God died in Auschwitz

[Genivaria]

Emphasis on EQUALITY. Not female dominance.
I've been rather sensitive on that ever since I found this page:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... maleOnMale

I've never been a fan of female dominance, minority dominance, etc. I'm for EQUALITY. For instance, despite being black, I hate that some people think that a black person with no qualifications for a job should get picked over a white person who is better for the job simply for being black. It's stupid and against the entire purpose of people like MLK's teachings/wishes.

Agreed. Affirmative Action does the opposite of what it was intended nowadays. I'm one of the few liberals who is opposed to it.

[Mavorpen]

I've never been a fan of female dominance, minority dominance, etc. I'm for EQUALITY. For instance, despite being black, I hate that some people think that a black person with no qualifications for a job should get picked over a white person who is better for the job simply for being black. It's stupid and against the entire purpose of people like MLK's teachings/wishes.

Agreed. Affirmative Action does the opposite of what it was intended nowadays. I'm one of the few liberals who is opposed to it.

Our intentions tend to end up not what we have expected unfortunately. Anyway, this is pretty off topic and I gotta get some sleep lol. Night.

[Seperates]

Humans do naturally prefer monogamous relationships... but that doesn't mean that they should be legally enforced...

There are those that would disagree with the monogamous relationships, especially men.

Well, I'm a man. And I can only deal with one bitch at a time. (Btw I am completely kidding. I love my girlfriend and am so lucky to be dating her. I respect her completely, and because of that I engage her in lively debates over random issues, usually ones that she iniciates. Call me whipped, but both of us know that we can leave at anytime, so there is no pressure to try to make the other one happy... if we have to try, then we really don't care about each other. So long as we both work towards our own selfish goals in the relationship we will both come out on top.)

[Genivaria]

Agreed. Affirmative Action does the opposite of what it was intended nowadays. I'm one of the few liberals who is opposed to it.

Our intentions tend to end up not what we have expected unfortunately. Anyway, this is pretty off topic and I gotta get some sleep lol. Night.

Good night Comrade.

[Seperates]

Agreed. Affirmative Action does the opposite of what it was intended nowadays. I'm one of the few liberals who is opposed to it.

Our intentions tend to end up not what we have expected unfortunately. Anyway, this is pretty off topic and I gotta get some sleep lol. Night.

Peace, man.

[Distruzio]

Mmhmm... as if the Third Reich wasn't overtly Christian. (Not Hitler... I don't know what the fuck he was... but you cannot deny the Christian overtones of the Regime itself).

The Nazi regime was far from a Christian State. Don't be silly. A core tenet of nazism is supremacy of the state. I haven't read any of their literature that suggested God was supreme.... can you point me to where He was mentioned in that manner?

[Antalla]

Ok I'm jumping in 35 pages late and I don't know if this point has already been made and I'm sorry if it has but I didn't feel like wasting a week of my life reading the debate so far. Anyways if I may sum up the opinions that atheists have expressed so far:

God didn't stop the holocaust therefore god must be evil, powerless, or nonexistent.

This opinion is true if one looks at the situation as any moral human being should that is; something bad is happening, I have the power to stop it, therefore I must stop it.

But that misses the whole point of Abrahamic Religion, the after life. You see the life we're living now here on earth isn't true life it's just an entrance test to heaven. If we live a good and moral life here then we prove ourselves worthy of heaven. Although God truly wishes all of us to enter into heaven he knows that not all of us will prove ourselves worthy of it, so he tests us. All Hardships, all temptations, all evil in the world is merely a test and yes a lot of these tests are actually created by humans.

To me the Holocaust is a test. It was test for the Nazis, could they choice the right path and defend the victims or the easy path and gas them? It was test for those who suffered through it, could they maintain there faith in God when he seemed to abandon them? And finally it is a test for us here today, can we look at such senseless cruelty and still believe in a loving God?

I realize that, this view must seem cruel to many people who don't believe in God and I sympathize with you, cause yes it kinda seems dickish even to me. But ultimately God has a different priority from you and I. He doesn't so much care about our happiness in this life as he does in granting us eternal happiness in the next.

[Mocenok]

i hate holocaust. people only care for those jews who died in camps. What about other people what about 60 million casualties through the whole war? What about my family? Have you ever thought about them? no, just some stupid jews who died always in some stupid wars, you ask why? Because they always had money and for war you need lots of gold. So forget about holocaust and start thinking about every dead person from WWII.

