God died in Auschwitz

[Crystalcliff Point]

Even if free will hadn't already been rendered metaphysically impossible, this would still be a cop-out.

It's not even so much that it's made metaphysically impossible. God, by being omniscient, would know everything that will happen. Such a deity would know what my next sentence will be. And why I'm typing it. And to whom. There would be no surprises.

It's even stated, in the bible, that the "God" character had ... I think the phrase used is "charted out the days of my life". Pretty much from womb to grave. Free what now?

[Mavorpen]

Using the holocost against the excistence of God, is a poor argument. Humans is, and were created free; with a free will to do as we will. We have been blessed with the opportunity to decide for ourselves what to do, though, many has aboused this blessing, such as Hitler (who btw was not a Christian by faith). It was humans, and humans only's fault what happened.

If god knows everything and still planted the tree knowing we would sin, he is responsible. If he is incapable of creating us completely obedient yet with free will, then he is not all powerful and he is a failure. Hitler was a Christian by faith, stop your bullshit.

[Vestr-Norig]

such as Hitler (who btw was not a Christian by faith). It was humans, and humans only's fault what happened.

Who are you to dictate what another person believed or didn't believe? He professed his Christianity, and that should be sufficient unless you have compelling evidence to prove he didn't believe what he claimed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitl ... ious_views
"It was Goebbels opinion that Hitler was "deeply religious but entirely anti-Christian" (sitation)

Statement from Hitler (in private): "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

Hitler only only promoted Christianity in public, as the people would surely go against him, and maybe even claim him to ba a socialist or even communist, if he attacked Chirstianity, the main religion of Germany now and then.

[Vestr-Norig]

Using the holocost against the excistence of God, is a poor argument. Humans is, and were created free; with a free will to do as we will. We have been blessed with the opportunity to decide for ourselves what to do, though, many has aboused this blessing, such as Hitler (who btw was not a Christian by faith). It was humans, and humans only's fault what happened.

If god knows everything and still planted the tree knowing we would sin, he is responsible. If he is incapable of creating us completely obedient yet with free will, then he is not all powerful and he is a failure. Hitler was a Christian by faith, stop your bullshit.

God is not, and has never been "a failure". God created man in his image; as free individuals, with our own consiousness, a free will to do the exact thing we want to. God's creation should not follow him blindly, as a maschine, but decide himself to follow him and his teaching or not.

[Mavorpen]

Who are you to dictate what another person believed or didn't believe? He professed his Christianity, and that should be sufficient unless you have compelling evidence to prove he didn't believe what he claimed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitl ... ious_views
"It was Goebbels opinion that Hitler was "deeply religious but entirely anti-Christian" (sitation)

Statement from Hitler (in private): "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

Hitler only only promoted Christianity in public, as the people would surely go against him, and maybe even claim him to ba a socialist or even communist, if he attacked Chirstianity, the main religion of Germany now and then.

Nice cherry picking! When he stated that Hitler was anti Christian, he meant Hitler was against the church and the doctrines of certain Christian individuals like Paul. He DID believe in god and Jesus, which makes you a Christian. Seriously read the rest of the Wikipedia page.

[Mavorpen]

If god knows everything and still planted the tree knowing we would sin, he is responsible. If he is incapable of creating us completely obedient yet with free will, then he is not all powerful and he is a failure. Hitler was a Christian by faith, stop your bullshit.

God is not, and has never been "a failure". God created man in his image; as free individuals, with our own consiousness, a free will to do the exact thing we want to. God's creation should not follow him blindly, as a maschine, but decide himself to follow him and his teaching or not.

You didn't read my post did you...?

[The Alma Mater]

God is not, and has never been "a failure". God created man in his image; as free individuals, with our own consiousness, a free will to do the exact thing we want to. God's creation should not follow him blindly, as a maschine, but decide himself to follow him and his teaching or not.

And if God does not like humanities choices, he just erases them with a nice big flood.
Like someone restarting a game of Sims.

