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Why do Neo-Nazis exist?

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Drakenwaald
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Postby Drakenwaald » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:42 pm

You talk about a "split" from Nazism, as if all Nationalists must necessarily start from Nazism and then "split" from it.


I have never heard of Breivik talk of Norway specifically, instead, it has always been 'Western Europe'. You're misconstruing his points. Breivik's goals do not stop at the National level, like you think that they do, instead, they go forward in a pan-European agenda that goes beyond being Nationalist. Unless you want to try and say that Western Europe is a Nation.

EDIT: In which case, you had best start saying Pan-Nationalist.

If you read the material I provided for you, you would understand that Breivik was not just against Muslims, he's made scapegoats out of the Democratic Socialists in his country, (or Cultural Marxists) and this is affirmed by the massacre that he committed (Utoya). There is also the part in his manifesto wherein he identifies Economic Liberalists, anti-Colonialists, traditional Right-wingers, etc. as threats to his ideologies and as subversives for Islam/Cultural Marxists. There is also sections that decry Democracy for the same reason.

It is also worthy to note the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg was suggested to be destroyed, by Breivik, and for the same reason;

The European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) in Strasbourg is an international judicial body established in 1950 to monitor respect of human rights by states.
This court has however to a larger degree developed into an unrecognizable beast whosemain task is to deconstruct European traditions, culture and identity because it is considered offensive towards all non-Europeans and especially Muslims. Since we still want to preserve our culture and heritage I see no other alternative than to reform (limiting the current mandate considerably, or replace the cultural Marxist judges with cultural conservative ones) or completely eliminate the court altogether


And then, we also get into his rants about Feminism, Muliculturalism, Egalitarianism, etc. in Chapter 2.8,


"As a Western man, I would be tempted to say that Western women have to some extent brought this upon themselves."


in reference to,

"..Are not the notorious ‘gang rapes’ another example of collective violence to European women, just as Russian soldiers did when they seized German women in a devastated Berlin in 1945. It all holds together. A tribe that does not protect its women is behaving as if they have already lost the war. Many of us don’t know this. But our enemies do."


And then, we have the later chapters, where Breivik blames Feminism for 'softening' Europe's 'defenses' against Islam. I could go on and on about how Breivik completely trashes Left ideology and blames it for letting the Muslims in.

Coincidentally, Hitler did the exact same thing when he brought up the Left during his time. Blamed it for letting the Jews and the Bolshevists in, and then blamed the Jews and the Bolshevists for ruining the country.

Consider the possibility that Breivik was never a Nazi and therefore never had to "split" from it.


Define Nazism for me. What do you think Nazism is? How is it different from shutting off immigration, becoming colonialist (expansionist), becoming less economically liberal, less feminist, more monocultural and less Democratic?

Please, don't tell me we're headed for the 'White Nationalism =/= Nazism' argument.

Breivik is part of the Counter-Jihad movement, it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Nazism. Breivik was against Muslim influence in Europe, and allied himself with Jews. Hitler was against Jewish influence in Europe, and allied himself with Muslims.


I was not citing that Breivik was part of the Counter-Jihad movement and basing my opinions that he is a Nazi off of the fact that he is a Counter-Jihadist, or even off the fact that he is anti-Muslim. Again, read the manifesto I provided for you. Take note of the part where he smashes Leftism and promotes a single-minded Rightist state wherein Liberalism of any form is blamed on being weak and letting the 'unwashed hordes' in to conquer the nation and rape that which was once great. Compare that with Nazism and his views on the Jews and the Bolsheviks and tell me again that I have no reason to believe he is a Nazi.

The onus is not on me to prove that Breivik wasn't a Nazi. You're the one who made the claim.