[Upper Crystaldom]

So you're saying G-d shouldhave prevented this. How about all murders? Rapes? World hunger? Crappy sitcoms? I'm sorry but this is a statement that allows people to avoid any responsibility for their actions. People do evil things. G-d made us in his image, loved us, and provided for us. He asks one thing of us and we ignore it and get tossed outta Eden. He gave us a planet we're destroying. He gave us the ten commandments, which if adhered to, would prevent all evil. He gave us free will (perhaps the greatest gift He's given us) and of our own free will we choose to commit monstrous acts to one another. Seems to me He's already provided everything he could have to avoid the holocaust, we just act like ungrateful children who throw away their toys and have the audacity to ask for something better. Ridiculous.

[Tlaceceyaya]

So you're saying G-d shouldhave prevented this. How about all murders? Rapes? World hunger? Crappy sitcoms? I'm sorry but this is a statement that allows people to avoid any responsibility for their actions. People do evil things. G-d made us in his image, loved us, and provided for us. He asks one thing of us and we ignore it and get tossed outta Eden. He gave us a planet we're destroying. He gave us the ten commandments, which if adhered to, would prevent all evil. He gave us free will (perhaps the greatest gift He's given us) and of our own free will we choose to commit monstrous acts to one another. Seems to me He's already provided everything he could have to avoid the holocaust, we just act like ungrateful children who throw away their toys and have the audacity to ask for something better. Ridiculous.

Why do you censor the word god?
Also, why do you think that this god of yours made humans in its image?

[Genivaria]

I just had to put this here.

[Risottia]

God cannot be compared to a person, is my point

So god has no will and no intellect?

[Kirrig]

God cannot be compared to a person, is my point

So god has no will and no intellect?

Possibly, this whole Aushwitz thing has shown he has no morals.

And if rain is God's piss, what is snow?

[Distruzio]

So god has no will and no intellect?

Possibly, this whole Aushwitz thing has shown he has no morals.

And if rain is God's piss, what is snow?

Nonsense. The Holocaust shows tthat God does not share YOUR sense of do-good moral adventurism masquerading as morality. One could easily make the same accusation of God b/c humanity was created without the capital stock necessary to sustain 7 billion lives on the planet that we currently have. Obviously, then, from time immemorial, God has seen fit to allow humanity to wollow in relative squalor compared to today. What an immoral dousche, amirite?

[Pope Joan]

Dorothy Soelle says that God was driven crazy by the Holocaust, and to me that seems as reasonable as anything.

http://tjx.sagepub.com/content/105/826/265.extract

[Mavorpen]

Possibly, this whole Aushwitz thing has shown he has no morals.

And if rain is God's piss, what is snow?

Nonsense. The Holocaust shows tthat God does not share YOUR sense of do-good moral adventurism masquerading as morality. One could easily make the same accusation of God b/c humanity was created without the capital stock necessary to sustain 7 billion lives on the planet that we currently have. Obviously, then, from time immemorial, God has seen fit to allow humanity to wollow in relative squalor compared to today. What an immoral dousche, amirite?

Yes, that actually does scream "I'm a douche." since god is supposed to be all knowing and would have known our population would grow to be so large. He's not only then responsible for us but also for the environment of which we are destroying. Don't give me the,"This life/world is just temporary!" Fine, let's ramp up our destruction. Let's have a nuclear war, lets slash and burn forests 10 fold. There's no downside, we have another perfect world after this! It's REALLY pathetic you don't understand the dangerous implications of your silly beliefs.

[Distruzio]

Yes, that actually does scream "I'm a douche." since god is supposed to be all knowing and would have known our population would grow to be so large. He's not only then responsible for us but also for the environment of which we are destroying. Don't give me the,"This life/world is just temporary!" Fine, let's ramp up our destruction. Let's have a nuclear war, lets slash and burn forests 10 fold. There's no downside, we have another perfect world after this! It's REALLY pathetic you don't understand the dangerous implications of your silly beliefs.

I think that you make quite a number of assumptions about my beliefs. I assure you that I do NOT hold those beliefs you accuse me of. I am a Christian. I am not a Protestant. So I don't hold such naive heretical views. I am Orthodox.

