It's about time women are punished for false rape claims

[Intangelon]

From the other rape thread, where I posted this a day or so back:

Statistics from countries like the US and the UK suggest that only about 15-20% of rapes are ever reported. Of those that are reported, less than ONE IN FIVE will end up in court. Of those that end up in court, between 5-10% will result in a conviction.

Or, to put it another way, for an actual rapist, there is an 85% chance that he will never be investigated at all. There is a 12% chance he will be questioned but the investigation will never make it as far as formal charges or court. There is only a 3% chance that he will have to buy a suit and hire a lawyer to deal with a court case. And even for the poor guys in that 3%, there's a 90% chance they'll be found Not Guilty.

Or, to put it yet another way, for every 1,000 girls and women who are raped, less than 10 will ever see their rapist do time.

Meanwhile, the false reporting rate for rape is about 2-8%. (http://www.ndaa.org/publications/newsle ... 1_2009.pdf) And that includes cases where the victim makes an incorrect ID or similar error, and thus doesn't mean that all those case were situations where somebody intentionally lied about having been raped or about who raped them.

Another way for you to look at it is this:

Each year, in the USA, there are about 5-6 rapes reported per 10,000 people. Even if we assume that HALF of these reports are false (which is almost 10 times the actual rates), that means that you've got less than 0.03% chance of being falsely accused of rape each year. And if that 0.03% chance does happen to strike, you have only about a 20% chance of even seeing the inside of a courtroom.

Meanwhile, one in three women in America has been raped. Do you know at least three women?


Forgive me for laughing my ass off at the transparent, cowardly freak-out by guys who claim that THEM BITCHEZ IS ALWAYS LYING ABOUT RAPE. No, they're not. In fact, assuming you're not a rapist, your odds of being falsely accused of rape aren't any higher than your odds of being falsely accused of any other violent crime. But for some reason, golly I wonder what it could possibly be, it's always this fear of tricksy lying womenzes that surfaces with a certain type of guy.

And that's the thread.



Well researched, well said.

[Hiddenrun]

Having had experience dealing with Hiddenrun in the past, I can tell you that his intent was to get exactly the response he got. He's angry at women, for any of a dozen possible reasons (most of which have been speculated about in the past), and he likes posting things that he thinks will make women angry back. He's been reported for flame-baiting before, so he's gotten more careful about posting topics that genuinely count as topics.

I've been accused of flame-baiting because people like you went out of your way to mischaracterize my points, and run off to Moderation to cry about it. You and others like you got your panties in a twist, and I was warned to tone it down. You'll note that people just like you have also been warned to stop derailing my threads with personal attacks. Having had experience with your particular brand of flaming and pseudo-psychoanalysis, I am completely unsurprised by your behavior in this thread, but I note you've now shifted away from flaming me directly, to making comments about me to other people. Clever girl.

All of this to say, hi kettle, I'm pot, we're black.

[Bottle]

There are already laws on the books for falsely reporting a crime, rape included. What reason would you increase the punishment? For revenge? That's not how the justice system works. For a deterrence? Deterrence is very ineffective when dealing with the criminal mind. Who would commit a crime if they thought they would get caught? Increasing the punishment would not stop the majority of false accusations, and would most likely discourage actual rape victims from reporting their rape, as rape is already a highly underreported crime.

Perhaps a community support group could be started to help the falsely accused regain their status in society.

Also, most posts have emphasized gender (female) when referring to the accuser of a false rape. The punishment should be the same for male as well as female offenders.

The false accusation laws are almost never enforced on rape accusers.

Source?

No no, he's right. Most rape accusers don't get prosecuted for false accusations.

Because most aren't lying.

[Vojvodina-Nihon]

No, I was just trying to understand what was the point behind this thread.

I mean, if women frequently did lie about rape purely in order to ruin the life of the accused, and never got punished for it, I could see a reason to deplore the current situation. Since that's not happening, though, I can't understand exactly why you felt the need to talk about it.

It's happening frequently enough that google brings up quite a few recent cases. Current cases. It's a current issue. We talk about current issues on NSG. Unless, apparently, it bothers some people. Then it's not a current issue, it's some sort of conspirarcy. :eyebrow:

It's a current issue, yes. What is there to discuss, though? "I think people who make false reports to the police should be punished." "I agree!" "Well, I think they should be punished harder." I mean, even other "pointless" threads like "What's your favourite colour?" get more legitimate discussion than this.

and I can't understand why it has sparked heated debate. (Moreover, considering that only about 8% -- or whatever number Bottle posted earlier -- of reports of rape are false, and maybe a quarter of those are deliberate, malicious falsehood, it seems an awfully inconsequential issue in the greater scheme of things.)

Yes, well, we talk about false convictions all the time, but that's awfully inconsequential in the greater scheme of things too, isn't it?

