It's about time women are punished for false rape claims

[Hiddenrun]

That's utter bull. Hell, there are times when men are accused of rape and the evidence is simply inconclusive, not exonerating, and the person who brought charges often faces just as much of a backlash as the accused.

The common theme here seems to be 'rape is hard to prove, thus we should err on the side of caution and believe the person reporting it'.

Which calls on us to accept a much lessened evedentiary burden than you would have for any other crime. And considering the consequences of being convicted as a rapist, that makes even less sense.

Yes, rape is sometimes difficult to prove. That does not mean we should just be locking up men on the say so of any woman claiming to be a rape victim. Should I be able to accuse you of robbing me and, without any evidence to back me up, have you wind up in jail for it? Since you no doubt feel that rape is much more serious than robbery, I can't see how you can support that.

[Hiddenrun]

^ This pretty much nailed it.

I will say, I certainly sympathize with anyone falsely accused of a crime. I'm sure it's very unpleasant. The idea that it is even faintly comparable to being raped, however, is ridiculous and offensive, as I'm quite certain the OP knows.

Oh gee, Polliwanna jumps into the middle of a thread and makes spurious accusations about what I've stated. How uncharacteristic.

[Hiddenrun]

Since we're on the topic of false accusations of horrible crimes, what do you think should be done about people who accuse others of being Nazis, wanting to kill their parents and any other number of patently false claims hmm? The accused might lose their jobs, livelihoods and upstanding in the community because of the above mentioned false allegations, and in one case, their life because the murderer believed the accusations and saw himself as a vigilante.

Should they too be punished? I look forward to your answer.

All of these things are illegal.

[Dakini]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

maybe it is. but it does bring up one interesting point.

the fact that those falsely accused are harmed by the accusation and that they too are victims.

as long as we focus on the rare case of the proven false accusations, then it can become an intersting topic.

But it's already a crime to file a false police report. This isn't anything new.

true, but the stigma of being accused is still damaging. which is why I'm not pushing for those who purposely falsely accuses someone to be punished by jail time or anything 'severe', but a televised, public apology with the admission that the person was falsely accused should help remove the stigmata faster.

As long as it's actually false and not just "results in a not guilty verdict" or "victim decides to pull the plug on the investigation because she is afraid of going to trial/repercussions/what her family and friends will think when they find out she was raped/whatever other reason a woman would pull the plug on an investigation" or something like this... then maybe.

Also, I wasn't aware that people falsely (or not) accused of rape developed crucifixion markings (see bolded word).

[JuNii]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

maybe it is. but it does bring up one interesting point.

the fact that those falsely accused are harmed by the accusation and that they too are victims.

as long as we focus on the rare case of the proven false accusations, then it can become an intersting topic.

Not really. It should then be treated the exact same way as falsely accusing someone of any other crime. They can absolutely be prosecuted for filing a false police report, and they can absolutely be sued by the falsely accused in civil court. I see no reason whatsoever to single out rape accusations as some sort of special case except to guarantee that even fewer rapes will be reported, since that will be one more thing for victims to be afraid of - which hardly seems like an admirable goal.

several points.
1) my idea of a formal and public apology isn't just for those accused falsely of rape, but for all those accused falsely of a crime.
2) being found not guilty or even in the course of the investigation to be found innocent is not the same as being proven that the accusations are false.
3) why would the victim be afraid? if in the course of the investigation, it's found that the person identified wasn't the criminal and it cannot be proven that the 'victim' filed a false accusation, then my little add-on wouldn't apply. basically, if one files a false accusation, then that person has to be prepared to go all the way, and doing so will add up the charges and make the punishment, for when the truth is found out, far more severe than what filing a false report would be. if the Victim was truly a victim of a crime, (or at least believes such) then obviously, what they filed wouldn't be a purposely false claim.

[Hiddenrun]

Not really. It should then be treated the exact same way as falsely accusing someone of any other crime. They can absolutely be prosecuted for filing a false police report, and they can absolutely be sued by the falsely accused in civil court. I see no reason whatsoever to single out rape accusations as some sort of special case except to guarantee that even fewer rapes will be reported, since that will be one more thing for victims to be afraid of - which hardly seems like an admirable goal.

Because, as has been evidenced by the comments of many in this thread, the accusation of rape and the inherent evidentiary difficulties involved mean that it is much easier to make a false claim of rape than say, robbery, identify theft, or what have you. In society's zeal to 'err on the side of caution', the bar has been lowered significantly when it comes to having someone prosecuted for rape. To counteract that without damaging the ability of the state to punish actual rapists, we need some sort of scheme to deal with those who would use false claims of rape as a weapon.