The world is NOT temporary. It is scarce. That makes it valuable beyond compare. Human life is equally scarce. It, too, is valuable b/c of that fact. I agree that God holds a special responsibility for humanity's progress... though not in the way you believe. He promised to pick up the pieces of our broken lives, that He'd always be there. He NEVER promised to fix all our woes.

[The USOT]

Mmhmm... as if the Third Reich wasn't overtly Christian. (Not Hitler... I don't know what the fuck he was... but you cannot deny the Christian overtones of the Regime itself).

Actually most would be inclined to extremely deny that the Nazi regime had christian overtones.

Ignoring efforts on behalf of the party to try and destabalise the christian influence in the country (e.g. the attempts to replace the cross in bavaria with the swastika and the efforts of Heinrich Himmler, leader of the Gestapo) the party heavily endorsed a pagan identity for the country.

Much of their propoganda was based on Siegfreid, hercules, sparta etc (with much of their art reflecting these themes e.g. the adaptation of the Judgement of Paris

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=judgement+of+paris+nazi&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&biw=1024&bih=638&tbm=isch&tbnid=v4NX3gLmTcamfM:&imgrefurl=http://www.american-buddha.com/nazi.naziculturemosse.12.htm&docid=kowk0gpvOuqH2M&imgurl=http://www.american-buddha.com/nazi.culture5.gif&w=1000&h=777&ei=2RoYT868FcuAtQbxpODYDQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=106&vpy=149&dur=434&hovh=198&hovw=255&tx=183&ty=129&sig=113878736367954759917&page=1&tbnh=137&tbnw=187&start=0&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

) and they even had state sponsered pagan churches (which if I remember correctly gave party rewards for becoming a member of such, but I dont have any sources or examples that come to mind).


Of course there were many christians within the reich (Hell, even the USSR had a lot of christians during WW2), and indeed there was a certain level of leeway to certain catholics within the reich, but to say that it had extremly strong Christian overtones suggests a very poor understanding of culture within Nazi Germany

[Risottia]

Possibly, this whole Aushwitz thing has shown he has no morals.
And if rain is God's piss, what is snow?

Nonsense. ...

The problem is with the original claim that God isn't a person.
Being a person means having will and intellect to some degree at least. OR being a person defined through legal fiction.

Hence, saying that "God isn't a person" means that he has no will and no intellect AND that he cannot be defined as a person, not even through legal fiction.
This means that if God DOES have will and intellect, he is a person.
Tertium non datur.

Having morals, on the other hand, isn't necessary to define a person. It's desirable, but not necessary.

[Risottia]

Excuse me, but I don't remember "Satan" and "Lucifer" being named in Genesis. I remember the serpent, that is, a snake.

the deciver. it is clear to go on later to explain that Satan was the serpent.

Kindly source thy claim by quoting. KJV will do.

Never the less, the idea is repeated in Revalations

You mean that book that even the Nicenes were about to reject as canon? Come on. And, again, source by quoting.

[Socialist Great Britain]

I find it difficult to explain my mindset, When I was a little boy I asked 'Why doesn't Santa gives presents to those children, who we give shoe boxes to', my mom had to tell me that he doesn't exist. Later in life when learning about WW2, we had to learn about the holocaust and I asked a similar question 'Why did god allow that to happen', the teacher answered that he may not exist. I until my later teenage years I was a typical atheist with an unquestionable 'faith' in science and evolution. But I believe now that any thought on God, even against the idea of it is pointless and metaphysically meaningless (thank you A J Ayer). As Phrenology gave way to Psychology and Alchemy gave way to Chemistry, Religion should give way to Philosophy or people will struggle to match experiences to a stubborn mindset rather than creating a mindset from experiences (emotional development). Sorry I am ranting, for me anyway God died in Auschwitz definitely (and should stay just that).

[Mavorpen]

The world is NOT temporary. It is scarce. That makes it valuable beyond compare. Human life is equally scarce. It, too, is valuable b/c of that fact. I agree that God holds a special responsibility for humanity's progress... though not in the way you believe. He promised to pick up the pieces of our broken lives, that He'd always be there. He NEVER promised to fix all our woes.

Human life is not scarce. There are 7 billion of us... human life is not valuable, dunno where you get that false assumption from. Broken lives? Why does he only fix the lives of those who live in developed countries? What about Somalia, Iran, Iraq, and every other developing country? You would think that an all powerful loving being would promise to take care of hid creations. The more Christians spew this nonsense the more I hate the fact you brainwash kids into believing it.

