Son, we love you, but you shouldn't exist...

[Dazchan]

It seems to me that a lot of people here don't realise that the word 'doctor' is an umbrella term. No doctor is an expert in all fields; they specialise. Expecting an IVF doctor to know about genetics is ridiculous. He did the right thing by referring the couple of a genetic counsellor, and it's their fault that they didn't follow up on it.

[Volnotova]

People are always looking for someone to blame when anything goes wrong,

Speak for your self.

[Individual Impersonators]

What kind of parents are these people? They tried once, couldnt get through and gave up.

They didnt go back to the original doctor and say "I cant make an appointment"
They didnt try alternative professionals with equal experience
They didnt even bother with a second call.

Imagine if this was taken to the childs affairs
Sorry, the school line was busy, so it looks like you may start school next year instead
Son, the pharmacy was out of that cream for your rash, so just try and live with it
The stove is broken tonight so it looks like there will be no food for any of us

This legal case raises one major question for me. Are these people fit parents?

[Desperate Measures]

I think I agree with this.

Just because somebody should be punished doesn't mean somebody else should be rewarded.

They're not really being rewarded, what with massive expenses related to caring for the kid.

Reward was a bad choice of words. I think the massive expenses are punishment enough, I guess? I can totally be convinced otherwise, it's just how it seems to me at the moment.

[New England and The Maritimes]

They're not really being rewarded, what with massive expenses related to caring for the kid.

Reward was a bad choice of words. I think the massive expenses are punishment enough, I guess? I can totally be convinced otherwise, it's just how it seems to me at the moment.

It depends. I think it might be too much of a problem, but I don't know the exact amount.

[Bromford]

What kind of parents are these people? They tried once, couldnt get through and gave up.

They didnt go back to the original doctor and say "I cant make an appointment"
They didnt try alternative professionals with equal experience
They didnt even bother with a second call.

Imagine if this was taken to the childs affairs
Sorry, the school line was busy, so it looks like you may start school next year instead
Son, the pharmacy was out of that cream for your rash, so just try and live with it
The stove is broken tonight so it looks like there will be no food for any of us

This legal case raises one major question for me. Are these people fit parents?

They named their son 'Keedon' so I think the answer is fairly obvious.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

He referred them to a genetic specialist. They refused to seek that qualified opinion. It's their own fault

^This.

The doctor referred to them to a specialist. They didn't insist on getting a hold of said specialist and went ahead with the IVF, fully aware of the risks (since there was a 50% chance of the child being born with the condition). I don't see how this is the IVF doctor's problem.

[Gidgetisms]

there was a book semi on this topic, about a little girl who was born with brittle bone syndrome. She had an ultrasound and wasnt told of the possibility of terminating her pregnancy and sued her obstetrician for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handle_With_Care_(novel)

[Risottia]

That's noe thing more people need to realize. Doctors charge so much because they have to pay shitlaods of insurance. And they have to pay shitloads of insurance because so many people feel like its their right to sue a doctor because of their own negligence in seeking/getting treatment.

Doctors charge so much because there's no reason for them not to. Virtually all health care is handled by HMOs in America,

Wait, this thread is about something happened in Australia...

[Saint Jade IV]

NO he only failed in his duty IF he told them not to worry. If he said "I don't know here is the number of a specialist who would" it was their responsibility to use that information. You can't expect a doctor to know everything.

It seems to me that having directed them to some specialist it would be on the IVF doctor to ask them afterwards if the specialist assuaged their concerns and if they were happy that they understood the risks in that regard. But not having been there in this case I really couldn't say whether it happened or not.

That's really my problem with the situation.

[Saint Jade IV]

He referred them to a genetic specialist. They refused to seek that qualified opinion. It's their own fault

^This.

The doctor referred to them to a specialist. They didn't insist on getting a hold of said specialist and went ahead with the IVF, fully aware of the risks (since there was a 50% chance of the child being born with the condition). I don't see how this is the IVF doctor's problem.

The impression I got is that the couple didn't know that there was a 50% risk until after the kid was born.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

^This.

