Respecting Religion

[Threlizdun]

I do not hate you, I simply find it depressing that one could advocate outlawing any belief system. I personally most religions to be fundamentally ridiculous and mostly have anegative impact on society, but no one has any right to tell another what they can or cannot believe. Even if one did, why single out those three?

Three? Hehe.
psst it was one.

You cited Christianity, Judaism, and Scientolgy amongst those your despise the most (Closer look reveals Islam is also cited).

[Wellboneland]

Three? Hehe.
psst it was one.

You cited Christianity, Judaism, and Scientolgy amongst those your despise the most (Closer look reveals Islam is also cited).

Oh, that one. Sure I hate everything.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

Then they are marginally less silly than you.

I frankly don't give a damn If I am silly. Im used to hearing that.

It's not you. I find all converts to be amusing.

[Wellboneland]

I frankly don't give a damn If I am silly. Im used to hearing that.

It's not you. I find all converts to be amusing.

I do, to a point. You are atheist, right?

[The Realm of God]

I frankly don't give a damn If I am silly. Im used to hearing that.

It's not you. I find all converts to be amusing.

Since I converted from Atheism to Christianity and now want to train as a priest I bet you find me absolutely bloody hilarious

[Wellboneland]

It's not you. I find all converts to be amusing.

Since I converted from Atheism to Christianity and now want to train as a priest I bet you find me absolutely bloody hilarious

Phpphaaahahah no.

[Norvenia]

There have been many cultures, even in so-called modern times, who have practiced the passive method of "exposure" to deal with the severely handicapped and, in some cultures, unwanted female children. Other cultures have, literally or figuratively, "allowed" their elderly who were unable to contribute to the tribe to choose to set themselves afloat on an ice floe - I find these solutions more humane and, arguably, moral than our current practice of warehousing them until they die of neglect (except, of course, in the case of "unwanted" female children - in fact, healthy females are more necessary to the survival of the species than healthy males). Whether it is actually moral or not is in an ethical gray area and appeals to a deity are not the best way to deal with the question - this is where we have ask hard questions and deal with hard answers and not just use some sort of "it's the will of God" cop out.

All right. First off, let me get something out of the way. I am not a fundamentalist. I do not believe that you are going to burn in hell. In all my prior posts in this thread, I have never once suggested "it's the will of God" as the explanation for anything. And so I would appreciate it if you would cease to anticipate my reactions - as you have been doing for several posts now - and simply participate in a reasoned debate in which we ask each other questions and answer them fully and respectfully. If you can't do that, then I have no interest in pursuing this discussion further.

Now: to your comment. You describe the practice of euthanizing the severely handicapped as "an ethical gray area." But from the perspective of the survival of the species, it is quite clear-cut: killing those who represent a nearly 100% net drain on society's resources helps the species survive. It is that simple. If this is a clear-cut matter regarding the survival of the species, and if the survival of the species is the basis for morality, then how can this be a moral gray area when it is a clear-cut issue of species survival? For this statement to be true, there must be some other element included in moral calculations beyond what is logically, factually best for the human species as a whole.

[Polyamorous Platypus]

It's not you. I find all converts to be amusing.

Since I converted from Atheism to Christianity and now want to train as a priest I bet you find me absolutely bloody hilarious

You're certainly odd. I don't think I've heard of many Atheists converting to Christianity.

[Wellboneland]

Since I converted from Atheism to Christianity and now want to train as a priest I bet you find me absolutely bloody hilarious

You're certainly odd. I don't think I've heard of many Atheists converting to Christianity.

I converted from Satanism to Neo-paganism because I felt like it.

[Simon Cowell of the RR]

I respect all opinions, until the person has demonstrated that their feelings are, to beat around the bush, idiotic.

[The Murtunian Tribes]

It's not you. I find all converts to be amusing.

Since I converted from Atheism to Christianity and now want to train as a priest I bet you find me absolutely bloody hilarious

Actually not as much. I just find the concept of switching beliefs to be funny. Switching from no-belief to belief or vice-versa is a little more... sensible, for lack of a better word.

