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Germany Invades France

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Offenheim
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Germany Invades France

Postby Offenheim » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:31 am

Forgive the sensationalistic topic title. Anyhow, the general thing is that, as everyone who's been following the Eurozone Crisis (I think it's fair to call it that) knows, Angela Merkel of Germany and Nicholas Sarkozy of France have been the best of friends during this whole thing. There have been discussions that essentially what Germany couldn't do with two World Wars it's doing with banking, though I think that's a bit overblown. Now though, Angela Merkel is intervening in French politics.

Sarkozy faces an election this year (voting in April and May), and opinion polls have consistently shown that he'll go down in defeat, as the majority of the French seem to want someone else. Given that he essentially has two months to turn this around, Merkel has made it clear that her choice for President of France is Nicholas Sarkozy, attacking his major opponent, François Hollande (Socialist Party), while in France. She'll even be undertaking at least two campaign appearances for Nicholas Sarkozy, including appearing when he officially announces his candidacy, according to the Spiegel Online.

The issue is that Holland wants greater interventionism in the Eurozone, including the creation of Eurobonds, something which Merkel has steadfastly resisted.

So the questions I'm putting out are, should Germany be intervening in French politics? Is it right for one nation's leader to make it so publicly known that they prefer a certain candidate?

As both of the articles I linked to have pointed out, the issue is that Merkel has to work with whoever wins the election. And Hollande looks likely to win. This isn't like the US presidential election where who knows who might be the Republican candidate, or where the polls have a far longer time to change and we have months of economic news to go. In Europe, economically, either things are going to get better, or they're going to get worse. I don't think either possibility really holds much hope for Sarkozy, he could still go down to defeat even with an improving economy. I think the self-inflicted wounds of austerity are going to reveal far more economic turmoil in Europe, rather than economic improvement. And I think that politically, Merkel is making a huge mistake. She needs to be friends with whichever person is the next president of France. The Franco-German partnership established since the 1950s is one of the cornerstones of European politics and peace. Merkel needs to smile, shake hands with Hollande, and privately attempt to influence him. Not come out publicly and campaign against him.

However, it does show just how strong that partnership has become if Merkel is willing to do this. Perhaps, if Hollande wins the election, he will return the favor during the next German election.
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Spiral Sun
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Postby Spiral Sun » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:56 am

She's just being polite to her host.
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Christmahanikwanzikah
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Postby Christmahanikwanzikah » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:59 am

Did she at least talk to Di Rupo first?

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Costa Fiero
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Postby Costa Fiero » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:15 am

Clearly she wants Alsace Lorraine back. Either that or she is deeply afraid of socialists.

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Postby Forsher » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:20 am

Costa Fiero wrote:Clearly she wants Alsace Lorraine back. Either that or she is deeply afraid of socialists.


She should be careful with that last part. Fear of socialists is one step away from fear of communists and we all know where the nationalism that seems to go with that leads Germany.
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Postby Spiral Sun » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:21 am

Costa Fiero wrote:Clearly she wants Alsace Lorraine back. Either that or she is deeply afraid of socialists.

They are willing to settle for Alsace. A rather conciliatory gesture on her part.
Last edited by Spiral Sun on Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Offenheim
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Postby Offenheim » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:24 am

Spiral Sun wrote:She's just being polite to her host.

I know. I once went to a party and agreed with my friend whenever he spoke. He was so happy with me whenever he had a disagreement with his wife he'd call me to come over.
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Spiral Sun
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Postby Spiral Sun » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:31 am

Offenheim wrote:
Spiral Sun wrote:She's just being polite to her host.

I know. I once went to a party and agreed with my friend whenever he spoke. He was so happy with me whenever he had a disagreement with his wife he'd call me to come over.

And things went down hill with your relationship with the wife?
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Postby Costa Fiero » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:41 am

Spiral Sun wrote:They are willing to settle for Alsace. A rather conciliatory gesture on her part.


Oh no. The locals probably can't bear the shame of having to drink German wine.

Although I am right. She is afraid of socialists. Particularly this one because it seems he might want to put an end to Merkel's version of Monopoly.

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Postby Spiral Sun » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:43 am

Costa Fiero wrote:
Spiral Sun wrote:They are willing to settle for Alsace. A rather conciliatory gesture on her part.


Oh no. The locals probably can't bear the shame of having to drink German wine.

Although I am right. She is afraid of socialists. Particularly this one because it seems he might want to put an end to Merkel's version of Monopoly.

Ehh, she just needs to keep the Franco-German domination of the European Union going. More rewarding than attempting to dominate the devolved Germany.
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:48 am

It's pretty clear that given the schedule of negotiations the European leaders are currently pushing through she's got no interest in an obstinate socialist starting to block stuff. What works for Sarko is that he's realised that the French government isn't being taken seriously by the audience (ie the markets, generally speaking, as well as the non-EU partners) unless it is clear that the Germans are standing behind it. Sarko is still liable to say and do silly things, but Hollande would be far worse.

Last thing the EU needs is even less consensus among decision makers. Pretty clear to innocent bystanders that Hollande winning this would be a bad outcome.
Last edited by Neu Leonstein on Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Cosmopoles » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:50 am

It doesn't seem like a very smart move for Merkel. What happens when Germany needs France's cooperation after Hollande wins?

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Postby Neu Leonstein » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:52 am

Cosmopoles wrote:It doesn't seem like a very smart move for Merkel. What happens when Germany needs France's cooperation after Hollande wins?

They wouldn't get it either way. From what we know about his domestic policy proposals, Hollande is not one to value pragmatism or public policy as a technical discipline.

