ACORN and Prostitution

[JuNii]

personally i would save the investigations for allegations and evidence of actual crimes.

glad you agree then, that those ACORN offices, and all involved, should be investigated.

Edit: forgot some words.

[Non Aligned States]

agreed.

however, that slap better be after the investigation finds that Fox News did break the law*.

*Same with those two 'journalists', and ACORN. do the investigation and make the findings public if innocent/not guilty or begin prosecution if not.

No. I recommend guilt by media. Since Fox has already laid the groundwork, a public announcement of investigations into Fox involvement in the prostitution business due to this most recent "expose" would be a good follow up. The other media groups will do as they normally do. They may not get an official slap, but a taste of their own medicine should be a good wake up call that if they want to sling mud, dirty hands are plenty incriminating.

[JuNii]

agreed.

however, that slap better be after the investigation finds that Fox News did break the law*.

*Same with those two 'journalists', and ACORN. do the investigation and make the findings public if innocent/not guilty or begin prosecution if not.

No. I recommend guilt by media. Since Fox has already laid the groundwork, a public announcement of investigations into Fox involvement in the prostitution business due to this most recent "expose" would be a good follow up. The other media groups will do as they normally do. They may not get an official slap, but a taste of their own medicine should be a good wake up call that if they want to sling mud, dirty hands are plenty incriminating.

the only problem with that is it gives Fox News a medal and validation.

why? as you said, Guilt by Media. means that Fox News not only was fast in breaking the story, but were 'persistant' with it, showing that they actually do care and are better than other news carriers who were not as persistant.

so ACORN is guilty of tax fraud and promoting an illegal and immoral case, and Fox News will come out ahead in the long run.

you know that's what they'll do...

[Non Aligned States]

the only problem with that is it gives Fox News a medal and validation.

why? as you said, Guilt by Media. means that Fox News not only was fast in breaking the story, but were 'persistant' with it, showing that they actually do care and are better than other news carriers who were not as persistant.

so ACORN is guilty of tax fraud and promoting an illegal and immoral case, and Fox News will come out ahead in the long run.

you know that's what they'll do...

Unfortunately true, unless investigations, or allegations put the blame is entirely on Fox News. i.e. they manufactured the news.

[Pevisopolis]

I just watched this on last night's recording of the Daily Show, and immediately thought "Why didn't I see this on NSG?"

[Everyone Loves Cats]

agreed.

however, that slap better be after the investigation finds that Fox News did break the law*.

*Same with those two 'journalists', and ACORN. do the investigation and make the findings public if innocent/not guilty or begin prosecution if not.

No. I recommend guilt by media. Since Fox has already laid the groundwork, a public announcement of investigations into Fox involvement in the prostitution business due to this most recent "expose" would be a good follow up. The other media groups will do as they normally do. They may not get an official slap, but a taste of their own medicine should be a good wake up call that if they want to sling mud, dirty hands are plenty incriminating.

I have to comment on this, your argument really is a straw man. Fox news is not the originator. They did not hire the investigators to do this sting. The only ties they have is that those two "filmmakers" leaked their videos to Fox news first.
Acorn on the other hand, did in fact employ the people in question; and possibly provided them with at least a modicum of training (like every job I first joined). The investigation should be "are the actions of the employees their own independant actions, or the result of trainings of directions from above?"

[Ashmoria]

I just watched this on last night's recording of the Daily Show, and immediately thought "Why didn't I see this on NSG?"

lol

and it is one of the more correctly titled threads on the first 2 pages.

[Non Aligned States]

I have to comment on this, your argument really is a straw man. Fox news is not the originator. They did not hire the investigators to do this sting. The only ties they have is that those two "filmmakers" leaked their videos to Fox news first.

It's not like factual truth has stopped Fox news from putting outright lies on their news. So why should they be afforded better treatment?

I do like irony after all. And if anyone wants to use this as a "Better than some nebulous them" argument, do remember that I like my irony to be specific and not indiscriminate.

[JuNii]

I have to comment on this, your argument really is a straw man. Fox news is not the originator. They did not hire the investigators to do this sting. The only ties they have is that those two "filmmakers" leaked their videos to Fox news first.

It's not like factual truth has stopped Fox news from putting outright lies on their news. So why should they be afforded better treatment?

I do like irony after all. And if anyone wants to use this as a "Better than some nebulous them" argument, do remember that I like my irony to be specific and not indiscriminate.

who said 'better treatment'. if this video surfaced on CNN (which some say it did) wouldn't you be demanding at least an investigation to either prove or disprove what the video shows?