[The Realm of God]

Since I converted from Atheism to Christianity and now want to train as a priest I bet you find me absolutely bloody hilarious

You're certainly odd. I don't think I've heard of many Atheists converting to Christianity.

Long Story Bro, I was brought up being told there was no God and several events happened which changed my world view,

[The Murtunian Tribes]

You're certainly odd. I don't think I've heard of many Atheists converting to Christianity.

I converted from Satanism to Neo-paganism because I felt like it.

See? Like that. That's just incomprehensible to me.

[Polyamorous Platypus]

You're certainly odd. I don't think I've heard of many Atheists converting to Christianity.

Long Story Bro, I was brought up being told there was no God and several events happened which changed my world view,

Fair enough. I just do think you're an extraordinary case because in my experience, I have never met an Atheist that converts to Christianity. It's certainly interesting.

[Wellboneland]

You're certainly odd. I don't think I've heard of many Atheists converting to Christianity.

Long Story Bro, I was brought up being told there was no God and several events happened which changed my world view,

I was raised Dutch Protestant.

[Ertae]

Well the thing is that for the most part they are completely rational people, except in regards to religion.

Nazis are completely rational people, except in regards to those different than themselves. This excuses nothing.

For a non-Nazi post, this may be a record-time break of Godwin's law.

Nazism =/= general religion. Unless some bigot is using it to justify berating people, a belief system shouldn't be outright disrespected.

[Terraius]

It's not you. I find all converts to be amusing.

Since I converted from Atheism to Christianity and now want to train as a priest I bet you find me absolutely bloody hilarious

Slightly off topic,

If you are aspiring to become an Orthodox priest then I offer a few conciliatory remarks:

A) Ive noticed your pro-gay marriage, pro-abortion and other left-leaning views. These are incompatible with the apostleship magisterium of the Byzantine Patriarch and the wider Orthodox church as well.

B) You do indeed need to take the Old Testament seriously as alot of the history, theology, and stories directly link to the New Testament and are highly revered moreso in Orthodox Tradition then any other mainline Christian Tradition.

I only say these things from experience as I too have thought about priesthood, albeit I am Byzantine Catholic, on a theological level its really the same shit as Orthodoxy. You should contact a local priest or vocation director and speak to them about these things as you learn you are not being called to become a priest if you lection beliefs or theology counter to their teachings.

This is, of course if you are talking about Eastern Orthodoxy under the autocephalous synod under the Ecumenical Byzantine Patriarch and not some psuedo-Orthodox fringe church.


EDIT: Note; not that I disagree or agree with any of your statements or beliefs, Im merely offering some advice and tips on what to expect and ponder on.

[Ertae]

Often times I hear from people that if someone holds a belief, then you have to respect it. But why?
Why must I respect a belief for no other reason then because someone holds that belief?
Shouldn't a belief be respected based on its truthfulness and morality?

Note that I think there is a BIG difference between not showing respect towards a belief, and not showing respect towards the person who holds said belief.
There is an unfortunate habit among the religious of identifying their religion with themselves, so that if someone questions or criticizes their belief, they take it as a personal insult.
Anyways. NS, do you believe that people's religion, beliefs, or opinion should be respected just because someone holds that belief?

A belief that is truly directly harmless should be respected. This ties in with my philosophy on respect in general. Respect all until there is legitimate reason not to. If someone uses their belief system to even attempt to harm or suppress others, that belief system, as it pertains to them and those just like them, can and should be disrespected.

People just need to not be radical.

Like that would ever happen..

[Sociobiology]

We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
H. L. Mencken

[Norvenia]

Since I converted from Atheism to Christianity and now want to train as a priest I bet you find me absolutely bloody hilarious

Slightly off topic,

If you are aspiring to become an Orthodox priest then I offer a few conciliatory remarks:

A) Ive noticed your pro-gay marriage, pro-abortion and other left-leaning views. These are incompatible with the apostleship magisterium of the Byzantine Patriarch and the wider Orthodox church as well.