Realistically, Merkel can do this (apparently she's more popular in France than Sarko is), and at the same time prepare relations with other EU leaders in anticipation of freezing French opinions out of key matters.
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Postby Spiral Sun » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:53 am

Cosmopoles wrote:It doesn't seem like a very smart move for Merkel. What happens when Germany needs France's cooperation after Hollande wins?

Might depend on the Prime Minister.
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Baltenstein
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Postby Baltenstein » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:00 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:
Cosmopoles wrote:It doesn't seem like a very smart move for Merkel. What happens when Germany needs France's cooperation after Hollande wins?

They wouldn't get it either way. From what we know about his domestic policy proposals, Hollande is not one to value pragmatism or public policy as a technical discipline.

Realistically, Merkel can do this (apparently she's more popular in France than Sarko is), and at the same time prepare relations with other EU leaders in anticipation of freezing French opinions out of key matters.


Given than Greece, Portugal, Italy and Spain would probably back a socialist-governed France in most eurozone decisions, I doubt isolating Monsieur Hollande would be that easy.
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Postby Cromarty » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:01 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:
Cosmopoles wrote:It doesn't seem like a very smart move for Merkel. What happens when Germany needs France's cooperation after Hollande wins?

They wouldn't get it either way. From what we know about his domestic policy proposals, Hollande is not one to value pragmatism or public policy as a technical discipline.

Realistically, Merkel can do this (apparently she's more popular in France than Sarko is), and at the same time prepare relations with other EU leaders in anticipation of freezing French opinions out of key matters.

My left nut is more popular in France than Sarko is.
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Postby Tagmatium » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:03 am

Cromarty wrote:
Neu Leonstein wrote:They wouldn't get it either way. From what we know about his domestic policy proposals, Hollande is not one to value pragmatism or public policy as a technical discipline.

Realistically, Merkel can do this (apparently she's more popular in France than Sarko is), and at the same time prepare relations with other EU leaders in anticipation of freezing French opinions out of key matters.

My left nut is more popular in France than Sarko is.

Can we expect a new contender in the French presidential race?
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Postby Cromarty » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:05 am

Tagmatium wrote:
Cromarty wrote:My left nut is more popular in France than Sarko is.

Can we expect a new contender in the French presidential race?

Sure why not.

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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:05 am

Baltenstein wrote:Given than Greece, Portugal, Italy and Spain would probably back a socialist-governed France in most eurozone decisions, I doubt isolating Monsieur Hollande would be that easy.

Greece and Portugal don't get listened to, and Italy is run by Monti, who is as pro-German as it gets. Even the Spanish are run by conservatives now. Plus, you've got all the non-elected types: Juncker and his ilk, the ECB and even Lagarde.
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Postby Drakenwaald » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:21 am

This is hardly surprising. Merkel has an investment in Sarkozy. Hollande is a bit of a wildcard, but she'd likely find as much common ground with him as Sarkozy, although having a leader in the same political sphere as your own is always helpful, I do not think that she can honestly do anything about Hollande's popularity.

Still, it will be interesting to see a Leftist France and a Conservative Germany working the EU together.

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Postby Baltenstein » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:22 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:
Baltenstein wrote:Given than Greece, Portugal, Italy and Spain would probably back a socialist-governed France in most eurozone decisions, I doubt isolating Monsieur Hollande would be that easy.

Greece and Portugal don't get listened to, and Italy is run by Monti, who is as pro-German as it gets. Even the Spanish are run by conservatives now. Plus, you've got all the non-elected types: Juncker and his ilk, the ECB and even Lagarde.


Monti is not a German yes-man. He's also demanding things from Merkel. Given the expectable (disastrous) outcome of the Spanish austerity measures and the effect those will have on his popularity, I think it's likely that Rajoy will give in as well. Juncker was actually the first one to propose the introduction of Eurobonds. And while Portugal and Greece may not get listened to, the second- and third-biggest economies of the Eurozone will.
Last edited by Baltenstein on Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Hippostania » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:33 am

As long as Sarkozy remains in power, I don't give a damn about anyone interfering in French politics. Hell, I'd even support vote fraud, gerrymandering, anything as long as Sarkozy stays in power. It's extremely vital for the future of the entire Europe that Sarkozy remains in power.
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Postby Baltenstein » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:45 am

Hippostania wrote:As long as Sarkozy remains in power, I don't give a damn about anyone interfering in French politics. Hell, I'd even support vote fraud, gerrymandering, anything as long as Sarkozy stays in power.


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Campinia
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Postby Campinia » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:48 am

Christmahanikwanzikah wrote:Did she at least talk to Di Rupo first?

*anti-joke chicken*
They did meet a few weeks ago, in Berlin.
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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:02 am

Baltenstein wrote:Monti is not a German yes-man. He's also demanding things from Merkel.

Did you bother reading the actual article in the FT? There is a Golden Rule when it comes to the euro crisis: Do. Not. Listen. To. German. Media.

The way everything is presented borders on the criminal. And generally they're way behind anyway.

Given the expectable (disastrous) outcome of the Spanish austerity measures and the effect those will have on his popularity, I think it's likely that Rajoy will give in as well. Juncker was actually the first one to propose the introduction of Eurobonds. And while Portugal and Greece may not get listened to, the second- and third-biggest economies of the Eurozone will.

Eh, I think you underestimate the degree to which everyone discounts the opinions of everyone but two people: Merkel and Draghi. I mean, that's the veto, ultimately. Hollande can beg for euro bonds all he wants, but without Germany they're not going to get more than France's rating minus the weight of the PIIGS. No point then, just another instrument to avoid unless the ECB will accept it as dodgy collateral.
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