NOT Another Abortion Thread

[Neo Arcad]

I'd just like to state, before we begin, that this is NOT ABOUT ABORTION. Rather, it's about the political debate SURROUNDING abortion as an issue. If you want to rant about "dem ebil gawdlesh bebbeh killersh", go make your own thread. And obviously, if this deteriorates into flaming, I'll call it a failed attempt and ask for a lock. That's all.

Now, I'm sure most of you want to know why I'm beating this dead horse. "It must be because he's an F7er, and he's got no sense in his head.", some will say. Others will ignore the above warning and simply start flaming me. That's not what I'm doing here, though. I want to talk about the POLITICAL side of abortion exclusively. You see, I approach this as a very odd individual, with some political views that, while they're not radical, depart severely from the "Party Lines". I am a social liberal, so one might expect that I would vote Democrat. But I'm also a Minarchist, and because I place economic issues far above social issues, I tend to vote Republican because of the asinine two-party system. As such, I find myself a Republican (of sorts...) who is pro-choice. And it leaves me thinking: why does the Republican Party fight against abortion? Why does ANYONE?

So, with that, I pose my question. And keep in mind, this is THE ONLY POINT OF DISCUSSION THAT IS RELEVANT IN THIS THREAD. My question for NSG is this:
-Why do you take your stance on abortion?
-What do you think is the motivation behind the various views on abortion?
-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?

I will add my own opinion later, but I've omitted it right now to prevent the coloring of the debate before it begins.

[1000 Cats]

-Why do you take your stance on abortion?

Because I observe every day families that would be better off if they did not have children, and the effects of these often doomed children on society. I observe the effects of overpopulation both on a local and indirectly on a global level. I also believe in freedom, and see no reason for an unwilling mother to not be given the freedom to terminate, with only the most minor of potential consequences, something that could make not only her life but the lives of many others in the long run far worse.

-What do you think is the motivation behind the various views on abortion?

The motivation for pro-life tends to be religious, or based on the idea that life on its own inherently has great importance. Also perhaps the belief that the above mentioned sociological problems are small or nonexistent.

-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?

No. There are a lot of things that a creature can have that makes it worthwhile, and all of these things are to do with how it has grown and gained experience and personality. A fetus has none of these things, so even if it was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is as conscious as I am, I would still have no issue with killing it. Only if the other above problems were solved would I concede that pro-life is a viable stance.

Heh heh, I tried. I don't think this thread is going to work, but hopefully there are less opinionated people than me around.

[Supremastan]

NOTE: the following statements apply mainly to The United States of America and are written from the perspective of someone having residence in The United States of America.

1. I take my stance on abortion because of adherence to the classical liberal ideas of non-interference in the personal activities of individuals that do not negatively impact the state
2. See above for primary pro-abortion rights argument. For anti-abortion and limited abortion rights we must look at the conservative philosophical basis, which sets out that preservation of the status quo is a matter of importance, and as the law in The United States of America traditionally forbade abortion we should preserve that standard. Additionally if one is a theist one could point such and such religious teaching forbidding abortion. There is the medical reason that abortion is sometimes more dangerous than giving birth and that in such cases we must have the women deliver rather than letting her risk injury but this argument can not be used by purist anti-abortion debaters. Additionally we must not ignore the argument that fetuses are sentient lifeforms and if they be sentient lifeforms must be protected under current law protecting sentient lifeforms.
3.Yes

I'll edit this post later if I want to.

[Ashmoria]

i "inherited" my opinion from my mother.

[New England and The Maritimes]

They hate women, and as such any issue in which they can deprive them of rights or safety is something they'll get behind.

[Auralia]

1. I believe that a fetus is a human being, and that all human beings have inherent value, regardless of stage of development. Thus, I am opposed to abortion, as well as a number of practices that harm the sanctity of life - capital punishment, euthanasia, eugenics, etc.

2. Many of those in favour of abortion argue that a child would, in many cases, be better off dead due to societal problems like poverty and crime. Others argue that it is ultimately the choice of the mother whether she wants to raise her child or not. Personally, I think both arguments become irrelevant if one accepts that a fetus is a human being; nobody can choose to kill someone else, except in self-defense, because otherwise it would be murder.