And now I have forwarded my views on why I think he is a Nazi. The onus is on you to prove that Breivik is just an Anti-Immigrant Nationalist.
Last edited by Drakenwaald on Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ootsta
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Postby Ootsta » Fri Feb 10, 2012 10:54 pm

Guilt-By-Association is a logical fallacy. I suppose if I'm a vegetarian non-smoker who loves my German shephard, you think I'm a Nazi too. You've given no evidence that he's a Nazi, you've just cobbled together parts of his ideology that you think he has in common with Nazism. You've not shown anywhere where he self-identifies as a Nazi or even mentions Nazism. You're acting as if opposition to immigration = Nazism, which is preposterous.

http://www.pepysdiary.com/archive/1660/08/10/index.php
In 1596 Elizabeth I had already decreed that all ‘blackamoors’ should be sent back to Spain or Portugal as they were disturbing local labour markets.

Was Queen Elizabeth I of England a Nazi 300+ years before Nazism existed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigratio ... n_Act_1901
The Immigration Restriction Act 1901 was an Act of the Parliament of Australia which limited immigration to Australia and formed the basis of the White Australia policy. It also provided for illegal immigrants to be deported.

Was the Immigration Restriction Act 1901 Nazi, even though it was 1901 and Nazism didn't exist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Quota_Act
The Emergency Quota Act, also known as the Emergency Immigration Act of 1921, the Immigration Restriction Act of 1921, the Per Centum Law, and the Johnson Quota Act (ch. 8, 42 Stat. 5 of May 19, 1921) restricted immigration into the United States.

Was the Emergency Quota Act Nazi, even though it was 1921 and the Nazi party was barely a year old in Germany?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Later_life ... _Churchill
He tried in vain to manoeuvre the cabinet into restricting West Indian immigration. "Keep England White" was a good slogan, he told the cabinet in January 1955.[10] Ian Gilmour records Churchill saying to him, in 1955, about immigration: "I think it is the most important subject facing this country, but I cannot get any of my ministers to take any notice".

Was Sir Winston Churchill a Nazi in 1955?
Last edited by Ootsta on Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:43 pm, edited 6 times in total.
You're against Fascism? Brilliant, I wonder if you're against the Tyrannosaurus Rex. It's not 1940 anymore, how about fighting for a cause that's actually relevant. Otherwise you're another one of these fake radicals who think they're being tough and edgy and fighting some big enemy that doesn't really exist, while they let the real enemies slip past.

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Drakenwaald
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Postby Drakenwaald » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:16 pm

Guilt-By-Association is a logical fallacy.


You're dodging the argument while not providing any sources, opinions, or any actual thoughts. It's nice to point out fallacies here, but unless you're explaining how I'm using them, in depth, with quotes, then I'm not going to bother to respond to them. Just as you are not bothering to respond to any of the points I have put forward.

You've given no evidence that he's a Nazi, you've just cobbled together parts of his ideolgy that you think he has in common with Nazism.


Rather, that I have given evidence towards the fact that he is a Nazi, because he shares views to the Nazis, because he shares the opinions of Nazis. I'm not generalizing anything.

You've not shown anywhere where he self-identifies as a Nazi or even mentions Nazism.


Karl Marx never mentioned or said that he was a Communist. Yet, here he is, the father of Marxism, which is Communism, and with him being a firm Communist. You don't have to force a confession out of someone to have an answer, but then again you can't just look at what they have done and say that they are that. Instead, you have to analyze their views in great depth, which I have done.

That being said, I'd like to see some points of your own being forwarded here. I've not heard anything out of you on this subject other than that he was just an Anti-Immigrant Nationalist, and I'm highly skeptical that you even addressed my opinion with the intent to argue it, as opposed to pointing out fallacies and serving less as an argument opponent and more as an editor assistant.

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Drakenwaald
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Postby Drakenwaald » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:35 pm

Was Queen Elizabeth of England I a Nazi 300+ years before Nazism existed?