[Vestr-Norig]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitl ... ious_views
"It was Goebbels opinion that Hitler was "deeply religious but entirely anti-Christian" (sitation)

Statement from Hitler (in private): "You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

Hitler only only promoted Christianity in public, as the people would surely go against him, and maybe even claim him to ba a socialist or even communist, if he attacked Chirstianity, the main religion of Germany now and then.

Nice cherry picking! When he stated that Hitler was anti Christian, he meant Hitler was against the church and the doctrines of certain Christian individuals like Paul. He DID believe in god and Jesus, which makes you a Christian. Seriously read the rest of the Wikipedia page.

Bah, a Christian by faith would never prefer to have another religion than Christianity, such as the Japanes religons. For Hitler, religion was only a political tool, a tool he used diligently.

[Vestr-Norig]

God is not, and has never been "a failure". God created man in his image; as free individuals, with our own consiousness, a free will to do the exact thing we want to. God's creation should not follow him blindly, as a maschine, but decide himself to follow him and his teaching or not.

You didn't read my post did you...?

Oh, I read it (roughly, though), notting new to me. It still aint a good argument against the excsistence of our Lord, as humans can never truly understand the will of God, his creation, etc. Our guidance has been somewhat limited, but still, it should be enough to lead to heaven when we die if we follow it.

[Mavorpen]

snip

Seriously stop cherry picking. Hitler didn't like how Christianity was twisted from it's original teachings of Jesus, and was this against the church part of Christianity. You've never met a Christian who believes that the church itself is bullshit and that the people like Paul messed up the bible? Get out more.

[Mavorpen]

You didn't read my post did you...?

Oh, I read it (roughly, though), notting new to me. It still aint a good argument against the excsistence of our Lord, as humans can never truly understand the will of God, his creation, etc. Our guidance has been somewhat limited, but still, it should be enough to lead to heaven when we die if we follow it.

Yep, you didn't read it.

[The Alma Mater]

You didn't read my post did you...?

Oh, I read it (roughly, though), notting new to me. It still aint a good argument against the excsistence of our Lord, as humans can never truly understand the will of God, his creation, etc. Our guidance has been somewhat limited, but still, it should be enough to lead to heaven when we die if we follow it.

I still wonder why the flood was needed though - since God is allknowing, had not made a mistake designing humans AND respects our free will according to you.

The flood makes perfect sense if one considers humanity up to then a failed project though and wishes to "reboot". But that is not possible you say.

So please enlighten us And tell us why God had the right to kill almost all of humanity.

[Vestr-Norig]

snip

Seriously stop cherry picking. Hitler didn't like how Christianity was twisted from it's original teachings of Jesus, and was this against the church part of Christianity. You've never met a Christian who believes that the church itself is bullshit and that the people like Paul messed up the bible? Get out more.

Hitler wanted national socialism to be a part of the Christian teaching. He did not want to change it back to how the religion truly was. I am a Lutheran myself, and I too believe that Cathism is only a radical (and bad) change of the original Christian teaching ,the teaching Jesus wanted us to follow. However, this is not a discussion about Hitlers's religious belief, but about the ridicilous argument that the holocast is a proof that God does not escist.

[The Alma Mater]

but about the ridicilous argument that the holocast is a proof that God does not escist.

Actually, it is more of an indication that God is not nice (tm) or does not care (tm).

Or to rephrase: that God actually is the being described in the Bible, and not the ultimate embodiment of love and care so many believers have made him up to be, without any scriptural reason to do so.

[Mavorpen]

Seriously stop cherry picking. Hitler didn't like how Christianity was twisted from it's original teachings of Jesus, and was this against the church part of Christianity. You've never met a Christian who believes that the church itself is bullshit and that the people like Paul messed up the bible? Get out more.

