
by Trotskylvania » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:16 pm
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

by Four-sided Triangles » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:20 pm

by Desperate Measures » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:21 pm

by Azrael » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:24 pm
Desperate Measures wrote:Better to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do or do the right thing because you'll go to heaven for doing it?

by Tsaraine » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:30 pm
Four-sided Triangles wrote:It sure as hell applies to me. The more morally reflective I am, the more I grow to hate everything about myself. Every action that most people would dismiss as "no big deal" I inflate into a massive issue that proves I'm a depraved pile of shit. Frankly, trying to become more moral has made me about as miserable as possible. I absolutely hate myself and sometimes I think I deserve to die.
Desperate Measures wrote:Better to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do or do the right thing because you'll go to heaven for doing it?

by Azrael » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:32 pm
Tsaraine wrote:Four-sided Triangles wrote:It sure as hell applies to me. The more morally reflective I am, the more I grow to hate everything about myself. Every action that most people would dismiss as "no big deal" I inflate into a massive issue that proves I'm a depraved pile of shit. Frankly, trying to become more moral has made me about as miserable as possible. I absolutely hate myself and sometimes I think I deserve to die.
Yes, yes, we get that you apply a ridiculous double standard to yourself as opposed to everyone else. We get that you are in desperate need of qualified psychiatric help. We don't need another thread on it - and even if we did, this is not the thread for it.

by Desperate Measures » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:33 pm
Tsaraine wrote:Desperate Measures wrote:Better to do the right thing because it's the right thing to do or do the right thing because you'll go to heaven for doing it?
"Do the gods love it because it is good, or is it good because the gods love it?" - Socrates
In the absence of god, we are free to judge things on their own merits, as opposed to how they line up to arbitrary edicts. I believe in the former (that moral actions are moral independent of being approved of by supernatural forces); the latter would essentially mean that rape, murder etc are OK if they're commanded by divine powers (something we see demonstrated a lot in the Old Testament) - a stance I disagree with entirely. "Just following (God's) orders" is no excuse. To paraphrase Galileo, "I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with the capacity for moral judgement has intended us to forgo their use."

by Maurepas » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:35 pm

by Odins Scandinavia » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:39 pm
Four-sided Triangles wrote:It sure as hell applies to me. The more morally reflective I am, the more I grow to hate everything about myself. Every action that most people would dismiss as "no big deal" I inflate into a massive issue that proves I'm a depraved pile of shit. Frankly, trying to become more moral has made me about as miserable as possible. I absolutely hate myself and sometimes I think I deserve to die.

by Maurepas » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:50 pm
Odins Scandinavia wrote:Four-sided Triangles wrote:It sure as hell applies to me. The more morally reflective I am, the more I grow to hate everything about myself. Every action that most people would dismiss as "no big deal" I inflate into a massive issue that proves I'm a depraved pile of shit. Frankly, trying to become more moral has made me about as miserable as possible. I absolutely hate myself and sometimes I think I deserve to die.
the Vatican is considering you for a very exiting position as pope. [/joke].
if there is no morals without god, i guess there goes the massive list of secular states.
by Bombadil » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:13 am

by GeneralHaNor » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:34 am
Trotskylvania wrote:It is a common refrain, repeated often by the religious right, in our modern "liberal hedonist times", the maxim usually (falsely) attributed to Dostoyevsky in Brother's Karamazov that if God doesn't exist, than everything is permitted is especially true. From millions killed in Gulags, up to animal sex and *gasp* gay marriage: this is where we end if we deny all transcendent authority that poses unsurpassable limits to human behavior. In absence of this, there is no obstacle to exploit one's neighbor, use them as tools, or even worse, have anal sex with them or kill them.
Jacques Lacan, I think, has probably the best rejoinder to this simplistic analysis: "Quite evidently, a naïve notion, for we analysts know full well that if God doesn't exist, then nothing at all is permitted any longer. Neurotics prove that to us every day."*
The absence of God as a transcendental superego means the buck stops with you. Thus, you are responsible for the consequences of all your actions, and there is no paternal figure to set right was is wrong, or to absolve you of your guilt. That responsibility is yours and yours alone.
This is why any self-reflective atheist is incredibly self-conscious of their own actions. We build a a very complex set of self-imposed limitations and behavioral restraints, ever conscious that this is the one and only life, and our actions can have permanent consequences. And, conversely, it is the religious fundamentalist, in perceiving a totalizing meaning for existence and the state of the world, conceives of himself as an instrument of this higher purpose, and thus is free to do whatever he feels is necessary to fulfill that higher purpose, free of guilt or shame.
What say you, NSG?
* Jacques Lacan, The Ego in Freud's Theory and in the Technique of Psychoanalysis, New York: Norton 1988, p. 128.
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.