[Barringtonia]

^ This pretty much nailed it.

I will say, I certainly sympathize with anyone falsely accused of a crime. I'm sure it's very unpleasant. The idea that it is even faintly comparable to being raped, however, is ridiculous and offensive, as I'm quite certain the OP knows.

Oh gee, Polliwanna jumps into the middle of a thread and makes spurious accusations about what I've stated. How uncharacteristic.

I'd get over a rape a lot faster than I'd get over people in my community and family believing that I was a rapist.

[Poliwanacraca]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

maybe it is. but it does bring up one interesting point.

the fact that those falsely accused are harmed by the accusation and that they too are victims.

as long as we focus on the rare case of the proven false accusations, then it can become an intersting topic.

But it's already a crime to file a false police report. This isn't anything new.

Indeed, but filing a false police report accusing a kid of vandalism doesn't carry the same stigma against the accused as does a rape claim.

Yup, and therefore the civil suit brought by the guy falsely accused of rape will probably end up costing the false accuser more money than the civil suit brought by the teenager falsely accused of vandalism. The civil suit brought by the kindergarten teacher falsely accused of murdering a toddler will probably beat out both of them. Given that false reports of rape occur in roughly the same proportion as false reports of other crimes - generally about 2% across the board, as I recall - I am still not seeing any reason to add additional criminal penalties to a false accusation of rape except to make sure victims feel that much more afraid to report rapes.

[JuNii]

As long as it's actually false and not just "results in a not guilty verdict" or "victim decides to pull the plug on the investigation because she is afraid of going to trial/repercussions/what her family and friends will think when they find out she was raped/whatever other reason a woman would pull the plug on an investigation" or something like this... then maybe.

Also, I wasn't aware that people falsely (or not) accused of rape developed crucifixion markings (see bolded word).

yes, I repeatedly stated that "not Guilty" doesn't mean the 'victim' filed a false report. hence I said "Proven to be a false accusation"

the victim... if so chooses, can probably drop the charges or even chose to halt the investigation. that may not sit well with the police, but if the victim refuses to make a case or even to continue the case, wouldn't the police be forced to stop the investigation?

well, they are kinda crucified by public opinion...

[Hiddenrun]

I refer you to Poli's post. She said it much better than I could.

I notice that unlike Intangelon, you didn't fess up to your (admittedly much more grievous and deliberate obfuscation of my position) error. I'll just assume you haven't gotten around to it yet.

[Ashmoria]

I think this is basically a trolling thread. The deliberate attempts to misinterpret what other posters have offered, the 'she-asked-for-it' rhetoric, and the creation of magnificent strawmen leads me to conclude that Hidden is not really interested in honest debate.

maybe it is. but it does bring up one interesting point.

the fact that those falsely accused are harmed by the accusation and that they too are victims.

as long as we focus on the rare case of the proven false accusations, then it can become an intersting topic.

But it's already a crime to file a false police report. This isn't anything new.

true, but the stigma of being accused is still damaging. which is why I'm not pushing for those who purposely falsely accuses someone to be punished by jail time or anything 'severe', but a televised, public apology with the admission that the person was falsely accused should help remove the stigmata faster.

i dont think that anyone is arguing that its not a serious offense that deserves prosecution.

im not sure WHAT hiddenrun is on about since everyone agrees with him on his basic point.

[Hiddenrun]

true, but the stigma of being accused is still damaging. which is why I'm not pushing for those who purposely falsely accuses someone to be punished by jail time or anything 'severe', but a televised, public apology with the admission that the person was falsely accused should help remove the stigmata faster.

I think the public nature of the apology and the shame that would go along with it would be an excellent deterrant to those who might think making a rape claim would be an easy way to achieve whatever twisted aims they have. (some women were listed as doing it to get back at people, to claim compensation, to avoid having to write exams, etc...lots of wackos out there, maybe it's the new 'my aunt died' excuse?)

[Poliwanacraca]

^ This pretty much nailed it.

I will say, I certainly sympathize with anyone falsely accused of a crime. I'm sure it's very unpleasant. The idea that it is even faintly comparable to being raped, however, is ridiculous and offensive, as I'm quite certain the OP knows.

Oh gee, Polliwanna jumps into the middle of a thread and makes spurious accusations about what I've stated. How uncharacteristic.

I'd get over a rape a lot faster than I'd get over people in my community and family believing that I was a rapist.

