It's about time women are punished for false rape claims

[Hiddenrun]

I'm no expert, but I believe consentual sex leaves different marks on the body than forced rape. which is why getting checked out ASAP is rather important.

Ah but you're falling into the trap of believing all rape must inherently be physically violent. If you fuck a woman who is passed out, it's rape. You may not harm her at all, but it's rape, right? And not all women necessarily fight back, but it's been made clear that if she says 'no' it's still rape, even if there is no violence. Then again, some people like having consensual sex that leaves all sorts of horrid marks.

Physical evidence isn't enough.

Absence of consent. Yeah, that is rape. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Try reading the posts over again and grasping the context. We were talking about physical evidence.

Your own words. I already bolded them, so I underlined them, too.

Absence of consent. What evidence would you even accept, by the way? Video recordings?

You underlined and bolded my words but it appears you do did not read them.

If you fuck a woman who is passed out, it's rape.

I was using this to demonstrate how rape need not necessarily leave physical evidence.

I'm sure you wanted that to mean something else though. It's par for the course for you and the other liberals here.

[Intangelon]

I cannot believe you're comparing that to having actually been raped. You're playing your standard frat-rat insensitive prick routine a little too well tonight.

Tell me, do you know anyone who has been raped? Genuinely, I mean? Male or female, doesn't really matter. I feel very sorry for you if you do know someone who's been so assaulted and can spew that nonsense.

And I hope you've never met anyone who had to suffer the consequences of making a bad decision and sleeping with the wrong kind of person. Go ahead and tell someone who has had their career or marriage ruined by a false claim of rape that it's really not a big deal.

I'll tell it to him right to his face. It isn't, compared to rape.

And? Lots of crimes aren't as bad as rape. Robbery and burglery aren't as bad as rape. Doesn't mean that people who've been robbed at gun point should be told that it isn't a big deal compared to rape.

That's like walking up to a person who as cancer and telling him to his face "You have cancer. Guess what? It's better than having AIDS. Have you thought of that, Mr. Important? You have Chemo for your cancer. What does the AIDS crowd have? Nothing! All they have are drugs that make their worsening lives last longer, but nothing's going to get rid of the AIDS. NOTHING! So shut up and deal with your cancer, asshole!"

Uh...okay. Missed the point...completely...but okay.

I was talking about a false allegation versus actually being raped, but hey.

[Barzan]

Crying rape should be treated as the crime it is. I only hope that from now on, when a woman falsely cries rape, she not only faces criminal sanctions, but a hefty civil suit from the man whose name she's dragged through the mud.

Damn straight. This is one thing I'll agree with you on, Hiddenrun. If a guy is even accused of rape, regardless of whether he's been convicted, it ruins his life. Just the mere accusation is so incredibly detrimental.

[Dakini]

I cannot believe you're comparing that to having actually been raped. You're playing your standard frat-rat insensitive prick routine a little too well tonight.

Tell me, do you know anyone who has been raped? Genuinely, I mean? Male or female, doesn't really matter. I feel very sorry for you if you do know someone who's been so assaulted and can spew that nonsense.

And I hope you've never met anyone who had to suffer the consequences of making a bad decision and sleeping with the wrong kind of person. Go ahead and tell someone who has had their career or marriage ruined by a false claim of rape that it's really not a big deal.

I'll tell it to him right to his face. It isn't, compared to rape.

And? Lots of crimes aren't as bad as rape. Robbery and burglery aren't as bad as rape. Doesn't mean that people who've been robbed at gun point should be told that it isn't a big deal compared to rape.

That's like walking up to a person who as cancer and telling him to his face "You have cancer. Guess what? It's better than having AIDS. Have you thought of that, Mr. Important? You have Chemo for your cancer. What does the AIDS crowd have? Nothing! All they have are drugs that make their worsening lives last longer, but nothing's going to get rid of the AIDS. NOTHING! So shut up and deal with your cancer, asshole!"

Based on snippets that others have quoted... he seems to have implied that false rape accusations should result in the same amount of jail time as a rape conviction. Nobody is saying that a person who burgles houses and does not physically harm anyone shouldn't be punished at all, but it is a lesser crime than rape, as is filing a false police report.

[Hiddenrun]

now, are you talking rape in general or just "people who make up rape stories for X reason"? your whole OP was exploring the possiblity of more punishment for those making up rape cases. which is the focus. rape in general or only those who is proven to falsely accuse others of rape?

It's been hard to focus, what with Grave n. Idle et al. conflating real rape with false rape.

My focus is on those who have falsely accused others of rape. Because absence of physical evidence does not rule out rape, and the presence of physical evidence may not be due to rape, the entire issue of physical evidence is problematic. I only commented on this at all because you brought the issue of physical evidence up.