Interesting how you use the exact same fallacy to prove mine wrong. Elizabeth wanted to expel them for economic reasons. She did not, however, write a manifesto in which her views were clearly established, a manifesto wherein the following ideas were listed, but not limited to;

-Liberalization of the Western World being deemed as weak.
-A will to return to a severely more Conservative moral standard was expressed.
-Anti-Colonialism being seen as weak.
-Blame was shifted upon this group for not only the economic problems which they were allegedly causing, but also due to the moral, social, and infrastructural problems which they would cause.
-Multiculturalism of any form being deemed as 'weak' and 'oppressive'.

Was the Immigration Restriction Act 1901 Nazi, even though it was 1901 and Nazism didn't exist?


Just because Nazism does not exist by name, does not mean it does not exist. Laissez-Faire was a concept first coined by M. Le Gendre, but it obviously existed before that. But again, you're misreading my original assertions and stopping at immigration and immigration control, when I have evolved far past that. You're not addressing his attitudes towards Feminism, you're not addressing his attitudes on the Liberalization of the economy and moral values, you're not addressing his attitudes on multi-culturalism, and you're not addressing his attitudes on expansionism.

You also seem to be very content with accusing me of subscribing to the Association Fallacy, when the only one saying Breivik was a Nazi due to his immigration views is, in fact, you.
Last edited by Drakenwaald on Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Ootsta
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Postby Ootsta » Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:40 pm

Once again, you're the one claiming he's a Nazi, so the burden of proof is on you. Me calling you out on your use of a logical fallacy doesn't require "quotes, sources or opinions". All it needs for me to point out that having something in common with some aspect of Nazism doesn't make you a Nazi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum
Reductio ad Hitlerum, also argumentum ad Hitlerum, (Latin for "reduction to" and "argument to" and dog Latin for "Hitler" respectively) is an ad hominem or ad misericordiam argument whereby an opponent's view is compared to a view that would be held by Adolf Hitler or the Nazi Party. It is a fallacy of irrelevance, in which a conclusion is suggested based solely on something's or someone's origin rather than its current meaning. The suggested logic is one of guilt by association.

I am against vivisection. I don't smoke. I'm a vegetarian. I like dogs. I have these things in common with Hitler. But I am not a Nazi.

How about the fact that Breivik wasn't an anti-Semite, supported Zionism, explicitly said he wasn't a Nazi, openly criticised Hitler, and openly admired the Norwegian anti-Nazi fighter Max Manus and also Winston Churchill who fought Hitler?

http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/0 ... -question/
“Were the majority of the German and European Jews disloyal? Yes, at least the so called liberal Jews, similar to the liberal Jews today that opposes nationalism/Zionism and supports multiculturalism. Jews that support multiculturalism today are as much of athreat to Israel and Zionism (Israeli nationalism) as they are to us. So let us fight together with Israel, with our Zionist brothers against all anti-Zionists, against all culturalMarxists/multiculturalists. Conservative Jews were loyal to Europe and should have been rewarded. Instead, [Hitler] just targeted them all…”

”So, are the current Jews in Europe and US disloyal? The multiculturalist (nation-wrecking) Jews ARE while the conservative Jews ARE NOT. Aprox. 75% of European/US Jews support multiculturalism while aprox. 50% of Israeli Jews does the same. This shows very clearly that we must embrace the remainingloyal Jews as brothers rather than repeating the mistake of the [Nazis].”

"The fear of Islamisation is the most pressing concern for most Europeans and Islam is NOT a race. So avoid talking about race. It is a cultural war, not a race war!"

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2011/07/2 ... 78740.html
He is a declared admirer of Winston Churchill and Lieutenant Max Manus, a member of the Norwegian resistance to Nazi occupation during the Second World War.
Last edited by Ootsta on Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You're against Fascism? Brilliant, I wonder if you're against the Tyrannosaurus Rex. It's not 1940 anymore, how about fighting for a cause that's actually relevant. Otherwise you're another one of these fake radicals who think they're being tough and edgy and fighting some big enemy that doesn't really exist, while they let the real enemies slip past.