Beat me to it. Hiddenrun, do please explain how it was spurious of me to imply that you'd compared being raped to being accused of rape, seeing as there you are being quoted comparing being raped to being accused of rape.

Or were you just suggesting that the accusation that you knew something was spurious? There, you might have a point. If you prefer, I will assume from now on that you know nothing at all.

[Hiddenrun]

Also, I wasn't aware that people falsely (or not) accused of rape developed crucifixion markings (see bolded word).

That would be fantastic if true; it would make finding the 'clean conscience' oh so much easier!

[Barringtonia]

im not sure WHAT hiddenrun is on about since everyone agrees with him on his basic point.

Yes, neither am I to be honest,

'Women should receive punishment for false rape claims'
'They are'

/conversation.

[Hiddenrun]

I'd get over a rape a lot faster than I'd get over people in my community and family believing that I was a rapist.

And I stand by my personal belief that for me, being raped wouldn't be as bad as having all the people important to me actually believing I was a rapist. I don't give a rat's ass if Polliwanna finds that offensive. I'm not claiming to be her.

[Dakini]

As long as it's actually false and not just "results in a not guilty verdict" or "victim decides to pull the plug on the investigation because she is afraid of going to trial/repercussions/what her family and friends will think when they find out she was raped/whatever other reason a woman would pull the plug on an investigation" or something like this... then maybe.

Also, I wasn't aware that people falsely (or not) accused of rape developed crucifixion markings (see bolded word).

yes, I repeatedly stated that "not Guilty" doesn't mean the 'victim' filed a false report. hence I said "Proven to be a false accusation"

I know. I just like to restate the conditions under which this is agreeable in the event that you change your mind on the conditions (since under other conditions this is a horrible, horrible idea).

well, they are kinda crucified by public opinion...

Well, maybe it means that the police should be more discrete when investigating rapes and arresting rapists (e.g. arresting them at their homes, asking them to come in voluntarily if they do not seem to be a flight risk, sending plainclothes officers in unmarked cars to pick them up and asking if they would prefer to go without the handcuffs as though for a chat instead of an arrest, not mentioning that they are investigating a rape when interviewing people who know the accused). Then if it is an entirely fabricated account then the accused could then claim that someone saw a person fitting their description near the scene of a theft, but they cops later found the right guy or just had some questions to ask thinking he was a possible witness... etc.

[Hiddenrun]

i dont think that anyone is arguing that its not a serious offense that deserves prosecution.

im not sure WHAT hiddenrun is on about since everyone agrees with him on his basic point.

I didn't expect this thread to turn into a cluster fuck, considering how non-contentious I believe my premise to be. I think I've stated very clearly my position on what I believe should happen. Most of the rest has been me correcting those here who would like to pretend I've made some sort of fucked up argument about how women are asking for it, or whatever it is they're on now.

[JuNii]

im not sure WHAT hiddenrun is on about since everyone agrees with him on his basic point.

Yes, neither am I to be honest,

'Women should receive punishment for false rape claims'
'They are'

/conversation.

I think he's looking for a harsher punishment than just what might be seen as 'a slap on the wrist'.

especially because a person who is falsely accused (and even those found not guilty) are still viewed as being guilty by those in close vicinity.

look at the threads here and on jolt. people accused of rape is villinfied by posters here even before the trial. infact, some posters scoffed at the idea that a woman would 'lie' about being raped. yet the rare case does surface. so I can see what he may be trying to say...

but making the punishment as severe as being guilty of the crime accused? nah. too harsh.

[Barringtonia]

I'd get over a rape a lot faster than I'd get over people in my community and family believing that I was a rapist.

And I stand by my personal belief that for me, being raped wouldn't be as bad as having all the people important to me actually believing I was a rapist. I don't give a rat's ass if Polliwanna finds that offensive. I'm not claiming to be her.

You said she made a spurious claim, she hadn't, nor had Dakini to be honest in that while you hadn't implied false claims deserve the same jail time as such, you have implied that false rape accusations are worse than actual rape, which 'implies' similar if not greater punishment,

So the above reply is kind of irrelevant, we already know your opinion, I'm just countering your claim that you're being misrepresented,

[Poliwanacraca]

3) why would the victim be afraid? if in the course of the investigation, it's found that the person identified wasn't the criminal and it cannot be proven that the 'victim' filed a false accusation, then my little add-on wouldn't apply. basically, if one files a false accusation, then that person has to be prepared to go all the way, and doing so will add up the charges and make the punishment, for when the truth is found out, far more severe than what filing a false report would be. if the Victim was truly a victim of a crime, (or at least believes such) then obviously, what they filed wouldn't be a purposely false claim.