[Intangelon]

I'm no expert, but I believe consentual sex leaves different marks on the body than forced rape. which is why getting checked out ASAP is rather important.

Ah but you're falling into the trap of believing all rape must inherently be physically violent. If you fuck a woman who is passed out, it's rape. You may not harm her at all, but it's rape, right? And not all women necessarily fight back, but it's been made clear that if she says 'no' it's still rape, even if there is no violence. Then again, some people like having consensual sex that leaves all sorts of horrid marks.

Physical evidence isn't enough.

Absence of consent. Yeah, that is rape. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Try reading the posts over again and grasping the context. We were talking about physical evidence.

Your own words. I already bolded them, so I underlined them, too.

Absence of consent. What evidence would you even accept, by the way? Video recordings?

You underlined and bolded my words but it appears you do did not read them.

If you fuck a woman who is passed out, it's rape.

I was using this to demonstrate how rape need not necessarily leave physical evidence.

I'm sure you wanted that to mean something else though. It's par for the course for you and the other liberals here.

You got me there -- I apologize for misreading. I blew it.

But what evidence would you accept? Someone passed out and being assaulted might not have marks from violence, but she'd still have the evidence rape-kits can pick up: semen, slight vaginal tearing that always happens regardless of how gentle one might try to be, etc.

[Ryadn]

Unless the woman is actually seriously injured during the assault, you cannot claim that rape is so incredibly worse than what happens to someone who is falsely accused of rape. Men have lost their jobs, their livelihoods, their families, their standing in the community because of false allegations. You honestly think that rape is so much worse than that?

Yes, I do--but then, I endorse the radical notion that women are people.

Ah, and men are not.

Nice to see gender equity at work.

Stuff a little more straw in there.

I believe raping a man is incredibly worse than a man falsely accusing another person of rape. Rape is not inherently gendered--anyone can be raped, and anyone can be accused of rape, falsely or otherwise.

[Hiddenrun]

How is it determined that a person lied about being raped except through their own admission?

Also, it just occurred to me that this entire thread goes along with the premise that only women are raped.

Yes well I doubt you get many men falsely claiming that women raped them.

In one of the cases I linked to, police were able to determine that the woman was lying about her ex husband raping her because he tapped his own phones, and had a recording of her bragging about how she'd injured herself so she could make the claim and get custody of their children.

Now that would be a pretty extraordinary situation. That kind of proof would be difficult to come by. Video surveillance was used in another of the linked cases where a woman cried rape to access a victim's compensation fund. Again, a rare situation.

[Ryadn]

But, what's the difference? A man accused of rape can have his name cleared. A woman actually raped - stays raped.

but would a woman who gave a false rape report* actually be raped?

*note: false report. not "mistaken identity" or rapist found not guilty.

careful, he might find you worthy of talking to, which apparently also means worthy of pissing on.

I've 'conversed' with GnI before. and I find his PoV (as well as others... including yours) refreshing.

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

Remind you of anyone in particular?

[Intangelon]

Crying rape should be treated as the crime it is. I only hope that from now on, when a woman falsely cries rape, she not only faces criminal sanctions, but a hefty civil suit from the man whose name she's dragged through the mud.

Damn straight. This is one thing I'll agree with you on, Hiddenrun. If a guy is even accused of rape, regardless of whether he's been convicted, it ruins his life. Just the mere accusation is so incredibly detrimental.

Bullshit.

If the charges are shown to be spurious, the only people who "ruin his life" are assholes I wouldn't trust in the first place. In fact, something is nagging my consciousness about how it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of someone's record at all, let alone if the record is expunged or the charges shown to be false. Anyone know that? *tries summoning Neo Art*

[Saint Jade IV]

Just because a man is found not guilty of rape does not mean that he is innocent. Furthermore, considering the abysmal way that rape victims are treated by our court system, police and media, I really don't feel that sorry for the unlucky men who fall into the less than 2% of falsely reported rapes.

Many times, a woman is accused of falsely reporting a rape because she happened to be intoxicated at the time of the offence, she was dressed in a manner that certain people find inappropriate, or she happened to have a healthy sex life. When the abhorrent myths that surround rape in the general community are derided by the community at large, then I will be more comfortable with advocating for harsh punishments. But while rapists are walking free due to societal attitudes towards victims and the "They were asking for it" mentality, I fear that women will be further traumatised by being punished twice for challenging society's rules and strictures on what constitutes acceptable womanly behaviour.

That being said, naturally women who are proved to have falsely reported rapes should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I just think at this juncture, society will find it difficult to distinguish between those who falsely report, and those who they think "deserved" the infliction of this degrading act through daring to exercise their rights.

