It's about time women are punished for false rape claims

[Hiddenrun]

No, I'm sorry -- the issue is you trying to be belligerently controversial in your faux-manly style. If you were genuinely concerned about the issue, you'd not use such patently inflammatory language to make your points and respond to some of the suggestions. Instead, you're bringing up the tired and worn-out "drunk" or "dick-tease" arguments. I suspect next we'll see the "she was askin' for it" defense.

And you're falling back on the tired, 'women are never responsible for their own actions' crap.

[Ryadn]

Whatever the punishment is for making a false accusation, plus defense costs (or jail time if those fees cannot be covered by the accuser -- which would be a deterrent to those seeking monetary gain from a false accusation).

In short, you're hinting that you want something more severe than the actual punishment, and I'll be glad to agree with covering the defensive legal fees of the accused. Anything more is out of proportion. Then the accused should have an open and shut slander/libel case as well. Seems to me the punishment pretty much fits the crime already, save for the addition of monetary claims for defense already mentioned.

I think it's fair, Hiddenrun, to ask what you would like to see. I have an idea, but I'd like to see your own take.

I believe I've already stated what I'd like to see. Criminal charges (filing a false claim, interfering with an investigation, whatever), and a civil suit for damages.

The problem is, most of these women probably won't really have any assets to satisfy a judgment in a civil suit. Having a portion of their wages garnished for a few years though, might send the message that you'd better be fucking serious when you cry rape.

Filing a false claim is already a prosecutable charge, as evidenced by your own citations.

A civil suit is brought by the individual. I am unaware of any law forbidding the victim of a false allegation from bringing a civil suit.

Rapists don't have their wages garnished when they're let out of prison.

[Dakini]

I'm no expert, but I believe consentual sex leaves different marks on the body than forced rape. which is why getting checked out ASAP is rather important.

It depends... there are different characteristic marks (as far as I know) but it could also be that it was consensual and rough and appear like rape (or rape could be passed off as consensual rough sex). Or it could be that she was sedated and it does not look like rape necessarily. Or she could have been blackmailed into it or figured that if she didn't struggle after asking for those activities to cease and being ignored that it would be over faster and with less pain.

I'm not an expert either, but this is what I've heard.

[Intangelon]

I cannot believe you're comparing that to having actually been raped. You're playing your standard frat-rat insensitive prick routine a little too well tonight.

Tell me, do you know anyone who has been raped? Genuinely, I mean? Male or female, doesn't really matter. I feel very sorry for you if you do know someone who's been so assaulted and can spew that nonsense.

And I hope you've never met anyone who had to suffer the consequences of making a bad decision and sleeping with the wrong kind of person. Go ahead and tell someone who has had their career or marriage ruined by a false claim of rape that it's really not a big deal.

I'll tell it to him right to his face. It isn't, compared to rape.

[Hiddenrun]

Unless the woman is actually seriously injured during the assault, you cannot claim that rape is so incredibly worse than what happens to someone who is falsely accused of rape. Men have lost their jobs, their livelihoods, their families, their standing in the community because of false allegations. You honestly think that rape is so much worse than that?

Yes, I do--but then, I endorse the radical notion that women are people.

Ah, and men are not.

Nice to see gender equity at work.

[JuNii]

But, what's the difference? A man accused of rape can have his name cleared. A woman actually raped - stays raped.

but would a woman who gave a false rape report* actually be raped?

*note: false report. not "mistaken identity" or rapist found not guilty.

careful, he might find you worthy of talking to, which apparently also means worthy of pissing on.

I've 'conversed' with GnI before. and I find his PoV (as well as others... including yours) refreshing.

[Intangelon]

I'm no expert, but I believe consentual sex leaves different marks on the body than forced rape. which is why getting checked out ASAP is rather important.

Ah but you're falling into the trap of believing all rape must inherently be physically violent. If you fuck a woman who is passed out, it's rape. You may not harm her at all, but it's rape, right? And not all women necessarily fight back, but it's been made clear that if she says 'no' it's still rape, even if there is no violence. Then again, some people like having consensual sex that leaves all sorts of horrid marks.

Physical evidence isn't enough.

Absence of consent. Yeah, that is rape. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

[Dakini]

filing a false rape claim is illegal.

however, there is the fact that the reputation of the accused is tarnished. perhaps a mandatory public apology as well as payment for legal fees?

infact, that should be tacked on for any false accusation...

How do you determine whether it's a false accusation? The accused being found "not guilty" doesn't mean that he a) didn't commit the rape (a crime which often comes down to a "he said/she said" issue, in which case, why should the woman have to apologize or pay legal fees?) or b) that she wasn't raped. Not all rape victims necessarily point to an accused, sometimes other evidence found by the police does this. Should the woman be charged with a false claim if the police gather evidence that indicates she was raped by Mr X if Mr X is found not guilty?

I can only see this being useful if she later admits that the claim was invented. Otherwise it just punished rape victims. Rape is notoriously poorly reported as it is, we don't need another reason for victims to keep quiet.

For the record, I've said that fees should be paid if the allegation is indeed false. Being acquitted doesn't mean the allegations were false, as you've said. I'm talking about when a "victim" owns up to making up the charges outright.