Rape victims are already regularly effectively put on trial and accused of being sluts, of being liars, of really wanting to be raped, of deserving what happened to them. Given that being accused of a lot of things you never did is already part and parcel of testifying against one's rapist, your confidence that no rape victim would worry that those accusations of lying could possibly turn into criminal charges seems, quite frankly, more than a little naive. To speak from my own experience, the guy who assaulted me happens to be quite talented at sounding remarkably honest and trustworthy while he's lying through his teeth. I can tell you, for myself, that I would have been truly afraid that he would somehow convince a prosecutor that I was lying. If you believe being falsely accused of rape is bad, if you worry about men being convicted either under the law or in the "court of public opinion" without solid evidence, wouldn't being falsely accused of making a false accusation be rather horrible, too? Wouldn't it also carry similar risks of conviction simply based on one party sounding better on the stand? If you honestly think false accusations are a problem, how can you seriously argue that a rapist couldn't use his own false accusations as blackmail to keep his victim from going to the cops?

[JuNii]

Well, maybe it means that the police should be more discrete when investigating rapes and arresting rapists (e.g. arresting them at their homes, asking them to come in voluntarily if they do not seem to be a flight risk, sending plainclothes officers in unmarked cars to pick them up and asking if they would prefer to go without the handcuffs as though for a chat instead of an arrest, not mentioning that they are investigating a rape when interviewing people who know the accused). Then if it is an entirely fabricated account then the accused could then claim that someone saw a person fitting their description near the scene of a theft, but they cops later found the right guy or just had some questions to ask thinking he was a possible witness... etc.

I believe most times they are. it's the victim, their families, friends, lawyers, etc... that go to the press with the story.

and yes, sometimes it's also the cops who do so...

[Non Aligned States]

All of these things are illegal.

Yet none of the people who made those accusations are in jail, not even those who incited others to murder with deliberately inflammatory language meant to do just that. In fact, they are defended and lauded as people who "tell it as it is", despite facts to the contrary.

I refer of course, to certain American political/religious groups and pundits who make these false allegations in order to further their control among radicals and defend their actions as "free speech" when people take their words at face value and murder under their influence.

But I am quite pleased that you have acknowledged that these things are illegal. I presume that you would support their punishment then?

[NotnotgnimmiJymmiJ]

That's utter bull. Hell, there are times when men are accused of rape and the evidence is simply inconclusive, not exonerating, and the person who brought charges often faces just as much of a backlash as the accused.

The common theme here seems to be 'rape is hard to prove, thus we should err on the side of caution and believe the person reporting it'.

Which calls on us to accept a much lessened evedentiary burden than you would have for any other crime. And considering the consequences of being convicted as a rapist, that makes even less sense.

Really, did you learn that from Law and Order or Legally Blond?

[Hiddenrun]

Beat me to it. Hiddenrun, do please explain how it was spurious of me to imply that you'd compared being raped to being accused of rape, seeing as there you are being quoted comparing being raped to being accused of rape.

Or were you just suggesting that the accusation that you knew something was spurious? There, you might have a point. If you prefer, I will assume from now on that you know nothing at all.

See, what you're doing here is deliberately ruffling your own feathers. Did I say that if you were raped, that would be less horrible than if you were accused of rape?

No.

Don't even pretend to claim that's what I've said.

Women who are raped face a social stigma. MEN who are raped face an arguably even worse social stigma, especially if raped by a woman. There will be the inevitable 'oh please I wish that woman would 'rape' me!' comments etc. People aren't going to take female on male rape very seriously. Imagine how that makes male victims feel.

Knowing this, I still say that it would be worse for me to be accused of rape and have people around me actually believe it. I would likely lose my job. My wife would divorce me in a heartbeat, and I would probably lose access to my children. My church would turn their back on me, my neighbors would shun me. I could lose my livelihood, my home, my standing, everything over the accusation of rape. Could any of that happen to me if I were actually raped? Not even close. Not even with the added stigma of being a male victim of a female-perpetrated rape.

So don't fucking sit there on your high horse and tell me how rape is always a million, trillion times worse than an accusation of rape. There is nothing more spurious than a smug claim like that.

For a woman, rape might be much worse than being accused of rape. Why? Because such accusations against women aren't taken all that seriously. That is reality. Reality also tells us that men accused of rape are seen in a much different light.