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Drakenwaald
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Postby Drakenwaald » Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:28 am

I'd be willing to admit that Breivik is not a Nazi based off of his lack of anti-antisemitism (perceived or not), but regardless, my original point still stands.

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CTALNH
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Postby CTALNH » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:33 am

Does anybody here know what the real name of the Nazis is?

To elaborate their party was the National Socialist workers Party without saying that they pretty much killed all the leftists before the war had even started....
Well I have read the their "sacred bible the Mein Kampf' only because I am a communist and I just wanted to know why would anybody agree with that ideology!
My ignorance was huge at first I purely hated them but now I just hate them ideologically by that I mean at first I wanted to torture them then kill them now a bullet to the head will do...

See after I read the book I understood that to think and say that you are a National Socialist there would be a set of beliefs that you first should believe first...

1)White Supremacy or Arian Supremacy this can be disregarded or more often changed a little to meet its countries quota and National socialism can be implemented just about everywhere!
2)Militarism this can't be disregarded it is one of the fundamentals of the ideology!
3)"The end justifies the means"Machiavelli They sure took this seriously.....Hmmm who am I to talk a bout extremism....
4)A mixed economical system slightly capitalist otherwise many times they completely support corporatism!
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
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The Greater Aryan Race
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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:43 am

CTALNH wrote:Does anybody here know what the real name of the Nazis is?

To elaborate their party was the National Socialist workers Party without saying that they pretty much killed all the leftists before the war had even started....
Well I have read the their "sacred bible the Mein Kampf' only because I am a communist and I just wanted to know why would anybody agree with that ideology!
My ignorance was huge at first I purely hated them but now I just hate them ideologically by that I mean at first I wanted to torture them then kill them now a bullet to the head will do...

See after I read the book I understood that to think and say that you are a National Socialist there would be a set of beliefs that you first should believe first...

1)White Supremacy or Arian Supremacy this can be disregarded or more often changed a little to meet its countries quota and National socialism can be implemented just about everywhere!
2)Militarism this can't be disregarded it is one of the fundamentals of the ideology!
3)"The end justifies the means"Machiavelli They sure took this seriously.....Hmmm who am I to talk a bout extremism....
4)A mixed economical system slightly capitalist otherwise many times they completely support corporatism!


I'm not sure if point 4 is from their beliefs. From what I know, that's more of a Fascist thing.
Imperium Sidhicum wrote:So, uh... Is this another one of those threads where everyone is supposed to feel outraged and circle-jerk in agreement of how injust and terrible the described incident is?

Because if it is, I'm probably going to say something mean and contrary just to contradict the majority.

This nation is now IC-ly known as the Teutonic Reich.

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CTALNH
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Postby CTALNH » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:46 am

Fascism is more right than National socialism....
"This guy is a State socialist, which doesn't so much mean mass murder and totalitarianism as it means trying to have a strong state to lead the way out of poverty and towards a bright future. Strict state control of the economy is necessary to make the great leap forward into that brighter future, and all elements of society must be sure to contribute or else."
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The Greater Aryan Race
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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:49 am

CTALNH wrote:Fascism is more right than National socialism....


Fascism is more of an extreme authoritative centre-of-right ideology.

National Socialism is just some convoluted form of racism.
Imperium Sidhicum wrote:So, uh... Is this another one of those threads where everyone is supposed to feel outraged and circle-jerk in agreement of how injust and terrible the described incident is?

Because if it is, I'm probably going to say something mean and contrary just to contradict the majority.

This nation is now IC-ly known as the Teutonic Reich.

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Postby Ralkovia » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:49 am

Plantatia wrote:This is my attept to repost this nonsense as a proper thread, as I fell it will make for an interesting discussion.