Well, that's fine... especially since it's already illegal to file a false police report. Whether you claim that person X raped you, beat you or stole from you when you know they didn't, it's all the same crime on your part.

[Hiddenrun]

I'll tell it to him right to his face. It isn't, compared to rape.

Which is a bullshit comparison in the first place since there was no rape.

[Intangelon]

No, I'm sorry -- the issue is you trying to be belligerently controversial in your faux-manly style. If you were genuinely concerned about the issue, you'd not use such patently inflammatory language to make your points and respond to some of the suggestions. Instead, you're bringing up the tired and worn-out "drunk" or "dick-tease" arguments. I suspect next we'll see the "she was askin' for it" defense.

And you're falling back on the tired, 'women are never responsible for their own actions' crap.

I am? That's odd, I don't recall saying that. In fact, my first post in this now-benighted thread of yours was a suggestion that those making false allegations not only suffer the penalties already assigned to that crime, but cover the defense's costs as well.

See, the difference here is that I have your own words to hang you with. You seem to need to invent mine.

[Ryadn]

So, given the choice of being raped, or being accused of it - you would choose to be the victim of the violent sexual attack?

I have to ask... because you didn't really answer.

Oh now it has to be violent?

I thought rape could include saying 'no' during the middle of consensual sex?

Stop it! Stop sucking my cock, you're raping me!

And if she continued, that would be rape. But that's not really what you're arguing at all.

[Hiddenrun]

I'm no expert, but I believe consentual sex leaves different marks on the body than forced rape. which is why getting checked out ASAP is rather important.

Ah but you're falling into the trap of believing all rape must inherently be physically violent. If you fuck a woman who is passed out, it's rape. You may not harm her at all, but it's rape, right? And not all women necessarily fight back, but it's been made clear that if she says 'no' it's still rape, even if there is no violence. Then again, some people like having consensual sex that leaves all sorts of horrid marks.

Physical evidence isn't enough.

Absence of consent. Yeah, that is rape. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Try reading the posts over again and grasping the context. We were talking about physical evidence.

[Grave_n_idle]

But, what's the difference? A man accused of rape can have his name cleared. A woman actually raped - stays raped.

but would a woman who gave a false rape report* actually be raped?

*note: false report. not "mistaken identity" or rapist found not guilty.

careful, he might find you worthy of talking to, which apparently also means worthy of pissing on.

I've 'conversed' with GnI before. and I find his PoV (as well as others... including yours) refreshing.

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

[NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ]

The idea that adult women who get blasted cannot give consent to sex despite their intention to get drunk and fuck(ie, every drunk-out-of-her-mind woman at the clubs) is taking things waaay too far.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry

[Hiddenrun]

Well, that's fine... especially since it's already illegal to file a false police report. Whether you claim that person X raped you, beat you or stole from you when you know they didn't, it's all the same crime on your part.

But being accused of rape is much more serious and potentially damaging than being accused of robbing someone or whatever. There's a reason that rapists are segregated from the general population in jail, while robbers are not.

[Intangelon]

I'll tell it to him right to his face. It isn't, compared to rape.

Which is a bullshit comparison in the first place since there was no rape.

And yet, he's not suffering from the trauma. Remember, you're trying to compare the actual victims here, not the victim of a false accusation versus a woman who made them but wasn't raped.

You lose. Rape is worse.

[JuNii]

filing a false rape claim is illegal.

however, there is the fact that the reputation of the accused is tarnished. perhaps a mandatory public apology as well as payment for legal fees?

infact, that should be tacked on for any false accusation...

How do you determine whether it's a false accusation? The accused being found "not guilty" doesn't mean that he a) didn't commit the rape (a crime which often comes down to a "he said/she said" issue, in which case, why should the woman have to apologize or pay legal fees?) or b) that she wasn't raped. Not all rape victims necessarily point to an accused, sometimes other evidence found by the police does this. Should the woman be charged with a false claim if the police gather evidence that indicates she was raped by Mr X if Mr X is found not guilty?

I can only see this being useful if she later admits that the claim was invented. Otherwise it just punished rape victims. Rape is notoriously poorly reported as it is, we don't need another reason for victims to keep quiet.

Just because someone is found 'not guilty' doesn't mean that person is 'innocent'. however, in the rare case where it's determined that the 'victim' actually lied about being raped... which is why I stated 'false accusation' and not "the accused being found 'not guilty'".

[Intangelon]

I'm no expert, but I believe consentual sex leaves different marks on the body than forced rape. which is why getting checked out ASAP is rather important.

Ah but you're falling into the trap of believing all rape must inherently be physically violent. If you fuck a woman who is passed out, it's rape. You may not harm her at all, but it's rape, right? And not all women necessarily fight back, but it's been made clear that if she says 'no' it's still rape, even if there is no violence. Then again, some people like having consensual sex that leaves all sorts of horrid marks.

Physical evidence isn't enough.

Absence of consent. Yeah, that is rape. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

Try reading the posts over again and grasping the context. We were talking about physical evidence.

Your own words. I already bolded them, so I underlined them, too.