Hitler wanted national socialism to be a part of the Christian teaching. He did not want to change it back to how the religion truly was. I am a Lutheran myself, and I too believe that Cathism is only a radical (and bad) change of the original Christian teaching ,the teaching Jesus wanted us to follow. However, this is not a discussion about Hitlers's religious belief, but about the ridicilous argument that the holocast is a proof that God does not escist.

Wrong again, Hitler wasn't a National Socialist. Nazism does include socialism, but Hitler didn't follow that route. In fact some Nazis even went against Hitler for this. And no the holocaust doesn't prove god doesn't exist. It shows he's an asshole though.

[Praetox]

If god knows everything and still planted the tree knowing we would sin, he is responsible. If he is incapable of creating us completely obedient yet with free will, then he is not all powerful and he is a failure. Hitler was a Christian by faith, stop your bullshit.

God is not, and has never been "a failure". God created man in his image; as free individuals, with our own consiousness, a free will to do the exact thing we want to. God's creation should not follow him blindly, as a maschine, but decide himself to follow him and his teaching or not.

If you created a little gremlin, knowing full well that once created, the gremlin would have a nasty disposition and enjoy running amok, and you set him free, and he promptly ran about slashing people's tires, setting trees afire, going into clothing stores and pissing on the racks, etc., you would be partly responsible because you had known from the start what would happen. You could cry, "but I gave him free will!" until you were blue in the face, but you'd still go to jail. And rightfully so.

[Vestr-Norig]

Oh, I read it (roughly, though), notting new to me. It still aint a good argument against the excsistence of our Lord, as humans can never truly understand the will of God, his creation, etc. Our guidance has been somewhat limited, but still, it should be enough to lead to heaven when we die if we follow it.

I still wonder why the flood was needed though - since God is allknowing, had not made a mistake designing humans AND respects our free will according to you.

The flood makes perfect sense if one considers humanity up to then a failed project though and wishes to "reboot". But that is not possible you say.

So please enlighten us And tell us why God had the right to kill almost all of humanity.

I cannot say I understand God's plan, no, and I belive no one really can. Frankly, I believe the most important of Christianity is to follow the teaching in it (the New Testament), not focus too much on stories from the Old Testament that do not really say too much (to us). Christianity is about following the teaching of Jesus, not about a flood that happened thousands of years ago. I still find it amousing, that arguments from Atheists only refers to the Old Testament, not the
New Testament, the Testmament most important to Christians.

[Vestr-Norig]

Hitler wanted national socialism to be a part of the Christian teaching. He did not want to change it back to how the religion truly was. I am a Lutheran myself, and I too believe that Cathism is only a radical (and bad) change of the original Christian teaching ,the teaching Jesus wanted us to follow. However, this is not a discussion about Hitlers's religious belief, but about the ridicilous argument that the holocast is a proof that God does not escist.

Wrong again, Hitler wasn't a National Socialist. Nazism does include socialism, but Hitler didn't follow that route. In fact some Nazis even went against Hitler for this. And no the holocaust doesn't prove god doesn't exist. It shows he's an asshole though.

It shows that humans can be "assholes", it does not shows that God is. Big difference.

[Mavorpen]

I cannot say I understand God's plan, no, and I belive no one really can. Frankly, I believe the most important of Christianity is to follow the teaching in it (the New Testament), not focus too much on stories from the Old Testament that do not really say too much (to us). Christianity is about following the teaching of Jesus, not about a flood that happened thousands of years ago. I still find it amousing, that arguments from Atheists only refers to the Old Testament, not the
New Testament, the Testmament most important to Christians.

Funny, because if you actually read the Bible, Jesus says he didn't come to abolish the Old Testament laws, but to enforce them. The OT is just as important as the NT. Sorry Christians, you can't just ignore and cherry pick which parts of the Bible to follow.

[Unilisia]

Cause and effect. Hitler didn't like minorities, so he rounded them up and had them killed.

The effect is that a lot of them died. Simple as that. What defines a person as being 'human' can't truly be defined but by the fact we share the same DNA.

