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Could an Independent Minnesota Survive?

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West Vandengaarde
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Could an Independent Minnesota Survive?

Postby West Vandengaarde » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:32 pm

I'm really making this based off discussion and personal values/beliefs, but it does of course have the ability to drive a discussion forward in NSG.

Let's say it's November of 2012, and radical candidates have been elected in to the United States Congress as well as in to the White House itself. Minnesota, a rather moderate or left-leaning state by U.S. standards for the most part, has decided it no longer has a place in the Union and decides to peacefully leave, even passing a referendum with the voters of the state to leave the nation which passes with a "Yes" vote in favor of secession with 79% of the votes.

I realize this is already a bit of a stretch, but let's also say that the United States, currently distracted by something else, just lets Minnesota go and lets Puerto Rico take its spot as a state or something so they don't have to bother changing the flag and whatnot. However, they also embargo Minnesota, though this is a unilateral action as Canada for some stupid reason fears Minnesota, who have now been joined by the Dakotas in their secession due to geographic neatness and a somewhat similar culture between these states.

Could Minnesota and the Dakotas, as an independent nation, survive in an international economy as well as being somewhat self-sufficient, or would it collapse as a state?

I say it could, if most agriculture was moved to the Dakotas while Minnesota became the manufacturing center of the new nation due to the fact that Minnesota has Minneapolis, Duluth, etc. as well as companies like 3M and General Mills, who, for the sake of the scenario, stay with the state due to historical locations within the state as well as nationalist ties within the corporations.
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United Counties of Escanaba
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Postby United Counties of Escanaba » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:38 pm

What is this thing with Minnesota? Why don't we ask if New Jersey can survive? It has about as much interest as a thread.

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West Vandengaarde
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Postby West Vandengaarde » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:40 pm

United Counties of Escanaba wrote:What is this thing with Minnesota? Why don't we ask if New Jersey can survive? It has about as much interest as a thread.

Cuz I live in Minnesota. :(
"Conscious of my own weakness, I can only seek fervently the guidance of the Ruler of the Universe, and, relying on His all-powerful aid, do my best to restore Union and peace to a suffering people, and to establish and guard their liberties and rights." - George B. McClellan

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Postby Avenio » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:41 pm

Probably not, by my understanding of things. They'd be, for all practical purposes, an economic vassal of Canada and the US, since it would be, for all intents and purposes, landlocked and subject to whatever economic tariffs or other restrictions they put on them. It would be either a case of sovereignty-by-association (ie they'd be attached by the hip to the US) or a depressed little backwater.
Last edited by Avenio on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ajaria
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Could an Independent Minnesota Survive?

Postby Ajaria » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:43 pm

Wait, Canada is oddly scared of this new nation and decides not to embargo them because of this fear?
This situation seems really illogical, and one of the only Minnesota-Wanks I have ever seen.
Still, it probably wouldn't. America's embargo means some sort of animosity exists between the US and the new country, and with Canada's fear, it would probably take whatever chance it has to get rid of this new state.

-Parhe

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Urcea
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Postby Urcea » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:43 pm

No.

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Vousielle
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Postby Vousielle » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:43 pm

In the same sense that an independent Illinois could. Both states have rich and diverse natural resources, and international shipping ports via the great lakes. However, no great lakes region state would ever be anything more than a client state of the US.
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West Vandengaarde
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Postby West Vandengaarde » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:44 pm

Ajaria wrote:Wait, Canada is oddly scared of this new nation and decides not to embargo them because of this fear?
This situation seems really illogical, and one of the only Minnesota-Wanks I have ever seen.
Still, it probably wouldn't. America's embargo means some sort of animosity exists between the US and the new country, and with Canada's fear, it would probably take whatever chance it has to get rid of this new state.

-Parhe

I was really joking about that, to be fair. The Canadians just probably wouldn't see a reason to, like how they don't embargo Cuba.
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The Murtunian Tribes
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Postby The Murtunian Tribes » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:45 pm

Avenio wrote:Probably not, by my understanding of things. They'd be, for all practical purposes, an economic vassal of Canada and the US, since it would be, for all intents and purposes, landlocked and subject to whatever economic tariffs or other restrictions they put on them. It would be either a case of sovereignty-by-association (ie they'd be attached by the hip to the US) or a depressed little backwater.

Pretty much. They have no viable ports that don't go through both Canadian and U.S. waters.