Absence of consent. What evidence would you even accept, by the way? Video recordings?

[Hiddenrun]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

Right, right. The fact that I'm trying to answer all the posts directed to me, the fact that I keep putting up with your bullshit 'oh you're a troll' posts in order to address your actual points; all of that indicates that I'm a troll who doesn't want to debate.

If you folks spent even half the time on debate as you do on accusing people of trolling, it might be possible to have a conversation around here. Instead you pratter on about strawmen as though you aren't in the midst of constructing one yourself, all in an attempt to dismiss opinions you don't like.

[JuNii]

I'm no expert, but I believe consentual sex leaves different marks on the body than forced rape. which is why getting checked out ASAP is rather important.

Ah but you're falling into the trap of believing all rape must inherently be physically violent. If you fuck a woman who is passed out, it's rape. You may not harm her at all, but it's rape, right? And not all women necessarily fight back, but it's been made clear that if she says 'no' it's still rape, even if there is no violence. Then again, some people like having consensual sex that leaves all sorts of horrid marks.

Physical evidence isn't enough.

now, are you talking rape in general or just "people who make up rape stories for X reason"? your whole OP was exploring the possiblity of more punishment for those making up rape cases. which is the focus. rape in general or only those who is proven to falsely accuse others of rape?

[Dakini]

filing a false rape claim is illegal.

however, there is the fact that the reputation of the accused is tarnished. perhaps a mandatory public apology as well as payment for legal fees?

infact, that should be tacked on for any false accusation...

How do you determine whether it's a false accusation? The accused being found "not guilty" doesn't mean that he a) didn't commit the rape (a crime which often comes down to a "he said/she said" issue, in which case, why should the woman have to apologize or pay legal fees?) or b) that she wasn't raped. Not all rape victims necessarily point to an accused, sometimes other evidence found by the police does this. Should the woman be charged with a false claim if the police gather evidence that indicates she was raped by Mr X if Mr X is found not guilty?

I can only see this being useful if she later admits that the claim was invented. Otherwise it just punished rape victims. Rape is notoriously poorly reported as it is, we don't need another reason for victims to keep quiet.

Just because someone is found 'not guilty' doesn't mean that person is 'innocent'. however, in the rare case where it's determined that the 'victim' actually lied about being raped... which is why I stated 'false accusation' and not "the accused being found 'not guilty'".

How is it determined that a person lied about being raped except through their own admission?

Also, it just occurred to me that this entire thread goes along with the premise that only women are raped.

[Intangelon]

Well, that's fine... especially since it's already illegal to file a false police report. Whether you claim that person X raped you, beat you or stole from you when you know they didn't, it's all the same crime on your part.

But being accused of rape is much more serious and potentially damaging than being accused of robbing someone or whatever. There's a reason that rapists are segregated from the general population in jail, while robbers are not.

But if the allegations are false, and admitted to be so, where's the damage? Anyone who doesn't believe that the person withdrawing the charge is sincere after she withdraws the charge needs to accept reality. It's not much different from being falsely accused of much of anything in some people's eyes. There'll always be suspicious people. Then again, there'll always be people who excel at being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is not the curse you're making it out to be. Not to people who think.

[Hiddenrun]

And yet, he's not suffering from the trauma. Remember, you're trying to compare the actual victims here, not the victim of a false accusation versus a woman who made them but wasn't raped.

You lose. Rape is worse.

No, that was actually Grave n. Idle's bullshit comparison, sorry.

[Intangelon]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

Right, right. The fact that I'm trying to answer all the posts directed to me, the fact that I keep putting up with your bullshit 'oh you're a troll' posts in order to address your actual points; all of that indicates that I'm a troll who doesn't want to debate.

If you folks spent even half the time on debate as you do on accusing people of trolling, it might be possible to have a conversation around here. Instead you pratter on about strawmen as though you aren't in the midst of constructing one yourself, all in an attempt to dismiss opinions you don't like.

Once again, you've conflated "don't like" with "laughably inaccurate".

[Hoyteca]

I cannot believe you're comparing that to having actually been raped. You're playing your standard frat-rat insensitive prick routine a little too well tonight.

Tell me, do you know anyone who has been raped? Genuinely, I mean? Male or female, doesn't really matter. I feel very sorry for you if you do know someone who's been so assaulted and can spew that nonsense.

And I hope you've never met anyone who had to suffer the consequences of making a bad decision and sleeping with the wrong kind of person. Go ahead and tell someone who has had their career or marriage ruined by a false claim of rape that it's really not a big deal.

I'll tell it to him right to his face. It isn't, compared to rape.

And? Lots of crimes aren't as bad as rape. Robbery and burglery aren't as bad as rape. Doesn't mean that people who've been robbed at gun point should be told that it isn't a big deal compared to rape.

That's like walking up to a person who as cancer and telling him to his face "You have cancer. Guess what? It's better than having AIDS. Have you thought of that, Mr. Important? You have Chemo for your cancer. What does the AIDS crowd have? Nothing! All they have are drugs that make their worsening lives last longer, but nothing's going to get rid of the AIDS. NOTHING! So shut up and deal with your cancer, asshole!"