[Non Aligned States]

who said 'better treatment'.

It's a future disclaimer against the use of this point in the whole "torture/no torture" argument.

if this video surfaced on CNN (which some say it did) wouldn't you be demanding at least an investigation to either prove or disprove what the video shows?

I'd demand an investigation on the truth of the matter. If it turns out to be false, deliberately edited to be put out of context, or otherwise manufactured, I'd demand that CNN publicly apologize for airing defamatory lies about someone. I'd demand the same from Fox, but in the times that I've seen Fox put outright lies on air, I've not found them publicly apologizing for it. So other methods of redressing this must be taken.

[JuNii]

who said 'better treatment'.

It's a future disclaimer against the use of this point in the whole "torture/no torture" argument.

ah... carry on then.

if this video surfaced on CNN (which some say it did) wouldn't you be demanding at least an investigation to either prove or disprove what the video shows?

I'd demand an investigation on the truth of the matter. If it turns out to be false, deliberately edited to be put out of context, or otherwise manufactured, I'd demand that CNN publicly apologize for airing defamatory lies about someone. I'd demand the same from Fox, but in the times that I've seen Fox put outright lies on air, I've not found them publicly apologizing for it. So other methods of redressing this must be taken.

and for that, an investigation is needed... not only on the video but those offices as well.

[Non Aligned States]

and for that, an investigation is needed... not only on the video but those offices as well.

Not just ACORN offices, but Fox as well. They may say that they only "received" the video, but one has to determine whether anyone there had a hand in making sure it was made in the first place no?

[Everyone Loves Cats]

San Diego this time.... it's up to 5.

[Allbeama]

As this has developed I no longer think its a fake or a complete stinking pile of bull manure, but I doubt this is widespread and goes all the way to Obama, it seems there were a few bad apples, and they are being pruned so maybe if this is going to be made a big deal of, how about we also turn a scrutinizing eye on things the GOP likes?

[Straughn]

makes more sense for the right-wing crazies. nm just can't express ideas well.

Well, s/he certainly makes their best presentation that ideas aren't their wheelhouse, that's for sure.
Funny how i'm always led to think of Dilbert whenever ACORN gets mentioned.

[Treznor]

I have to comment on this, your argument really is a straw man. Fox news is not the originator. They did not hire the investigators to do this sting. The only ties they have is that those two "filmmakers" leaked their videos to Fox news first.
Acorn on the other hand, did in fact employ the people in question; and possibly provided them with at least a modicum of training (like every job I first joined). The investigation should be "are the actions of the employees their own independant actions, or the result of trainings of directions from above?"

There are a couple of problems with this. First of all, Fox News was offered the footage first because Fox News regularly airs tripe like this. Would these "journalists" be so quick to offer the same bullshit to CNN or MSNBC? Probably not, not because it casts ACORN in a bad light but because the investigative work was so incredibly shoddy. All they have is video of ACORN employees making fun of them with straight faces. They did no additional legwork to verify others who have received similarly bad advice, nothing to corroborate the story. They just created a sensationalist smear video and sent it to the media outlet they knew would welcome it without question.

Second of all was the idea that these are independent journalists. They may not be officially on the Fox News payroll, but who else is going to pay them for their work? ABC? CBS? BBC? Did they go to all this effort not knowing if anyone would accept the result, or did they get a wink and a nod from Fox News telling them to make it good and they're guaranteed air time? After all the accusations Fox News has made about ACORN in the past, it's not like they weren't sure of the way their audience would receive it.

This, boys and girls, is the state of journalism today. It's not about reporting news so much as it is making news to report. This is why we object to this smear campaign against ACORN. Manufactured evidence does not create guilt.

[Jocabia]

ah, so giving someone advice on how to doctor your tax returns when it's your job to assist people with taxes is not wrong? gotcha.

Wrong =/= illegal.

What exactly is the law you're claiming they should be investigated for breaking?

[JuNii]

ah, so giving someone advice on how to doctor your tax returns when it's your job to assist people with taxes is not wrong? gotcha.

Wrong =/= illegal.

What exactly is the law you're claiming they should be investigated for breaking?

ah, so only when it's proven to be ILLEGAL will an investigation be instigated. Gotcha.