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Postby I-gloo » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:45 pm

Eh actually I think the Dakotas are more conservative but I could be wrong. I live in Minnesota but I don't think that we'd have a good chance of survival as an independent state. We'd probably just appeal to Canada to become a new province and I'm sure Canada would have no problem with it.
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Episarta
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Postby Episarta » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:45 pm

Maybe? If Canada would like us. It's an interesting idea, I guess. And seeing as how I live in North Dakota, it would affect me. The mining and oil in western North Dakota and the Black Hills of South Dakota could provide some nice raw material for major manufacturing centres in Minnesota. And North Dakota would probably take over a majority of the agriculture with some help from South Dakota. Not too big of a population. It would be around 2.5 million in all, right? It might work, but you never know with these sort of things.

Although the Dakotas are more conservative, except for the Red River Valley where I live, which is often a bit more liberal.
Last edited by Episarta on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:48 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Radiatia
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Postby Radiatia » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:46 pm

Personally I don't think it could survive. Obviously I don't know that much about Minnesota, but I do know that given its location it would have a hell of a lot of trouble trading with the rest of the world and in all honesty it doesn't produce -that- much as far as I know (judging from the fact that it's an American state I know next to nothing about and hear nothing about.)

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West Vandengaarde
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Postby West Vandengaarde » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:46 pm

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
Avenio wrote:Probably not, by my understanding of things. They'd be, for all practical purposes, an economic vassal of Canada and the US, since it would be, for all intents and purposes, landlocked and subject to whatever economic tariffs or other restrictions they put on them. It would be either a case of sovereignty-by-association (ie they'd be attached by the hip to the US) or a depressed little backwater.

Pretty much. They have no viable ports that don't go through both Canadian and U.S. waters.

That's why I say the best bet would be to be somewhat self-sufficient. But that would require either a massive population shift to increase agricultural production in the Dakotas or immigration from somewhere for the necessary unskilled labor.
"Conscious of my own weakness, I can only seek fervently the guidance of the Ruler of the Universe, and, relying on His all-powerful aid, do my best to restore Union and peace to a suffering people, and to establish and guard their liberties and rights." - George B. McClellan

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West Vandengaarde
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Postby West Vandengaarde » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:46 pm

Episarta wrote:Maybe? If Canada would like us. It's an interesting idea, I guess. And seeing as how I live in North Dakota, it would affect me. But mining and oil in western North Dakota and the Black Hills of South Dakota could provide some nice raw material for major manufacturing centres in Minnesota. And North Dakota would probably take over a majority of the agriculture with some help from South Dakota. Not too big of a population. It would be around 2.5 million in all, right? It might work, but you never know with these sort of things.

Minnesota's population is over 5 million, so it wouldn't be quite that small.
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The Murtunian Tribes
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Postby The Murtunian Tribes » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:48 pm

West Vandengaarde wrote:
The Murtunian Tribes wrote:Pretty much. They have no viable ports that don't go through both Canadian and U.S. waters.

That's why I say the best bet would be to be somewhat self-sufficient. But that would require either a massive population shift to increase agricultural production in the Dakotas or immigration from somewhere for the necessary unskilled labor.

Self-sufficient? Don't make me laugh. Americans don't know the meaning of the word. There is no way they could produce enough by themselves to support anything REMOTELY close to their current standard of living without trade.

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Austria Prussia
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Postby Austria Prussia » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:49 pm

I don't think it could. Not to mention if the US Senate, House of Representatives and White House were all occupied by "radicals", all of the liberal states would be just as likely as Minnesota to leave in this scenario.

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Ajaria
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Could an Independent Minnesota Survive?

Postby Ajaria » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:49 pm

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
West Vandengaarde wrote:That's why I say the best bet would be to be somewhat self-sufficient. But that would require either a massive population shift to increase agricultural production in the Dakotas or immigration from somewhere for the necessary unskilled labor.

Self-sufficient? Don't make me laugh. Americans don't know the meaning of the word. There is no way they could produce enough by themselves to support anything REMOTELY close to their current standard of living without trade.

I am not aware of one present nation that can.
-Parhe
Last edited by Ajaria on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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West Vandengaarde
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Postby West Vandengaarde » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:50 pm

The Murtunian Tribes wrote:
West Vandengaarde wrote:That's why I say the best bet would be to be somewhat self-sufficient. But that would require either a massive population shift to increase agricultural production in the Dakotas or immigration from somewhere for the necessary unskilled labor.