[Mavorpen]

Wrong again, Hitler wasn't a National Socialist. Nazism does include socialism, but Hitler didn't follow that route. In fact some Nazis even went against Hitler for this. And no the holocaust doesn't prove god doesn't exist. It shows he's an asshole though.

It shows that humans can be "assholes", it does not shows that God is. Big difference.

God creating us un-perfect, put a tree, commanding us not to take a fruit (knowing that we would), killing all of humanity to start over because of HIS own failure, claiming to be nicer by sending Jesus to wipe us of our sins, and then ignoring one of the biggest atrocities in history screams asshole.

[The Alma Mater]

I still wonder why the flood was needed though - since God is allknowing, had not made a mistake designing humans AND respects our free will according to you.

The flood makes perfect sense if one considers humanity up to then a failed project though and wishes to "reboot". But that is not possible you say.

So please enlighten us And tell us why God had the right to kill almost all of humanity.

I cannot say I understand God's plan, no, and I belive no one really can. Frankly, I believe the most important of Christianity is to follow the teaching in it (the New Testament), not focus too much on stories from the Old Testament that do not really say too much (to us). Christianity is about following the teaching of Jesus, not about a flood that happened thousands of years ago. I still find it amousing, that arguments from Atheists only refers to the Old Testament, not the
New Testament, the Testmament most important to Christians.

The God is still the same, right ?

So you are still worshipping a massmurderer. That his son might have been a decent guy is entirely irrelevant.

[New Sapienta]

I still wonder why the flood was needed though - since God is allknowing, had not made a mistake designing humans AND respects our free will according to you.

The flood makes perfect sense if one considers humanity up to then a failed project though and wishes to "reboot". But that is not possible you say.

So please enlighten us And tell us why God had the right to kill almost all of humanity.

I cannot say I understand God's plan, no, and I belive no one really can. Frankly, I believe the most important of Christianity is to follow the teaching in it (the New Testament), not focus too much on stories from the Old Testament that do not really say too much (to us). Christianity is about following the teaching of Jesus, not about a flood that happened thousands of years ago. I still find it amousing, that arguments from Atheists only refers to the Old Testament, not the
New Testament, the Testmament most important to Christians.

Why exactly is he fucking around with is, according to you?
What are we to him, a video game?

[Vestr-Norig]

I cannot say I understand God's plan, no, and I belive no one really can. Frankly, I believe the most important of Christianity is to follow the teaching in it (the New Testament), not focus too much on stories from the Old Testament that do not really say too much (to us). Christianity is about following the teaching of Jesus, not about a flood that happened thousands of years ago. I still find it amousing, that arguments from Atheists only refers to the Old Testament, not the
New Testament, the Testmament most important to Christians.

Funny, because if you actually read the Bible, Jesus says he didn't come to abolish the Old Testament laws, but to enforce them. The OT is just as important as the NT. Sorry Christians, you can't just ignore and cherry pick which parts of the Bible to follow.

Ehm, do you meant you can tell Christians what we must follow and not? I did not say we should not follow the Old Testament too, but rather focus more on the New Testament than the Old (that counts for you atheists too, when arguing against it, if you absoluteley have to). After all, the New Testament was in many ways a renovation of the Old Testament, yet, it should not fully replace it either, as you said. But if you follow the words of Jesus, God's son, you will truly be a Christian, even if you have never read nor heared about the Old Testament at all.

[Chinese Regions]

Animals are sinless beings. We are animals. Therefore, we are sinless beings. Thanks for that excercise in futility.

let me rephrase, non human animals. I do realize we are animals however I meant non-human animals

They can't sin, or maybe they do sin but they are not worthy of being converted or whatever (Remember animals don't go to heaven)
This isn't just a Christian concept, the word "animal" has negative connotations, being savage or wild. Because human morality only applies to humans.
And that's good, but we shouldn't base our morality on a universal divine law or a deity, some Atheists also think there is some universal law and it is an epic there is no good or bad in the universe, if you believe there is an you are atheist then you are not atheist.