God died in Auschwitz

[Swag Jerusalem]

I am against condemning them, but I do think Mormons especially have distorted the biblical message. But you're right it's not my place to say who messed it up.

The first thing is not an inconsistency. God was proud of his work, because it was the original creation. The second passage is around the time of Noah when humanity was drenched in sin, and he was sad at what his creations had become.

As for the temple bit, I believe God meant that the temple was a place where he would accept offerings, the eyes and all that I don't take it literally, I believe he meant he was watching over it. So the second one is not inconsistent God doesn't live in any physical dwelling, besides the rules were different in the Old Testament and New Testament. Before Jesus sacrifices were made and such, Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice so no other one is needed. So even if he was in temples as a presence, he wouldn't need to be anymore as no more sacrifices are required.

As for the light and darkness I admit I do not know, I'll ask someone with more knowledge on these matters then myself, and get back to you on that. ( no sarcasm)

Again with the rest I don't take it literally to mean God slumped down on a couch, and drank a sprite. By resting I believe it is meant that he was done with creation. Besides you'd have to read the original to clearly understand the Bible, one reason I believe it can be perceived as inconsistencies as some words don't even have an english(or other language) equivalent to the word used in the hebrew bible.

[Norstal]

No I believe in Jesus. I know what he taught, he wants us to follow what he said, and be Christ-like, and most importantly love one another. The Bible has only one God, and that's the one I serve. God gave us instructions, he wants us to follow them, but I believe they can be interpreted different ways, although with the right amount of study the right way is simple to figure out.

You believe in the ideal Jesus. You believe in the ideal God. Who sets up that standard of ideal? YOU did. YOU made the ideal God. YOU made the ideal Jesus.

Also true Christians believe in one god, Jesus Christ. WBC are not true christians, they preach hatred. Jesus walked with everyone, prostitutes and all, do you really think someone like that would condemn gays?

Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

I'm not saying they believe in the Biblical either. You, the WBC, and every other sect of Christianity made their own god based on the Bible. The Biblical god would both condemn and condone homosexuality.

Condemning people is not a biblical principle, it is one that homophobic and misguided church leaders however try to lead people to believe is in the Bible. Which in turn puts people against the Lord. Catholics have distorted the faith, and mormons are a complete and utter mockery of the truth. Even Bill Maher has admitted mormons and scientiologists have taken religion a step too far.

Condemnation is a biblical principle. I can find the verses for you if you want.

From Romans.

1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; that they are without excuse:
1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

See here, the Bible just called everyone who don't believe in the biblical god were fools. That's condemnation. I mean, I'd be hard pressed not to intrepret this passage as saying "we should hug and respect the intelligence of those who are not Christians!" Really, I'd be dyslexic if I were to read it like that.

HOWEVER,
At the same time, the Bible is, like you said, doesn't do use condemnation as a principle.

Proverbs 17:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Do you know what this means? The Bible is a template of a god. A template in which anyone can make a god out of the scriptures. It's a forge, an anvil. Take it how you will. If you were to believe the God that is written word for word in the Bible, you would believe the scripture word for word.

I however, congratulate you that you don't take it word for word because as you explained earlier, it makes people become extremist. It "distorts the faith".

Don't you ever wonder why Christianity is so successful? There's loads of other monotheist religious...why not do that one instead?

This is why. It's because anyone can become a Christian and make their own Christian god. It's a farce for me, which is why I turn to other beliefs, but as for you, I've done all I can to explain why your god is not the Biblical god.

[Christmahanikwanzikah]

Proverbs 17:22

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Do you know what this means? The Bible is a template of a god. A template in which anyone can make a god out of the scriptures. It's a forge, an anvil. Take it how you will. If you were to believe the God that is written word for word in the Bible, you would believe the scripture word for word.

I however, congratulate you that you don't take it word for word because as you explained earlier, it makes people become extremist. It "distorts the faith".

Don't you ever wonder why Christianity is so successful? There's loads of other monotheist religious...why not do that one instead?

This is why. It's because anyone can become a Christian and make their own Christian god. It's a farce for me, which is why I turn to other beliefs, but as for you, I've done all I can to explain why your god is not the Biblical god.

No, it's more like, if the Spirit is in you, then the consequences - the fruit - of that is that you're inclined to do those things listed.

It's kind of hard to get that context from Proverbs, since there's no context but culture because it's literally a book of proverbs and sayings.

[Swag Jerusalem]

I don't create my own ideal, I follow what is presented in the scripture. I don't believe that my savior is made up, I've communicated with him numerous times.

I do believe some have altered the interpretation, but I doubt they have created their own deity. Well God is the judge, he is the only one who has the right to judge. I do not know how he feels about sexual orientation, but is he not the creator of everyone? Isn't homosexuality natural to some, why would God burn people for what they are? What's so different from that from killing blacks for being black or something along those lines.

God said they were fools, he didn't instruct his followers to go out and judge others. I think we should respect everyone no matter who they are.