I would say even a false conviction is worse than a false accusation, but even in threads like that, there's never much to discuss, so I stay out of them.

Again, I was commenting on a recent trend I'd seen in the news. That sort of thing goes on here all the time. Just look at Hairless Kitten's constant topics. Are you telling her that she shouldn't be bringing up stuff since somewhere in the world, people are being oppressed?

I don't know, I don't read any of Hairless Kitten's topics.

[Taeshan]

Having had experience dealing with Hiddenrun in the past, I can tell you that his intent was to get exactly the response he got. He's angry at women, for any of a dozen possible reasons (most of which have been speculated about in the past), and he likes posting things that he thinks will make women angry back. He's been reported for flame-baiting before, so he's gotten more careful about posting topics that genuinely count as topics.

I've been accused of flame-baiting because people like you went out of your way to mischaracterize my points, and run off to Moderation to cry about it. You and others like you got your panties in a twist, and I was warned to tone it down. You'll note that people just like you have also been warned to stop derailing my threads with personal attacks. Having had experience with your particular brand of flaming and pseudo-psychoanalysis, I am completely unsurprised by your behavior in this thread, but I note you've now shifted away from flaming me directly, to making comments about me to other people. Clever girl.

All of this to say, hi kettle, I'm pot, we're black.

You both have goo points. Just kiss and make up, or something. God why do people have to fight like this.

[Intangelon]

And it happens all the time, whether the legal system is involved or not. "That kind of stress" is part of life, whether or not anyone chooses to laugh at it. your defense here is too vague to be useful.

The stress of being falsely accused of rape happens all the time?

Nice try, but no.

Stresses to marriages happen all the time. Come on. For someone so demanding about fine points of reading comprehension, you seem to fail at extending that to your own.

[Bottle]

Having had experience dealing with Hiddenrun in the past, I can tell you that his intent was to get exactly the response he got. He's angry at women, for any of a dozen possible reasons (most of which have been speculated about in the past), and he likes posting things that he thinks will make women angry back. He's been reported for flame-baiting before, so he's gotten more careful about posting topics that genuinely count as topics.

I've been accused of flame-baiting because people like you went out of your way to mischaracterize my points, and run off to Moderation to cry about it. You and others like you got your panties in a twist, and I was warned to tone it down. You'll note that people just like you have also been warned to stop derailing my threads with personal attacks.

To the best of my knowledge, I've never reported you to moderation, nor am I aware of receiving one of the warnings you talk about.

If you're pissed at people for those things, talk to them about it, or talk to a Mod if you feel you've been dealt with unfairly.

[Bottle]

You both have goo points. Just kiss and make up, or something. God why do people have to fight like this.

Hahaha, this isn't a "fight," friend. This isn't even a spat, in NSG terms. Hidden will have to, I dunno, say that ALL women who say they've been raped are liars or something, before he'd even get a rise out of me. And he won't say that.

[Intangelon]

We have that already, as the thread has illustrated multiple times.

What YOU want is to make the punishment more severe. That's fine, but you'd be better off just admitting that instead of implying that there IS no punishment for filing false charges, perjury, slander, etc.

I'm not implying anything. I'm stating outright that it is becoming more common to actually charge women who make false accusations, and I'm glad for that. I believe that they should face criminal and civil sanction. I believe that they should have to make a public apology in an attempt to rectify the harm they've caused.

I am glad that these cases are being reported more. It suggests that it's being taken more seriously. Now I haven't been able to find similar reports from 20 years ago, but that's not to say there aren't any, they could just be buried. I personally don't recall hearing about women being given jail time for this sort of thing until recently. I am happy that this is changed.

That is the sum total of my argument on this matter, all the speculation aside.

I don't think so.

You are going on and on about how false accusations destroy lives, and I have no trouble believing that they do. What I have trouble believing is that they're anywhere near as common as you seem to think they are. Bottle has already shown how rare they are, and I think making this kind of showy outrage over something that happens less frequently than deaths from lightning strike is disingenuous.

[JuNii]

You both have goo points. Just kiss and make up, or something. God why do people have to fight like this.

you want them to kiss and make out, er.. UP! because they have goo points?

can I get a vid of this?

pweeeze?

[Grave_n_idle]

I am glad that these cases are being reported more. It suggests that it's being taken more seriously. Now I haven't been able to find similar reports from 20 years ago...

But, I'm just sure there must be more, now...

Awesome.

[Bottle]

I don't think so.

You are going on and on about how false accusations destroy lives, and I have no trouble believing that they do. What I have trouble believing is that they're anywhere near as common as you seem to think they are. Bottle has already shown how rare they are, and I think making this kind of showy outrage over something that happens less frequently than deaths from lightning strike is disingenuous.

Honestly, if anybody is interested in having a discussion about the ACTUAL issues surrounding false rape arrests or convictions, I'd be happy to do that. I think we'd probably get farther with it if Hiddenrun's side-tracks were just ignored.

