies. Or commodities. I don't understand the question.

Well, that's part of my question. How exactly are you measuring worth? You said before:

You need a definition of money?

1. A medium of exchange.
2. A unit of account.
3. A store of value.

Fiat currency fails the 3rd function.

How does it fail as #3?

It declines in value.

[Jinos]

Still not really tackling the core issue here, which is that you've thought a bit about this but not very much.

Enough. We have a debt based monetary system. Which means out money is declining in value.

Just because our currency declines in value doesn't mean we aren't richer.

Well, that's part of my question. How exactly are you measuring worth? You said before:


How does it fail as #3?

It declines in value.

Uhh, hate to break it to you, but so does gold. In fact, so does everything, at some point or another. (Eventually, after reaching its trade peak, it will start to decline in value).