[Hiddenrun]

But if the allegations are false, and admitted to be so, where's the damage? Anyone who doesn't believe that the person withdrawing the charge is sincere after she withdraws the charge needs to accept reality. It's not much different from being falsely accused of much of anything in some people's eyes. There'll always be suspicious people. Then again, there'll always be people who excel at being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is not the curse you're making it out to be. Not to people who think.

You're assuming the allegations are withdrawn before the issue goes to court, or before the man is held for however many hours for questioning, or before he ends up sitting in jail, or even worse, ending up beaten or murdered by an angry friend or family member of the 'victim'.

You're assuming his wife didn't leave him, that he didn't lose his job, or that no one really thought anything bad about him at all because of the allegations. You're assuming that the charges being withdrawn will magically fix it all.

[Ryadn]

Crying rape should be treated as the crime it is. I only hope that from now on, when a woman falsely cries rape, she not only faces criminal sanctions, but a hefty civil suit from the man whose name she's dragged through the mud.

Damn straight. This is one thing I'll agree with you on, Hiddenrun. If a guy is even accused of rape, regardless of whether he's been convicted, it ruins his life. Just the mere accusation is so incredibly detrimental.

That's utter bull. Hell, there are times when men are accused of rape and the evidence is simply inconclusive, not exonerating, and the person who brought charges often faces just as much of a backlash as the accused.

[Hiddenrun]

Based on snippets that others have quoted... he seems to have implied that false rape accusations should result in the same amount of jail time as a rape conviction. Nobody is saying that a person who burgles houses and does not physically harm anyone shouldn't be punished at all, but it is a lesser crime than rape, as is filing a false police report.

Oh for fuck's sake, can you even aspire to a little intellectual honesty?

"Seems to have implied"!?

SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THAT I BELIEVE FALSE RAPE ACCUSATIONS SHOULD RESULT IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF JAIL TIME AS A RAPE CONVICTION. Lord. If you're going to make something up, at least TRY to tether it in reality.

[JuNii]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

maybe it is. but it does bring up one interesting point.

the fact that those falsely accused are harmed by the accusation and that they too are victims.

as long as we focus on the rare case of the proven false accusations, then it can become an intersting topic.

[Hiddenrun]

You got me there -- I apologize for misreading. I blew it.

But what evidence would you accept? Someone passed out and being assaulted might not have marks from violence, but she'd still have the evidence rape-kits can pick up: semen, slight vaginal tearing that always happens regardless of how gentle one might try to be, etc.

We're talking real rape here, not false rape, right? I'm not really debating the issue of rape, or evidence of rape. I have issues with certain things being defined as rape, but my issues are not evidentiary in nature. Excuse me for being reluctant to enter into that debate here, what with my stance being completely misrepresented by a few people here.

And thank you for having the decency to recognize that you read things incorrectly. I appreciate it.

[Poliwanacraca]

Just because a man is found not guilty of rape does not mean that he is innocent. Furthermore, considering the abysmal way that rape victims are treated by our court system, police and media, I really don't feel that sorry for the unlucky men who fall into the less than 2% of falsely reported rapes.

Many times, a woman is accused of falsely reporting a rape because she happened to be intoxicated at the time of the offence, she was dressed in a manner that certain people find inappropriate, or she happened to have a healthy sex life. When the abhorrent myths that surround rape in the general community are derided by the community at large, then I will be more comfortable with advocating for harsh punishments. But while rapists are walking free due to societal attitudes towards victims and the "They were asking for it" mentality, I fear that women will be further traumatised by being punished twice for challenging society's rules and strictures on what constitutes acceptable womanly behaviour.

That being said, naturally women who are proved to have falsely reported rapes should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I just think at this juncture, society will find it difficult to distinguish between those who falsely report, and those who they think "deserved" the infliction of this degrading act through daring to exercise their rights.

^ This pretty much nailed it.

I will say, I certainly sympathize with anyone falsely accused of a crime. I'm sure it's very unpleasant. The idea that it is even faintly comparable to being raped, however, is ridiculous and offensive, as I'm quite certain the OP knows.

[Barzan]

Crying rape should be treated as the crime it is. I only hope that from now on, when a woman falsely cries rape, she not only faces criminal sanctions, but a hefty civil suit from the man whose name she's dragged through the mud.

Damn straight. This is one thing I'll agree with you on, Hiddenrun. If a guy is even accused of rape, regardless of whether he's been convicted, it ruins his life. Just the mere accusation is so incredibly detrimental.

Bullshit.