The doctor referred to them to a specialist. They didn't insist on getting a hold of said specialist and went ahead with the IVF, fully aware of the risks (since there was a 50% chance of the child being born with the condition). I don't see how this is the IVF doctor's problem.

The impression I got is that the couple didn't know that there was a 50% risk until after the kid was born.

Even if they didn't, Jade, I think that as potential parents, they should've insisted on getting a hold of that geneticist. And if that failed, try to search for one themselves.

Does Australia provides medical catalogues so that people can search for specialists when they need one? Medical insurers here in the US do that. You can find specialists within your health insurance network and go to them, with referrals from primary doctors, in most cases.

[Individual Impersonators]

The impression I got is that the couple didn't know that there was a 50% risk until after the kid was born.

Even if they didn't, Jade, I think that as potential parents, they should've insisted on getting a hold of that geneticist. And if that failed, try to search for one themselves.

Does Australia provides medical catalogues so that people can search for specialists when they need one? Medical insurers here in the US do that. You can find specialists within your health insurance network and go to them, with referrals from primary doctors, in most cases.

In Australia for non emergencies (where you go to hospital not a practice), most specialists require referals from a General Practicinor (family/basic doctor). The referals are required in an attempt to maximise the time a specialist is performing specialist tasks. If a referal to a specialist was made it would cover all specialists that deemed themselves to cover the genetics field and remain liscenced by the Australian Medical Association. More often than not, there are only a hanful of specialists all whom know each other in every city.

Various groups have their own lists of specalists and/or doctors of differing quality.

If it is not a medical specialist (nutritionalist, orthodontist, massage therapist and the completely whacky such as homeopathy are some examples) then no referal is required. Still a doctor can advise or even require speaking to them. For example a person with no understanding of a healthy diet may be referred to a nutritionalist who would not charge as much per hour but the doctor would still be required to prescribe any drugs that may be recommended. Depending on the person, the doctor may even refuse to see the patient again until they have made a booking.

Considering that a number was provided of a genetics specialist on basic paper I would guess that this was not a formal referal but rather advice. Altho there is a chance it was a formal referal with the referal being sent straight to the specailist or the patients picking up a general referal at the reception.

If a patient seeks to go ahead without advice that is their own risk. Due to the genetic concern the doctor would have been better off insisting advice was recieved but what he did was refer to an appropriate person and later get a call back saying that the patient wanted to go ahead with IVF.

The base of the argument appears to be the importance of the referal as stated by the docotor. Was it formal or wasnt it? Was it downplayed as an "if you wish" or was it a "I strongly advise"?

Better legal ass covering would have required proof of a visit to an appropriate specialist which could be that specialist sending a simple email stating "I have advised the partients that there is a 50% chance of a genetic fault", the patient signing they saw a specialist or more. It is not unknown for some doctors especially in surgery to insist a mentally capable person signs a document stating many such things.

If such an email could be shown, the patients would have no excuse at all and would probably be countersued.

Still I see this as the patients fault. If a doctor tells a patient with high blood pressure not to each fatty foods and they do, its not the doctors fault their advice was not heeded. The doctor may advise the patient to speak to a nutritionalist and if this is not followed, it is the patients choice.

A child is for at least 18 years and will impact everyone much longer than that. The patients were concerned enough to raise the genetic disorder but for some reason decided not to see someone who knew information about it. There is no claim in the newspaper article that the IVF doctor lied about the chance. Either advice to speak to someone else or a formal referal was made.

If you read carefully in the article, it says this family tried to sue before. I think this will be another failed legal attempt.

[Dyakovo]

^This.

The doctor referred to them to a specialist. They didn't insist on getting a hold of said specialist and went ahead with the IVF, fully aware of the risks (since there was a 50% chance of the child being born with the condition). I don't see how this is the IVF doctor's problem.

The impression I got is that the couple didn't know that there was a 50% risk until after the kid was born.

Which would be their own fault for not going to Tue geneticist...