For instance, one of the most serious problems with our justice system right now is the fact that many of our "core" forensic evidence methods are not scientifically based. Even fingerprint identification, which is the most classic example out there, has fucktons of problems with it. Shows like CSI make it seem like there's pure science behind things like identifying soil traces, when the reality is that the procedures often don't rely on sound double-blind methods or controls.

Another issue that could be discussed is ways in which witness testimony is handled. Interview procedure, in particular, is a major problem. When interviewing a person who has just experienced something traumatic, it can be extremely easy to (unintentionally!) influence what they tell you, leading to the gathering of false information.

A third, and perhaps most serious, concern is the angle of prosecution. How prosecutors decide when/if to proceed with an investigation is not always based on the evidence...but is that necessarily a bad thing? Good debate to be had on that one.

[Hiddenrun]

Nice try, but no.

Stresses to marriages happen all the time. Come on. For someone so demanding about fine points of reading comprehension, you seem to fail at extending that to your own.

I'm trying to avoid doing what some people here seem so fond of. Making assumptions about what you meant.

There is marital stress, and there is marital stress. My wife being pissed of over a series of little things building up into one big thing is a lot different than being told that I raped someone, especially considering the work we do with those that have experienced abuse. That nature of my job would make it impossible for me to retain my employment with such an accusation hanging over my head.

And were I actually guilty of rape, I would deserve every single one of the probably consequences I've previously mentioned. I wouldn't fault any of them for it, despite your rather dismissive comments about churches, and weak marriage ties or whatever else.

[Intangelon]

I don't think so.

You are going on and on about how false accusations destroy lives, and I have no trouble believing that they do. What I have trouble believing is that they're anywhere near as common as you seem to think they are. Bottle has already shown how rare they are, and I think making this kind of showy outrage over something that happens less frequently than deaths from lightning strike is disingenuous.

Honestly, if anybody is interested in having a discussion about the ACTUAL issues surrounding false rape arrests or convictions, I'd be happy to do that. I think we'd probably get farther with it if Hiddenrun's side-tracks were just ignored.

For instance, one of the most serious problems with our justice system right now is the fact that many of our "core" forensic evidence methods are not scientifically based. Even fingerprint identification, which is the most classic example out there, has fucktons of problems with it. Shows like CSI make it seem like there's pure science behind things like identifying soil traces, when the reality is that the procedures often don't rely on sound double-blind methods or controls.

Another issue that could be discussed is ways in which witness testimony is handled. Interview procedure, in particular, is a major problem. When interviewing a person who has just experienced something traumatic, it can be extremely easy to (unintentionally!) influence what they tell you, leading to the gathering of false information.

A third, and perhaps most serious, concern is the angle of prosecution. How prosecutors decide when/if to proceed with an investigation is not always based on the evidence...but is that necessarily a bad thing? Good debate to be had on that one.

Agreed, and excellent points all. Thing is, I almost certain it wouldn't make for good NSG fodder. I'd love to hear about it, and learn about what procedures would be necessary in order to make sure the science end of the evidential process is made as clear and effective as possible.

[Hiddenrun]

I don't think so.

You are going on and on about how false accusations destroy lives, and I have no trouble believing that they do. What I have trouble believing is that they're anywhere near as common as you seem to think they are. Bottle has already shown how rare they are, and I think making this kind of showy outrage over something that happens less frequently than deaths from lightning strike is disingenuous.

Ah, so I shouldn't talk about it because it's so godawful rare.

What a strange stance you bunch are taking lately.

It's also godawful serious, and happens to be a worry I think a lot of men have, justified or not. (Oh well most rape claims are real, so don't worry, Harry, it's totally unlikely you'd ever be falsely accused) Being falsely accused of rape (or sexual harassment), that is, to be clear. Especially with ambiguous sexual-harassment laws and so on. You see less and less men entering the field of education to become teachers because it simply isn't worth the life-shattering risk of being accused of sexual abuse (my apologies on even bringing this up since I don't really want to go into issues surrounding child abuse real or false).

Nor do I think that it is is only men who are confused about the issues. The fact that a man can't even bring up this topic without women accusing him of misogyny, or believing that all women who report rape are liars, or whatever other else bullshit has been thrown my way here, is simply more evidence that this is a topic that actually does need to be discussed.

[Mackedamia]

they should be charged with ten years jail! And a 200,000 dollar fine.

[Bottle]

Agreed, and excellent points all. Thing is, I almost certain it wouldn't make for good NSG fodder. I'd love to hear about it, and learn about what procedures would be necessary in order to make sure the science end of the evidential process is made as clear and effective as possible.

Well, one of the biggest issues is the lack of peer review in forensics. It's not totally absent, but there's so much less peer review than in other areas of science.