[Treznor]

John Cole highlights what might be the most telling aspect of all of this: demands for a "Special Prosecutor" into Obama's so-called "relationship with ACORN" from the very same circles that vehemently objected to investigations into torture, illegal government spying, politicized prosecutions, military contractor theft, Lewis Libby's obstruction of justice, and virtually every other instance of Bush-era act of criminality. Those, of course, are the very same people who, before that, demanded endless inquiries into Whitewater and Vince Foster's murder. There's nothing more valuable than petty, dramatic "scandals" to distract attention from what is actually taking place.

[Gauthier]

John Cole highlights what might be the most telling aspect of all of this: demands for a "Special Prosecutor" into Obama's so-called "relationship with ACORN" from the very same circles that vehemently objected to investigations into torture, illegal government spying, politicized prosecutions, military contractor theft, Lewis Libby's obstruction of justice, and virtually every other instance of Bush-era act of criminality. Those, of course, are the very same people who, before that, demanded endless inquiries into Whitewater and Vince Foster's murder. There's nothing more valuable than petty, dramatic "scandals" to distract attention from what is actually taking place.

The acronym to define it all: IOKIYAR.

[Farnhamia]

John Cole highlights what might be the most telling aspect of all of this: demands for a "Special Prosecutor" into Obama's so-called "relationship with ACORN" from the very same circles that vehemently objected to investigations into torture, illegal government spying, politicized prosecutions, military contractor theft, Lewis Libby's obstruction of justice, and virtually every other instance of Bush-era act of criminality. Those, of course, are the very same people who, before that, demanded endless inquiries into Whitewater and Vince Foster's murder. There's nothing more valuable than petty, dramatic "scandals" to distract attention from what is actually taking place.

No kidding, Trez. Didn't Kenneth Starr spend $40 million of our "valuable" tax dollars back in the 90s?

[Ashmoria]

ah, so giving someone advice on how to doctor your tax returns when it's your job to assist people with taxes is not wrong? gotcha.

Wrong =/= illegal.

What exactly is the law you're claiming they should be investigated for breaking?

ah, so only when it's proven to be ILLEGAL will an investigation be instigated. Gotcha.

no it doesnt have to be proven to be illegal for it to be investigated. thats the point of investigation. but the ALLEGATIONS have to be of something illegal.

is humoring the next borat wannabe illegal?

[Jocabia]

ah, so giving someone advice on how to doctor your tax returns when it's your job to assist people with taxes is not wrong? gotcha.

Wrong =/= illegal.

What exactly is the law you're claiming they should be investigated for breaking?

ah, so only when it's proven to be ILLEGAL will an investigation be instigated. Gotcha.

No, when there is some evidence of a crime. What crime are you saying this is evidence of?

[Jocabia]

ah, so giving someone advice on how to doctor your tax returns when it's your job to assist people with taxes is not wrong? gotcha.

Wrong =/= illegal.

What exactly is the law you're claiming they should be investigated for breaking?

ah, so only when it's proven to be ILLEGAL will an investigation be instigated. Gotcha.

no it doesnt have to be proven to be illegal for it to be investigated. thats the point of investigation. but the ALLEGATIONS have to be of something illegal.

is humoring the next borat wannabe illegal?

Yeah, imagine that. I know during the Bush era we got the impression that investigators could just start searching and hoping they turn up something illegal, but doing so is not within the bounds of the law. They have to actually demonstrate that there is some level of evidence to warrant further digging before they have any real authority to collect the kind of information it would take to prove a crime was committed here. That evidence must suggest something illegal happened, not just something 'wrong". Roseanne Barr singing the national anthem was wrong. It is not, however, illegal.

[JuNii]

ah, so giving someone advice on how to doctor your tax returns when it's your job to assist people with taxes is not wrong? gotcha.

Wrong =/= illegal.

What exactly is the law you're claiming they should be investigated for breaking?

ah, so only when it's proven to be ILLEGAL will an investigation be instigated. Gotcha.

no it doesnt have to be proven to be illegal for it to be investigated. thats the point of investigation. but the ALLEGATIONS have to be of something illegal.

is humoring the next borat wannabe illegal?

so, the ACORN person, giving tips on how to disguise a brothel of underaged persons is not 'something illegal'?
an ACORN person giving tips on how to doctor their TAX RECORDS is not 'something illegal'?

joke or not, those tips and suggestions are portraying an illegal activity and should be treated as such.

to blow it off as a 'Fox News' stunt is irrisponsible and down right stupid.