Self-sufficient? Don't make me laugh. Americans don't know the meaning of the word. There is no way they could produce enough by themselves to support anything REMOTELY close to their current standard of living without trade.

We could technically survive with just agriculture, really, and we grow a lot of vegetation, since we're one of the biggest agricultural states, especially for pork. We also have, as I said, companies like 3M for manufacturing needs. I realize it would be a rough transition, but it would be entirely possible with the right effort being put in to it.
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Episarta
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Postby Episarta » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:50 pm

West Vandengaarde wrote:
Episarta wrote:Maybe? If Canada would like us. It's an interesting idea, I guess. And seeing as how I live in North Dakota, it would affect me. But mining and oil in western North Dakota and the Black Hills of South Dakota could provide some nice raw material for major manufacturing centres in Minnesota. And North Dakota would probably take over a majority of the agriculture with some help from South Dakota. Not too big of a population. It would be around 2.5 million in all, right? It might work, but you never know with these sort of things.

Minnesota's population is over 5 million, so it wouldn't be quite that small.


Ah, I thought it was closer to 1.5. Oh well, I like to stay in Grand Forks anyway. Minneapolis scares me. Too big for my tastes.
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Avenio
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Postby Avenio » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:50 pm

West Vandengaarde wrote:That's why I say the best bet would be to be somewhat self-sufficient. But that would require either a massive population shift to increase agricultural production in the Dakotas or immigration from somewhere for the necessary unskilled labor.


So it would require an economic shift on Stalinist scales to work?

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Ajaria
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Could an Independent Minnesota Survive?

Postby Ajaria » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:51 pm

Austria Prussia wrote:I don't think it could. Not to mention if the US Senate, House of Representatives and White House were all occupied by "radicals", all of the liberal states would be just as likely as Minnesota to leave in this scenario.

Then again I think all the states would leave if the house was controlled by radicals.
I mean, I know many conservatives here in Texas, but hardly any radicals, if any that is.

-Parhe
Last edited by Ajaria on Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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I-gloo
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Postby I-gloo » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:52 pm

Episarta wrote:
West Vandengaarde wrote:Minnesota's population is over 5 million, so it wouldn't be quite that small.


Ah, I thought it was closer to 1.5. Oh well, I like to stay in Grand Forks anyway. Minneapolis scares me. Too big for my tastes.


Duluth is the best city in Minnesota :3 but I would never live in the city or any city for that matter.
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West Vandengaarde
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Postby West Vandengaarde » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:53 pm

Avenio wrote:
West Vandengaarde wrote:That's why I say the best bet would be to be somewhat self-sufficient. But that would require either a massive population shift to increase agricultural production in the Dakotas or immigration from somewhere for the necessary unskilled labor.


So it would require an economic shift on Stalinist scales to work?

Yeah, probably. We might be crazy enough for a Stalinist government if, for example, Santorum becomes president.
I do remember that there was a comment by someone that Minnesota might be taken over by a communist revolution in 1932, so we could just be 80 years late.
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Postby Anglynova » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:53 pm

Maybe businesses would be attracted to Minnesota for manufacturing/etc if it were to have looser regulations than the United States and Canada.

Of course it would be tough for the first few years (or decades), but an independent Minnesota/Dakota could definitely survive. Thrive? Not so sure.

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The Murtunian Tribes
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Postby The Murtunian Tribes » Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:54 pm

Ajaria wrote:
The Murtunian Tribes wrote:Self-sufficient? Don't make me laugh. Americans don't know the meaning of the word. There is no way they could produce enough by themselves to support anything REMOTELY close to their current standard of living without trade.

I am not aware of one present nation that can.
-Parhe

Very true, but not really the point.

West Vandengaarde wrote:
The Murtunian Tribes wrote:Self-sufficient? Don't make me laugh. Americans don't know the meaning of the word. There is no way they could produce enough by themselves to support anything REMOTELY close to their current standard of living without trade.

We could technically survive with just agriculture, really, and we grow a lot of vegetation, since we're one of the biggest agricultural states, especially for pork. We also have, as I said, companies like 3M for manufacturing needs. I realize it would be a rough transition, but it would be entirely possible with the right effort being put in to it.

Manufacturers need raw materials. Where do you get those? Trade.

I suppose you could survive, but you'd just be the U.S.'s bitch anyway. So it's really a pointless idea.

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