The question is, of course, why do neo-nazi groups exist? Why are there people who seem to see the Third Riech as something to be emmulated or glorified?
As we all know, the Nazi regime was an authoritarian Facsist dictatorship involving racial nationalism, a personality cult, genocide on a massive and industrialized scale, and the standard dictatorial violence.

Personally, I think that people today are attracted to Nazism for the same reasons they were then: They feel somehow let down or betrayed by society and channel that into nationalist or racist fervor.

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The Greater Aryan Race
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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:55 am

Ralkovia wrote:
Because Hitlers mustache inspires evil in any generation.



That reminds me.


Image
Imperium Sidhicum wrote:So, uh... Is this another one of those threads where everyone is supposed to feel outraged and circle-jerk in agreement of how injust and terrible the described incident is?

Because if it is, I'm probably going to say something mean and contrary just to contradict the majority.

This nation is now IC-ly known as the Teutonic Reich.

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Britennene
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Postby Britennene » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:10 am

Well, some people are easily distracted by good speeches. Neo-Nazis actually believe the lies of Hitler, as did most Germans when he was in power. He brutally even disguised his party to be Socialist. The truth was, that he despised the idea of equality in Socialism. That's probably why he had all the left-wingers killed, or sent to camps.

If it was my choice, all Neo-Nazis should be gathered in Camps, and gassed in their own chambers. Some of them would go to forced labour, some of them to medical research. The rest, would be killed. All weak and old ones would be killed, as they are no help at all. No, wait, they shot in order based on ugliness.
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The Greater Aryan Race
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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:12 am

Britennene wrote:Well, some people are easily distracted by good speeches. Neo-Nazis actually believe the lies of Hitler, as did most Germans when he was in power. He brutally even disguised his party to be Socialist. The truth was, that he despised the idea of equality in Socialism. That's probably who he had all the left-wingers killed, or sent to camps.

If it was my choice, all Neo-Nazis should be gathered in Camps, and gassed in their own chambers. Some of them would go to forced labour, some of them to medical research. The rest, would be killed. All weak and old ones would be killed, as they are no help at all. No, wait, they shot in order based on ugliness.


^ This.

And I, being a Fascist, abhor the anti-semitism and racism of Nazism. It's just bad taste.
Imperium Sidhicum wrote:So, uh... Is this another one of those threads where everyone is supposed to feel outraged and circle-jerk in agreement of how injust and terrible the described incident is?

Because if it is, I'm probably going to say something mean and contrary just to contradict the majority.

This nation is now IC-ly known as the Teutonic Reich.

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Britennene
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Postby Britennene » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:19 am

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:
Britennene wrote:Well, some people are easily distracted by good speeches. Neo-Nazis actually believe the lies of Hitler, as did most Germans when he was in power. He brutally even disguised his party to be Socialist. The truth was, that he despised the idea of equality in Socialism. That's probably who he had all the left-wingers killed, or sent to camps.

If it was my choice, all Neo-Nazis should be gathered in Camps, and gassed in their own chambers. Some of them would go to forced labour, some of them to medical research. The rest, would be killed. All weak and old ones would be killed, as they are no help at all. No, wait, they shot in order based on ugliness.


^ This.

And I, being a Fascist, abhor the anti-semitism and racism of Nazism. It's just bad taste.

Ah, I've met many fascists who oppose the Nazi system. Too bad fascism, just like Communism, can be corrupted in the hands of false implementers.

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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:23 am

Britennene wrote:Ah, I've met many fascists who oppose the Nazi system. Too bad fascism, just like Communism, can be corrupted in the hands of false implementers.


*sighs* That is true....
Imperium Sidhicum wrote:So, uh... Is this another one of those threads where everyone is supposed to feel outraged and circle-jerk in agreement of how injust and terrible the described incident is?

Because if it is, I'm probably going to say something mean and contrary just to contradict the majority.

This nation is now IC-ly known as the Teutonic Reich.

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Postby Distruzio » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:37 am

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:
Britennene wrote:Ah, I've met many fascists who oppose the Nazi system. Too bad fascism, just like Communism, can be corrupted in the hands of false implementers.