3. Because of the nature of my argument, no.

[Simon Cowell of the RR]

-Why do you take your stance on abortion?
I read up on the subject and drew the ultimate conclusion that I am in no place to decide what another does with her body.
-What do you think is the motivation behind the various views on abortion?
Brainwashing/conditioning on one end, careful intellectual consideration on the other
-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?
Not much, unless someone can demonstrate that an embryo is living (besides the classic, "science liez!")

[Ceannairceach]

-Why do you take your stance on abortion?
Because I value the rights of women to control their own body over the "rights" of a non-person fetus to abuse the woman.
-What do you think is the motivation behind the various views on abortion?
Religious, sociopolitical aspects and tradition, most likely.
-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?
Not likely.

[Auralia]

Brainwashing/conditioning on one end

I wouldn't call myself brainwashed; I've actually given abortion a great deal of thought.

It seems to me that the debate ultimately comes down to whether a fetus should be considered a human person. Biologically, I think that's impossible to deny:
1) A fetus is clearly human, given that it's the offspring of a human male and female.
2) A fetus differs from just an ordinary collection of human cells (like skin, for instance) because it is an individual human being. That is to say, you and I are technically just collections of human cells, but because as a whole we are separate individuals, and not just components of another being, we are considered discrete human beings.

Therefore, a fetus is an individual human being - I think that's sufficient to be treated as a person under the law.

[Astrolinium]

-Why do you take your stance on abortion?
Because I am a man and therefore have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body and who believes that a person is not a person until they're out of the womb.
-What do you think is the motivation behind the various views on abortion?
My view that I have no right to tell people who are different from me how to live. Also, what I've read about the science of the stuff.
-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?
If DEFINITIVE, CLEAR-CUT, IRREFUTABLE evidence came out that a fetus counted as a person in the same way that an adult woman does.

[Ceannairceach]

Brainwashing/conditioning on one end

I wouldn't call myself brainwashed; I've actually given abortion a great deal of thought.

So you have in no way been influenced to believe that fetuses are somehow more important than the mother?

[Ceannairceach]

-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?
If DEFINITIVE, CLEAR-CUT, IRREFUTABLE evidence came out that a fetus counted as a person in the same way that an adult woman does.

How should that matter? Its still abusing her body without her permission.

[Astrolinium]

-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?
If DEFINITIVE, CLEAR-CUT, IRREFUTABLE evidence came out that a fetus counted as a person in the same way that an adult woman does.

How should that matter? Its still abusing her body without her permission.

The idea is that it would have to convince me that the fetus is a being who deserves the same rights as the mother.
It isn't.

[Supremastan]

I wouldn't call myself brainwashed; I've actually given abortion a great deal of thought.

So you have in no way been influenced to believe that fetuses are somehow more important than the mother?

Stay On Topic, If you will.

[Ceannairceach]

2. Many of those in favour of abortion argue that a child would, in many cases, be better off dead due to societal problems like poverty and crime. Others argue that it is ultimately the choice of the mother whether she wants to raise her child or not. Personally, I think both arguments become irrelevant if one accepts that a fetus is a human being; nobody can choose to kill someone else, except in self-defense, because otherwise it would be murder.

You are forgetting, purposely or on accident, the argument of bodily sovereignty, my reason for supporting the right to choice; the woman has the absolute right to control her own body, and with that control comes permission of use. Contrary to apparent belief amongst pro-life advocates, consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy, as those women who pursue abortions or use birth control methods show quite clearly. Thus, it is unethical and against the right of women to control their own body to force them into a situation where they can't, ie, not allowing them to get an abortion.

That is my argument, not some silly thing about society.

[Auralia]

I wouldn't call myself brainwashed; I've actually given abortion a great deal of thought.

So you have in no way been influenced to believe that fetuses are somehow more important than the mother?

A fetus is not more important than the mother, just as I'm not more important than you. However, we don't have the right to kill each other, except in self-defense. I think the same applies in the former case as well.