[Tekania]

The Dr Referred them to a genetic counselor/specialist. Near as I can tell he met his obligations in that regard. That they failed to follow up on this referral is their own fault. For this doctor to advise them on the genetic issues here (given its not his area of expertise) is unreasonable.... not to mention for him to give recommendations could open him up to malpractice issues since it's not his area of expertise.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Even if they didn't, Jade, I think that as potential parents, they should've insisted on getting a hold of that geneticist. And if that failed, try to search for one themselves.

Does Australia provides medical catalogues so that people can search for specialists when they need one? Medical insurers here in the US do that. You can find specialists within your health insurance network and go to them, with referrals from primary doctors, in most cases.

In Australia for non emergencies (where you go to hospital not a practice), most specialists require referals from a General Practicinor (family/basic doctor). The referals are required in an attempt to maximise the time a specialist is performing specialist tasks. If a referal to a specialist was made it would cover all specialists that deemed themselves to cover the genetics field and remain liscenced by the Australian Medical Association. More often than not, there are only a hanful of specialists all whom know each other in every city.

Various groups have their own lists of specalists and/or doctors of differing quality.

If it is not a medical specialist (nutritionalist, orthodontist, massage therapist and the completely whacky such as homeopathy are some examples) then no referal is required. Still a doctor can advise or even require speaking to them. For example a person with no understanding of a healthy diet may be referred to a nutritionalist who would not charge as much per hour but the doctor would still be required to prescribe any drugs that may be recommended. Depending on the person, the doctor may even refuse to see the patient again until they have made a booking.

Considering that a number was provided of a genetics specialist on basic paper I would guess that this was not a formal referal but rather advice. Altho there is a chance it was a formal referal with the referal being sent straight to the specailist or the patients picking up a general referal at the reception.

If a patient seeks to go ahead without advice that is their own risk. Due to the genetic concern the doctor would have been better off insisting advice was recieved but what he did was refer to an appropriate person and later get a call back saying that the patient wanted to go ahead with IVF.

The base of the argument appears to be the importance of the referal as stated by the docotor. Was it formal or wasnt it? Was it downplayed as an "if you wish" or was it a "I strongly advise"?

Better legal ass covering would have required proof of a visit to an appropriate specialist which could be that specialist sending a simple email stating "I have advised the partients that there is a 50% chance of a genetic fault", the patient signing they saw a specialist or more. It is not unknown for some doctors especially in surgery to insist a mentally capable person signs a document stating many such things.

If such an email could be shown, the patients would have no excuse at all and would probably be countersued.

Still I see this as the patients fault. If a doctor tells a patient with high blood pressure not to each fatty foods and they do, its not the doctors fault their advice was not heeded. The doctor may advise the patient to speak to a nutritionalist and if this is not followed, it is the patients choice.

A child is for at least 18 years and will impact everyone much longer than that. The patients were concerned enough to raise the genetic disorder but for some reason decided not to see someone who knew information about it. There is no claim in the newspaper article that the IVF doctor lied about the chance. Either advice to speak to someone else or a formal referal was made.

If you read carefully in the article, it says this family tried to sue before. I think this will be another failed legal attempt.

I see. Thanks for this detailed post. Since I am not Australian nor have I ever been to Australia, I wasn't sure what channels do patients and their families have when they need a specialist.

[Greed and Death]

They sorts of suits have been tried in the US, they do not survive. At most the damages are capped at the price of the delivery.

[Cameroi]

i don't see how the parents are any less then co-equal in blame for this, since they appear to have suspected risk might exist. else why would they have sought ought consultation on it?

there are too many humans on this planet already. why do people feel like they're doing something wonderful to add to the problem?

i can understand wanting to have sex of course, but i'm sure they could have done something that wouldn't have been likely to lead to birth, or at least had an early abortion.

[Soviet Atlantis]

He refereed to them to a specialist which was really all he could do, if he himself said anything he would be in more trouble both morally and legally.

[Acerbic]

He referred them to a genetic specialist. They refused to seek that qualified opinion. It's their own fault

This sums up my opinion on this.