If the charges are shown to be spurious, the only people who "ruin his life" are assholes I wouldn't trust in the first place. In fact, something is nagging my consciousness about how it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of someone's record at all, let alone if the record is expunged or the charges shown to be false. Anyone know that? *tries summoning Neo Art*

I'm not talking about a criminal record, I'm talking about the social effects. Trials drag on for years. Neighbours will shun him, bosses will fire him. Not for being accused of rape, mind you, but I'm sure he's not perfect, and therefore subject to dismissal or "downsizing". Sure it's illegal to discriminate, but that doesn't stop vigilantes from shooting homosexuals does it? Ever hear of fanatics killing people because they "thought" they had done something even though they were later acquitted? Regardless, family ties, neighbours, business contacts -- al seem to "lose touch" or "become too busy".

EDIT for spelling

[Dakini]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

maybe it is. but it does bring up one interesting point.

the fact that those falsely accused are harmed by the accusation and that they too are victims.

as long as we focus on the rare case of the proven false accusations, then it can become an intersting topic.

But it's already a crime to file a false police report. This isn't anything new.

[Barzan]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

maybe it is. but it does bring up one interesting point.

the fact that those falsely accused are harmed by the accusation and that they too are victims.

as long as we focus on the rare case of the proven false accusations, then it can become an intersting topic.

But it's already a crime to file a false police report. This isn't anything new.

Indeed, but filing a false police report accusing a kid of vandalism doesn't carry the same stigma against the accused as does a rape claim.

[Non Aligned States]

Unless the woman is actually seriously injured during the assault, you cannot claim that rape is so incredibly worse than what happens to someone who is falsely accused of rape. Men have lost their jobs, their livelihoods, their families, their standing in the community because of false allegations. You honestly think that rape is so much worse than that?

Since we're on the topic of false accusations of horrible crimes, what do you think should be done about people who accuse others of being Nazis, wanting to kill their parents and any other number of patently false claims hmm? The accused might lose their jobs, livelihoods and upstanding in the community because of the above mentioned false allegations, and in one case, their life because the murderer believed the accusations and saw himself as a vigilante.

Should they too be punished? I look forward to your answer.

[Poliwanacraca]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

maybe it is. but it does bring up one interesting point.

the fact that those falsely accused are harmed by the accusation and that they too are victims.

as long as we focus on the rare case of the proven false accusations, then it can become an intersting topic.

Not really. It should then be treated the exact same way as falsely accusing someone of any other crime. They can absolutely be prosecuted for filing a false police report, and they can absolutely be sued by the falsely accused in civil court. I see no reason whatsoever to single out rape accusations as some sort of special case except to guarantee that even fewer rapes will be reported, since that will be one more thing for victims to be afraid of - which hardly seems like an admirable goal.

[Hiddenrun]

Bullshit.

If the charges are shown to be spurious, the only people who "ruin his life" are assholes I wouldn't trust in the first place. In fact, something is nagging my consciousness about how it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of someone's record at all, let alone if the record is expunged or the charges shown to be false. Anyone know that? *tries summoning Neo Art*

Yes, but the whole reason we have any sorts of human rights regime at all is to deal with discrimination that isn't overt. No smart employer is going to say, "I'm not going to keep you on because someone accused you of rape". No, you'll be let go because the company is 'downsizing'.

Although in certain cases, depending on your profession, I am certain it's 100% legal to remove a 'potential threat' from an employed position, ie, someone working with children, or women at risk etc, even if the charges aren't proven yet.

And imagine if you were married to someone accused of rape. Imagine what that would do to your marriage, even if you believed it didn't happen. The suspicion, the worrying about infidelity, etc etc. I don't think your family would set out to assholishly ruin your life, but considering how horrible the charge of rape is, I don't see how even the most stand-by-you family would avoid some serious strife. That kind of stress is no laughing matter.

[Dakini]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

maybe it is. but it does bring up one interesting point.

the fact that those falsely accused are harmed by the accusation and that they too are victims.

as long as we focus on the rare case of the proven false accusations, then it can become an intersting topic.

But it's already a crime to file a false police report. This isn't anything new.

Indeed, but filing a false police report accusing a kid of vandalism doesn't carry the same stigma against the accused as does a rape claim.

I refer you to Poli's post. She said it much better than I could.

[JuNii]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

maybe it is. but it does bring up one interesting point.

the fact that those falsely accused are harmed by the accusation and that they too are victims.

as long as we focus on the rare case of the proven false accusations, then it can become an intersting topic.

But it's already a crime to file a false police report. This isn't anything new.

true, but the stigma of being accused is still damaging. which is why I'm not pushing for those who purposely falsely accuses someone to be punished by jail time or anything 'severe', but a televised, public apology with the admission that the person was falsely accused should help remove the stigmata faster.