B) You do indeed need to take the Old Testament seriously as alot of the history, theology, and stories directly link to the New Testament and are highly revered moreso in Orthodox Tradition then any other mainline Christian Tradition.

I only say these things from experience as I too have thought about priesthood, albeit I am Byzantine Catholic, on a theological level its really the same shit as Orthodoxy. You should contact a local priest or vocation director and speak to them about these things as you learn you are not being called to become a priest if you lection beliefs or theology counter to their teachings.

This is, of course if you are talking about Eastern Orthodoxy under the autocephalous synod under the Ecumenical Byzantine Patriarch and not some psuedo-Orthodox fringe church.


EDIT: Note; not that I disagree or agree with any of your statements or beliefs, Im merely offering some advice and tips on what to expect and ponder on.

Yet another reason why I'm an Episcopalian: our official doctrinal positions are listed in the Book of Common Prayer under "Documents of Historical Interest." I know Buddhist-Episcopalians and Muslim-Episcopalians. I consider myself a Jew as well as an Episcopalian; my mother's family is Jewish and I embrace that aspect of my heritage. Episcopalians have espoused every heresy from Arianism to Manichaeism. We're a theologically eclectic bunch, to say the least. But we all come together in the same church, and sing the same hymns, and pray before the same alter. And so we are a community of faith, united by worship rather than dogma. There can be no litmus tests in the Episopal Church.

[Forsher]

Often times I hear from people that if someone holds a belief, then you have to respect it. But why?
Why must I respect a belief for no other reason then because someone holds that belief?
Shouldn't a belief be respected based on its truthfulness and morality?

Note that I think there is a BIG difference between not showing respect towards a belief, and not showing respect towards the person who holds said belief.
There is an unfortunate habit among the religious of identifying their religion with themselves, so that if someone questions or criticizes their belief, they take it as a personal insult.
Anyways. NS, do you believe that people's religion, beliefs, or opinion should be respected just because someone holds that belief?

Replace respect with tolerate.

[The Realm of God]

Since I converted from Atheism to Christianity and now want to train as a priest I bet you find me absolutely bloody hilarious

Slightly off topic,

If you are aspiring to become an Orthodox priest then I offer a few conciliatory remarks:

A) Ive noticed your pro-gay marriage, pro-abortion and other left-leaning views. These are incompatible with the apostleship magisterium of the Byzantine Patriarch and the wider Orthodox church as well.

B) You do indeed need to take the Old Testament seriously as alot of the history, theology, and stories directly link to the New Testament and are highly revered moreso in Orthodox Tradition then any other mainline Christian Tradition.

I only say these things from experience as I too have thought about priesthood, albeit I am Byzantine Catholic, on a theological level its really the same shit as Orthodoxy. You should contact a local priest or vocation director and speak to them about these things as you learn you are not being called to become a priest if you lection beliefs or theology counter to their teachings.

This is, of course if you are talking about Eastern Orthodoxy under the autocephalous synod under the Ecumenical Byzantine Patriarch and not some psuedo-Orthodox fringe church.


EDIT: Note; not that I disagree or agree with any of your statements or beliefs, Im merely offering some advice and tips on what to expect and ponder on.

Ok me being pro the things in my sig means that I support people being able to do it in a secular society not through the church. In short they do not agree with my religious beliefs but I agree that my beliefs should not influence politics and laws, make sense. On the Old Testament I agree that the teachings are sound and the miracles certainly possible but the Jewish law has been overturned when Jesus died on the cross meaning that we do not have to stone people.

In short I keep my religious beliefs and own political views separate from what I think people should be able to do. I had a long TG conversation yesterday on this with somebody else, but thank you for voicing your concerns.

[Terraius]

Yet another reason why I'm an Episcopalian: our official doctrinal positions are listed in the Book of Common Prayer under "Documents of Historical Interest." I know Buddhist-Episcopalians and Muslim-Episcopalians. I consider myself a Jew as well as an Episcopalian; my mother's family is Jewish and I embrace that aspect of my heritage. Episcopalians have espoused every heresy from Arianism to Manichaeism. We're a theologically eclectic bunch, to say the least. But we all come together in the same church, and sing the same hymns, and pray before the same alter. And so we are a community of faith, united by worship rather than dogma. There can be no litmus tests in the Episopal Church.