The Bible can be used as template by those who wish to misinterpret, but God said anyone who removed words from the book or altered it any way will be punished. I believe Christianity is successful because God has implanted us with a desire to see him out, that and because it is the truth if ou will.

[Norstal]

I don't create my own ideal, I follow what is presented in the scripture. I don't believe that my savior is made up, I've communicated with him numerous times.

What happens if it isn't god?

Don't be gullible. If there exists a world of spirits with those who aligns with god and those who hates god, the line between good and evil is blurred.

I do believe some have altered the interpretation, but I doubt they have created their own deity. Well God is the judge, he is the only one who has the right to judge. I do not know how he feels about sexual orientation, but is he not the creator of everyone?

I don't know. No one knows. No one can know.

Isn't homosexuality natural to some, why would God burn people for what they are? What's so different from that from killing blacks for being black or something along those lines.

God said they were fools, he didn't instruct his followers to go out and judge others. I think we should respect everyone no matter who they are.

No, but you can say they are fools because god says so.

Is someone a fool because he is a fool or is it because god said he is a fool?

The Bible can be used as template by those who wish to misinterpret, but God said anyone who removed words from the book or altered it any way will be punished.

Pretty much anyone who translated the Bible into English. Consequently, anyone who read the English bible.

I believe Christianity is successful because God has implanted us with a desire to see him out, that and because it is the truth if ou will.

Oh, you dare deny centuries old religions like Hindus? Who gives you the authority to say what is truth and what is not?

Try reading the OP. This is exactly what the OP is warning us against. From this, I think it's these types of arguments are what led to the holocaust. I want to prevent it again by showing that your god is a human construct and that only human actions matter in this world.

[Triestina]

Okay..some of you find it easy to believe there's an "evil" God..we have a name for that it's called the devil.So to those that find it easy to believe this..then surely you must accept that there is a "good" God,no?Because surely one cannot exist without the other,right?

[Triestina]

Isn't homosexuality natural to some, why would God burn people for what they are? What's so different from that from killing blacks for being black or something along those lines.

God said they were fools, he didn't instruct his followers to go out and judge others. I think we should respect everyone no matter who they are.

No, but you can say they are fools because god says so.

Is someone a fool because he is a fool or is it because god said he is a fool?

Christians and I'm pretty sure most religions believe that we,as humans,cannot judge if a particular human being deserves to die/must be sent straight to hell or otherwise...thus we cannot say "Oh this man is a fool,he must die..let's save God some time and finish him off ourselves".This is what I know of my religion and most other religions(from friends)

[Sammich Republic]

Tragedy presumes a certain dignity to the victim, a dignity that was entirely absent in the Final Solution . . . To imagine such a confrontation in Auschwitz is to basically make fun of the victim. It presupposes a certain level of dignity that simply wasn't there.

I would disagree.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Kolbe.html

[Arbites]

Christians and I'm pretty sure most religions believe that we,as humans,cannot judge if a particular human being deserves to die/must be sent straight to hell or otherwise...thus we cannot say "Oh this man is a fool,he must die..let's save God some time and finish him off ourselves".This is what I know of my religion and most other religions(from friends)

That doesn't seem to stop religion-motivated bigotry, hate crimes, and war, now does it? People belonging to one group or another have been judging 'outsiders' since the dawn of time. Religion has been one of the most common causes of war, right up there with nationalism and "I really like the look of that land."

[Fartsniffage]

I do believe that God died in Auschwitz.

But only because the Jew are right and he was living in Munich in 1941.

[New Sapienta]

Good thing I don't belive it gets mixed up in human affairs

[Trotskylvania]

Good thing I don't belive it gets mixed up in human affairs

80 percent of Americans, however, do believe that God is perfectly fine in interfering with the affairs of mortals.

[New Sapienta]

Good thing I don't belive it gets mixed up in human affairs

80 percent of Americans, however, do believe that God is perfectly fine in interfering with the affairs of mortals.

Good thing I'm not 80% of americans

[Distruzio]

Was the bible written by men educated in the ways of contemporary sciences? Am I to presume that b/c St. Paul was not a mathematician that I am to scoff at his input on the role of the Church in my life? I'm honestly not mocking you. I'm genuinely asking how contemporary sciences and knowledge expose the bible as anything more than a non-scientific collection of non-scientific texts.

You see, if the bible was "divinely inspired" or the "word of god" it should probably be as factually accurate as possible in mundane affairs.

But there's a deeper problem than its scientific inaccuracies: It's not even internally consistent. The bible cannot even tell a consistent story within itself.

I see. Was the bible written by a single man? By a collection of men in a single lifetime? By a collection of men across many lifetimes in the same culture at least? No? Then what are you complaining about. The texts that make up the holy Scripture were written by uneducated men, divinely inspired or not, who did their absolute best to describe the wonders they saw.

When an infant has been raised with a dog, and knows no other animal save what a cat looks like, then he would he forgiven for mistaking a coyote, a wolf, or a deer for a dog, wouldn't he?