Roger Koppl wrote a nice piece on this subject a while back, hopefully this link works:
http://reason.org/news/show/1002852.html

[Intangelon]

Nice try, but no.

Stresses to marriages happen all the time. Come on. For someone so demanding about fine points of reading comprehension, you seem to fail at extending that to your own.

I'm trying to avoid doing what some people here seem so fond of. Making assumptions about what you meant.

There is marital stress, and there is marital stress. My wife being pissed of over a series of little things building up into one big thing is a lot different than being told that I raped someone, especially considering the work we do with those that have experienced abuse. That nature of my job would make it impossible for me to retain my employment with such an accusation hanging over my head.

And were I actually guilty of rape, I would deserve every single one of the probable consequences I've previously mentioned. I wouldn't fault any of them for it, despite your rather dismissive comments about churches, and weak marriage ties or whatever else.

They're "rather dismissive" because those who would abandon you in your time of need deserve to be treated dismissively. A church who abandons you for sinning is guilty of an appalling level of hypocrisy that Jesus Himself would weep for. A wife who does the same is no better. BOTH are even more guilty if the allegations of wrongdoing are shown to be patently false, or worse yet (in the ridiculously small numbers that this happens) made up for some kind of revenge.

Sorry if that offends, but that's the truth as I see it.

Your employer might be forgiven for LWOP until the allegatios are shown to be false, but firing you? You'd have legal recourse for that.

[Hiddenrun]

Edit: discussion moved to a more appropriate forum.

[Intangelon]

I don't think so.

You are going on and on about how false accusations destroy lives, and I have no trouble believing that they do. What I have trouble believing is that they're anywhere near as common as you seem to think they are. Bottle has already shown how rare they are, and I think making this kind of showy outrage over something that happens less frequently than deaths from lightning strike is disingenuous.

Ah, so I shouldn't talk about it because it's so godawful rare.

What a strange stance you bunch are taking lately.

It's also godawful serious, and happens to be a worry I think a lot of men have, justified or not. (Oh well most rape claims are real, so don't worry, Harry, it's totally unlikely you'd ever be falsely accused) Being falsely accused of rape (or sexual harassment), that is, to be clear. Especially with ambiguous sexual-harassment laws and so on. You see less and less men entering the field of education to become teachers because it simply isn't worth the life-shattering risk of being accused of sexual abuse (my apologies on even bringing this up since I don't really want to go into issues surrounding child abuse real or false).

Nor do I think that it is is only men who are confused about the issues. The fact that a man can't even bring up this topic without women accusing him of misogyny, or believing that all women who report rape are liars, or whatever other else bullshit has been thrown my way here, is simply more evidence that this is a topic that actually does need to be discussed.

If the occurrences you're going on about weren't so amazingly rare, you'd have a point. I don't think the world is as full of men who worry about this as you think it is. As far as I know, the men who might need to worry about this are ones who regularly put themselves into positions where accusations might be possible. Fraternities spring to mind right off the bat. Having roomed with a VP of a Sigma Chi chapter and listening to his stories about how many crimes he and his brothers had committed were ignored or written off, and his triumphant tone regarding that kind of teflon protection from prosecution because of the brotherhood's connections, well, it wouldn't surprise me if those who see women as a resource rather than people might just open themselves up to the possibility of occasional malicious false accusations.

EDIT: clarification.

[Intangelon]

Agreed, and excellent points all. Thing is, I almost certain it wouldn't make for good NSG fodder. I'd love to hear about it, and learn about what procedures would be necessary in order to make sure the science end of the evidential process is made as clear and effective as possible.

Well, one of the biggest issues is the lack of peer review in forensics. It's not totally absent, but there's so much less peer review than in other areas of science.

Roger Koppl wrote a nice piece on this subject a while back, hopefully this link works:
http://reason.org/news/show/1002852.html

It worked. Looks good, but I'll have to wait until later to give it a full reading. Thank you.

[Desperate Measures]

Why is this the aspect of rape crime some people concern themselves most with?

[CIB EMPIRE]

i guess it depends on how far it goes.

a high-profile trial and a year or so in jail seems right.

Are you serious? The punishment should be similar to the punishment of the accused crime.

Why?

Because she lied to get a man in trouble for something he never did. Thats wrong.

[The Alma Mater]

i guess it depends on how far it goes.

a high-profile trial and a year or so in jail seems right.

Are you serious? The punishment should be similar to the punishment of the accused crime.

Why?

Presumedly because the goal of the false accusation is to make the other suffer said punishment. Poetic justice ? Somewhat fairy-tale like even.

[Grave_n_idle]

i guess it depends on how far it goes.

a high-profile trial and a year or so in jail seems right.

Are you serious? The punishment should be similar to the punishment of the accused crime.

Why?

Because she lied to get a man in trouble for something he never did. Thats wrong.

So is rape.

Which is MORE wrong?