The Episcopalian church did not exist before the United States was a nation, and its mother-church the Anglicans did not exist until the reign of King Henry the 8th, some thousand years after the Arian and Manichaeian heresies.

[Occupied Deutschland]

We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.
H. L. Mencken

While I agree with the above, I do want to add one caveat
"Just don't be a holier-than-thou ass while you're at it."
Note that this applies to both people with/without a religious belief.

[Terraius]

Slightly off topic,

If you are aspiring to become an Orthodox priest then I offer a few conciliatory remarks:

A) Ive noticed your pro-gay marriage, pro-abortion and other left-leaning views. These are incompatible with the apostleship magisterium of the Byzantine Patriarch and the wider Orthodox church as well.

B) You do indeed need to take the Old Testament seriously as alot of the history, theology, and stories directly link to the New Testament and are highly revered moreso in Orthodox Tradition then any other mainline Christian Tradition.

I only say these things from experience as I too have thought about priesthood, albeit I am Byzantine Catholic, on a theological level its really the same shit as Orthodoxy. You should contact a local priest or vocation director and speak to them about these things as you learn you are not being called to become a priest if you lection beliefs or theology counter to their teachings.

This is, of course if you are talking about Eastern Orthodoxy under the autocephalous synod under the Ecumenical Byzantine Patriarch and not some psuedo-Orthodox fringe church.


EDIT: Note; not that I disagree or agree with any of your statements or beliefs, Im merely offering some advice and tips on what to expect and ponder on.

Ok me being pro the things in my sig means that I support people being able to do it in a secular society not through the church. In short they do not agree with my religious beliefs but I agree that my beliefs should not influence politics and laws, make sense. On the Old Testament I agree that the teachings are sound and the miracles certainly possible but the Jewish law has been overturned when Jesus died on the cross meaning that we do not have to stone people.

In short I keep my religious beliefs and own political views separate from what I think people should be able to do. I had a long TG conversation yesterday on this with somebody else, but thank you for voicing your concerns.

I understand your beliefs, but you must realize the Orthodox (And Catholic for that matter) Church sees things very differently, and by their very existence are political as they were born out of political matters (3rd century AD to around the 9th century AD you see the Church become both a religious and political body after the Edict of Milan by Saint-Emperor Constantine.); so while you may believe that secular and religious marriages are separate, the church does not agree. Once again I do not agree nor disagree, I merely am trying to rectify this for you.

Per Orthodox and Catholic teaching, Jewish law was not overturned. In lamen terms they teach it was in a way aggregated or modified, but both churches maintain that the law is still very much in place. Case in point: The Ten Commandmants, which even your most anti-OT Protestant Evangelicals call back on, which are Commandmants from the Torah.

Also, Jesus if I recall did not command people not to be stoned, I dont remember that teaching or story anywhere. He did teach to have mercy and love which would remove the need for stoning in most situations I suppose but he never spoke against it. If you are referring to Jesus saving the woman from being stoned who was accused of Adultery, historical church teaching falls back on the following:

A) She was accused of adultery but no proof was submitted,
B) Jewish culture was biased towards men and was often very hypocritical in that they would put women to death for adultery but not men who committed the same act, when Jewish law does not discriminate between the sexes and requires both male and female to be executed if either are caught in adulterous affairs.

And it was for these reasons Jesus was outraged and rebuked the crowd. Remember that Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not abolish it, and he commanded many people and his followers to act 'According to the laws of Moses' in many a situation.

However, for a Greek (Gentile as we put it into modern context) the Jewish law does not apply to you, as the first Church council agreed that only a few key laws (Many of them Noahide/pre-Moses commandmants) were to be upheld by Greeks/Gentiles as opposed to the entire 613 laws of Moses.