[Praetox]

You see, if the bible was "divinely inspired" or the "word of god" it should probably be as factually accurate as possible in mundane affairs.

But there's a deeper problem than its scientific inaccuracies: It's not even internally consistent. The bible cannot even tell a consistent story within itself.

I see. Was the bible written by a single man? By a collection of men in a single lifetime? By a collection of men across many lifetimes in the same culture at least? No? Then what are you complaining about. The texts that make up the holy Scripture were written by uneducated men, divinely inspired or not, who did their absolute best to describe the wonders they saw.

When an infant has been raised with a dog, and knows no other animal save what a cat looks like, then he would he forgiven for mistaking a coyote, a wolf, or a deer for a dog, wouldn't he?

What, then, would be the difference between "divinely inspired" and "having an overactive imagination"? And how exactly would you know?

[Distruzio]

Good thing I don't belive it gets mixed up in human affairs

80 percent of Americans, however, do believe that God is perfectly fine in interfering with the affairs of mortals.

Trots, will you weigh in on my first post in this thread, please. It is actually on topic.

[Distruzio]

What, then, would be the difference between "divinely inspired" and "having an overactive imagination"? And how exactly would you know?

The difference would lie in the religious preferences of the individual. I would know based on my trust that the Church has not lied to me. Of it has, then I believe falsely. It is that simple.

[Praetox]

What, then, would be the difference between "divinely inspired" and "having an overactive imagination"? And how exactly would you know?

The difference would lie in the religious preferences of the individual. I would know based on my trust that the Church has not lied to me. Of it has, then I believe falsely. It is that simple.

I don't really get your meaning. It seems that divine inspiration isn't a matter of preference. One is either divinely inspired or not.

[Distruzio]

The difference would lie in the religious preferences of the individual. I would know based on my trust that the Church has not lied to me. Of it has, then I believe falsely. It is that simple.

I don't really get your meaning. It seems that divine inspiration isn't a matter of preference. One is either divinely inspired or not.

True. But that bares no effect on whether an individual recognizes or accepts it as such.

[Trotskylvania]

Trots, when considering questions of ethics and applying your perceptions of them to the Almighty, one must always err on the side of humility before such power. I do not know the "why" to any of your questions. What I do know is that when I view the 20th century, from the genocides in the wake of the Great War to the Holocaust to the routine genocides of other totalitarian and authoritarianism regimes, I don't see God as the great architect of those events. I see the State. I see men submitting themselves willingly to the supremacy of State over God, and the results of such choices are, to me, quite evident.

I don't see the Holocaust as proof that God died, per se, but as a warning that men will do anything when they forget their humility before God.

Both the Nazist and Stalinist regimes supposed themselves supreme, even to God. Democidal we're, then, inevitable.

The problem, I think, is in viewing God and State as discrete animating principles. They really are not, and on the fundamental level, any attempt to express a universal, divine principle in the material world is a road to totalitarianism.

This ties back to my previous thread, "If there is no god, then everything is prohibited": In a very real sense, the only coherent definition of blasphemy is for someone to claim any knowledge of the divine

[Praetox]

I don't really get your meaning. It seems that divine inspiration isn't a matter of preference. One is either divinely inspired or not.

True. But that bares no effect on whether an individual recognizes or accepts it as such.

Fair enough, so then how does faith become certainty? When you say the Bible is divinely inspired, are you certain or merely faithful?

[Crystalcliff Point]

I see. Was the bible written by a single man? By a collection of men in a single lifetime? By a collection of men across many lifetimes in the same culture at least? No? Then what are you complaining about. The texts that make up the holy Scripture were written by uneducated men, divinely inspired or not, who did their absolute best to describe the wonders they saw.

If a deity was giving them information (Which the bible says it was) then it shouldn't matter how many men wrote it, over how long.

When an infant has been raised with a dog, and knows no other animal save what a cat looks like, then he would he forgiven for mistaking a coyote, a wolf, or a deer for a dog, wouldn't he?

I'd think an all-knowing deity would know the difference.

[Vestr-Norig]

Using the holocost against the excistence of God, is a poor argument. Humans is, and were created free; with a free will to do as we will. We have been blessed with the opportunity to decide for ourselves what to do, though, many has aboused this blessing, such as Hitler (who btw was not a Christian by faith). It was humans, and humans only's fault what happened.

[Crystalcliff Point]

such as Hitler (who btw was not a Christian by faith). It was humans, and humans only's fault what happened.

Who are you to dictate what another person believed or didn't believe? He professed his Christianity, and that should be sufficient unless you have compelling evidence to prove he didn't believe what he claimed.

[Trotskylvania]

Using the holocost against the excistence of God, is a poor argument. Humans is, and were created free; with a free will to do as we will. We have been blessed with the opportunity to decide for ourselves what to do, though, many has aboused this blessing, such as Hitler (who btw was not a Christian by faith). It was humans, and humans only's fault what happened.

Even if free will hadn't already been rendered metaphysically impossible, this would still be a cop-out.