[Auralia]

-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?
If DEFINITIVE, CLEAR-CUT, IRREFUTABLE evidence came out that a fetus counted as a person in the same way that an adult woman does.

How should that matter? Its still abusing her body without her permission.

Could you clarify your point? I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at...

[Ceannairceach]

So you have in no way been influenced to believe that fetuses are somehow more important than the mother?

Stay On Topic, If you will.

I fail to see what is off topic. The topic, as I understand it, is the arguments behind why we support abortion. I asked him if he at any point was influenced to believe, as I read it, that the fetus is more important than the mother, how I perceive his argument. What, precisely, is off topic?

[Ceannairceach]

How should that matter? Its still abusing her body without her permission.

Could you clarify your point? I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at...

So you have in no way been influenced to believe that fetuses are somehow more important than the mother?

A fetus is not more important than the mother, just as I'm not more important than you. However, we don't have the right to kill each other, except in self-defense. I think the same applies in the former case as well.

We do, however, have the right to bodily sovereignty, which is invaded by the fetus when it, without permission from the mother, occupies her womb. My argument is that the fetus is violating the right of the mother to control her own body, and thus, abortions must be made available if she wishes to remove it and not extend it the permission it assumes itself to retain.

Also, your point of "I'm not more important than you, nor you I" does not fit here. My argument is that women are entirely more important than nonsentient, non-person, nonthinking fetuses.

[Supremastan]

Stay On Topic, If you will.

I fail to see what is off topic. The topic, as I understand it, is the arguments behind why we support abortion. I asked him if he at any point was influenced to believe, as I read it, that the fetus is more important than the mother, how I perceive his argument. What, precisely, is off topic?

You are actively questioning the motivations behind his argument/his argument.

This thread is a place to make statements on the nature on arguments, not make debate on the arguments themselves.

[Simon Cowell of the RR]

So you have in no way been influenced to believe that fetuses are somehow more important than the mother?

A fetus is not more important than the mother, just as I'm not more important than you. However, we don't have the right to kill each other, except in self-defense. I think the same applies in the former case as well.

And, staying on topic, how did you draw this conclusion? What made you decide that a fetus is alive as opposed to, say, a tumor?

[Risottia]

-Why do you take your stance on abortion?

Concerns about personal freedom.

-What do you think is the motivation behind the various views on abortion?

I appeal to the Fifth to avoid posting strawmen about anti-choicers.

-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?

Uhm... yes. If it was proven that females have no personhood AND that foeti instead do... (well, male foeti at this point, of course)...

[Auralia]

-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?
Not much, unless someone can demonstrate that an embryo is living (besides the classic, "science liez!")

http://www.amazon.com/Developing-Human- ... pd_vtp_b_3

This is a reputable medical textbook that defines a zygote as "the beginning of a new human being."

[Astrolinium]

-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?
Not much, unless someone can demonstrate that an embryo is living (besides the classic, "science liez!")

http://www.amazon.com/Developing-Human- ... pd_vtp_b_3

This is a reputable medical textbook that defines a zygote as "the beginning of a new human being."

When one begins to construct a sculpture, does it already look like Michelangelo's David?

[Katganistan]

-Why do you take your stance on abortion?
I've seen too many high school age kids put themselves behind the eight ball, heard too many stories about children murdered by their parents or their parent's significant other, and know how damned many kids are in the foster/adoption system and who age out, never having had a family.

-What do you think is the motivation behind the various views on abortion?
I think there is a segment of our society that flat out enjoys feeling superior and lording it over those who are weak and can't defend themselves, and a significant number of misogynists who want to punish women for daring to have sex.

-Is there anything that would make you change your stance?
Nope. Raised religious and I can't think of any situation in which I personally would choose abortion, but I have a pretty significant support network, plus am at a point in my life where I am independent and mature enough to handle the responsibility. I cannot tell another person how to live her life -- her body belongs to her, her problems are her own, and how dare ANYONE try to punish/control/keep anyone else in an untenable position.