*sighs* That is true....


What is it, specifically, that appeals to you about fascism that repulses you in nazism?
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Postby Britennene » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:39 am

Distruzio wrote:
The Greater Aryan Race wrote:
*sighs* That is true....


What is it, specifically, that appeals to you about fascism that repulses you in nazism?

Anti-Semitism, Anti-Zionism, Racism, Ugly uniforms, Imperialism, Jingoism... There's plenty of stuff Nazis did that even Fascists disagree with.

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Postby The Greater Aryan Race » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:42 am

Britennene wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
What is it, specifically, that appeals to you about fascism that repulses you in nazism?

Anti-Semitism, Anti-Zionism, Racism, Ugly uniforms, Imperialism, Jingoism... There's plenty of stuff Nazis did that even Fascists disagree with.


^ Once again, this.
Imperium Sidhicum wrote:So, uh... Is this another one of those threads where everyone is supposed to feel outraged and circle-jerk in agreement of how injust and terrible the described incident is?

Because if it is, I'm probably going to say something mean and contrary just to contradict the majority.

This nation is now IC-ly known as the Teutonic Reich.

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Britennene
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Postby Britennene » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:42 am

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:
Britennene wrote:Anti-Semitism, Anti-Zionism, Racism, Ugly uniforms, Imperialism, Jingoism... There's plenty of stuff Nazis did that even Fascists disagree with.


^ Once again, this.

:lol:

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Postby Trotskylvania » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:43 am

The Greater Aryan Race wrote:
Britennene wrote:Anti-Semitism, Anti-Zionism, Racism, Ugly uniforms, Imperialism, Jingoism... There's plenty of stuff Nazis did that even Fascists disagree with.


^ Once again, this.

Jingoism, imperialism and ugly uniforms are pretty much defining characteristics of classical fascism
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Postby Laskheaomjgiien » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:47 am

*Section 1 Deleted because of being in character*
Trotskylvania wrote:
The Greater Aryan Race wrote:
^ Once again, this.

Jingoism, imperialism and ugly uniforms are pretty much defining characteristics of classical fascism

Definitively, couldn't say it better myself or even as good.
Last edited by Laskheaomjgiien on Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:18 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Postby Trotskylvania » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:51 am

Laskheaomjgiien wrote:As a loosely nit confederation of clans, I'm outraged at your lack of sensibility, central power should simply be virtually inexistent, and the purpose of government should only be to create the outwardly appearance of government.(Both in character and out of character believe the same thing on the issue of local vs national power, it makes sense to keep power local.)

This forum is completely OOC.
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Postby Laskheaomjgiien » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:54 am

Trotskylvania wrote:
Laskheaomjgiien wrote:As a loosely nit confederation of clans, I'm outraged at your lack of sensibility, central power should simply be virtually inexistent, and the purpose of government should only be to create the outwardly appearance of government.(Both in character and out of character believe the same thing on the issue of local vs national power, it makes sense to keep power local.)

This forum is completely OOC.

Well then let me correct myself with an excess post,
I happen to be more in favor of a loose confederation, where national authority is limited to maintaining those rights of natural-persons, communities, and association their of, as are federally recognized.
If one wants me to formulate a specific opinion as to why Neo-Nazi's exist? Not everyone is a good person, some bad people aren't ashamed to admit it. :palm:
Last edited by Laskheaomjgiien on Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:08 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Distruzio
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Founded: Feb 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Distruzio » Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:22 am

Britennene wrote:
Distruzio wrote:
What is it, specifically, that appeals to you about fascism that repulses you in nazism?

Anti-Semitism, Anti-Zionism, Racism, Ugly uniforms, Imperialism, Jingoism... There's plenty of stuff Nazis did that even Fascists disagree with.


So... racism? I can accept that.
Eastern Orthodox Christian

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