[Distruzio]

Human life is not scarce. There are 7 billion of us... human life is not valuable, dunno where you get that false assumption from. Broken lives? Why does he only fix the lives of those who live in developed countries? What about Somalia, Iran, Iraq, and every other developing country? You would think that an all powerful loving being would promise to take care of hid creations. The more Christians spew this nonsense the more I hate the fact you brainwash kids into believing it.

Human life is scarce. You have one, only one. That makes it scarce and quite valuable. Why would God value the first world over less developed nations? This criticism from you is as silly as shouting at the almighty for daring to allow people to he born at anything under 40 years old. By then the average person has developled financial sense enough to survive, real world labor skills valuable enough to warrant full time employment, the ability to drive a car, language skills, etc etc.

Those nations you mention are developing. They are growing just like a fetus to an adult. Even first world nations continue to grow and change. God is present in those matins just as he is present in the more developed nations.

A culture, much like a person, must grow up. Bitching about that fact of life and blaming God for it is a new level of childish naivite that increases my shame at having once also been misotheist like yourself.

[Mavorpen]

Human life is scarce. You have one, only one. That makes it scarce and quite valuable. Why would God value the first world over less developed nations? This criticism from you is as silly as shouting at the almighty for daring to allow people to he born at anything under 40 years old. By then the average person has developled financial sense enough to survive, real world labor skills valuable enough to warrant full time employment, the ability to drive a car, language skills, etc etc.

Those nations you mention are developing. They are growing just like a fetus to an adult. Even first world nations continue to grow and change. God is present in those matins just as he is present in the more developed nations.

A culture, much like a person, must grow up. Bitching about that fact of life and blaming God for it is a new level of childish naivite that increases my shame at having once also been misotheist like yourself.

You do realize that anything living only has one life right? That observation is fairly unimportant. Nice job making a bullshit analogy/comparison that has nothing to do with my point. Let's say your mother has cancer and she happens to become cured and fully healthy. Christians tend to pin this on god. Well, what about the millions on Africa that die from starvation, cancer, malaria, etc? The point is that they suffer far more than we do, and yet for some reason we get more miracles than they do. It's developed countries aren't doing enough to help developing countries. Would it really be that horrible if god gave them a head start?

You really don't understand do you? Christians treat god like a father. Do good fathers play favorites? No. Do good fathers let their children suffer unimaginable pain just to teach them a lesson? No. You're telling me that god makes us suffer so that we can live on our own. That's the equivalent of you having 4 children and giving all otf your time and money to 2 of them and immediately kicking out the other two at birth to "teach them to live for themselves." It's pathetic you're standing up for your gods lazyness. And sorry I'm not a misotheist. Nice try t

[Vazdania]

Human life is scarce. You have one, only one. That makes it scarce and quite valuable. Why would God value the first world over less developed nations? This criticism from you is as silly as shouting at the almighty for daring to allow people to he born at anything under 40 years old. By then the average person has developled financial sense enough to survive, real world labor skills valuable enough to warrant full time employment, the ability to drive a car, language skills, etc etc.

Those nations you mention are developing. They are growing just like a fetus to an adult. Even first world nations continue to grow and change. God is present in those matins just as he is present in the more developed nations.

A culture, much like a person, must grow up. Bitching about that fact of life and blaming God for it is a new level of childish naivite that increases my shame at having once also been misotheist like yourself.

You do realize that anything living only has one life right? That observation is fairly unimportant. Nice job making a bullshit analogy/comparison that has nothing to do with my point. Let's say your mother has cancer and she happens to become cured and fully healthy. Christians tend to pin this on god. Well, what about the millions on Africa that die from starvation, cancer, malaria, etc? The point is that they suffer far more than we do, and yet for some reason we get more miracles than they do. It's developed countries aren't doing enough to help developing countries. Would it really be that horrible if god gave them a head start?

You really don't understand do you? Christians treat god like a father. Do good fathers play favorites? No. Do good fathers let their children suffer unimaginable pain just to teach them a lesson? No. You're telling me that god makes us suffer so that we can live on our own. That's the equivalent of you having 4 children and giving all otf your time and money to 2 of them and immediately kicking out the other two at birth to "teach them to live for themselves." It's pathetic you're standing up for your gods lazyness. And sorry I'm not a misotheist. Nice try t

fallacious argument: ad hominum, please do not feed the fallacious troll XD