by GeneralHaNor » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:37 am
Four-sided Triangles wrote:It sure as hell applies to me. The more morally reflective I am, the more I grow to hate everything about myself. Every action that most people would dismiss as "no big deal" I inflate into a massive issue that proves I'm a depraved pile of shit. Frankly, trying to become more moral has made me about as miserable as possible. I absolutely hate myself and sometimes I think I deserve to die.
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.

by The Lost Ships » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:01 am
Desperate Measures wrote:Tsaraine wrote:
"Do the gods love it because it is good, or is it good because the gods love it?" - Socrates
In the absence of god, we are free to judge things on their own merits, as opposed to how they line up to arbitrary edicts. I believe in the former (that moral actions are moral independent of being approved of by supernatural forces); the latter would essentially mean that rape, murder etc are OK if they're commanded by divine powers (something we see demonstrated a lot in the Old Testament) - a stance I disagree with entirely. "Just following (God's) orders" is no excuse. To paraphrase Galileo, "I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with the capacity for moral judgement has intended us to forgo their use."
Pretty much that, exactly. If I'm going to be judged, it will be on my merits and my choices. Anything else is like expecting fairness from a supernatural dictator.

by Herskerstad » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:08 am

by Unidox » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:13 am
Four-sided Triangles wrote:It sure as hell applies to me. The more morally reflective I am, the more I grow to hate everything about myself. Every action that most people would dismiss as "no big deal" I inflate into a massive issue that proves I'm a depraved pile of shit. Frankly, trying to become more moral has made me about as miserable as possible. I absolutely hate myself and sometimes I think I deserve to die.
Caninope wrote:It's NSG. The 20th Circle of LIMBO!
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Always here to ruin the day. 8)
Living Freedom Land wrote:Oh, so now you want gay people to take part in the sacred institution of tax rebates too? You liberals sicken me.
Lacadaemon wrote:I mean, hell, in a properly regulated market, pension stripping schemes like Zynga wouldn't ever have a sniff of an IPO (see Groupon). But it's all wild westy now. Lie down with dogs and so forth.

by Tubbsalot » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:17 am
Unidox wrote:Four-sided Triangles wrote:It sure as hell applies to me. The more morally reflective I am, the more I grow to hate everything about myself. Every action that most people would dismiss as "no big deal" I inflate into a massive issue that proves I'm a depraved pile of shit. Frankly, trying to become more moral has made me about as miserable as possible. I absolutely hate myself and sometimes I think I deserve to die.
I just might be in love with you.

by Unidox » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:19 am
Caninope wrote:It's NSG. The 20th Circle of LIMBO!
Buffett and Colbert wrote:Always here to ruin the day. 8)
Living Freedom Land wrote:Oh, so now you want gay people to take part in the sacred institution of tax rebates too? You liberals sicken me.
Lacadaemon wrote:I mean, hell, in a properly regulated market, pension stripping schemes like Zynga wouldn't ever have a sniff of an IPO (see Groupon). But it's all wild westy now. Lie down with dogs and so forth.

by Disserbia » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:23 am

by The Murtunian Tribes » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:23 am

by Trotskylvania » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:24 am
Herskerstad wrote:I don't really think it answers the question. As ones ability to set a moral code, or their connections with a conscience will differ from a person to person basis. Meaning that, they might or might not adhere to a set of rules that might or might not have connections with basic morality. Individualism can be as much of an exceptional quality as an extraordinary vice, and removing an overarching being that puts a justification beyond our reach to alter, leaves it up to the individual to decide these values. It could quickly go to heil, even with a community consensus which alters from region to region.
I suspect a conscience would be a decent overall basis to form such a moral code on, sadly, it is not something that is equal from person to person. While the 'experience' of existing would not be nihilistic, seeing how we would be subject to feelings, and have to 'create' our own meanings for it. The overarching horizon of it all would be nihilistic without God. Treating both the best among men, to the worst among us with no real difference at the so far inevitable end. Giving only 'difference of opinion' as the consensus of what is right and what is wrong.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

by The Murtunian Tribes » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:24 am
Disserbia wrote:If there is no god, then everything is up for grabs, and that is the most dangerous situation of all.

by Trotskylvania » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:25 am
Disserbia wrote:If there is no god, then everything is up for grabs, and that is the most dangerous situation of all.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

by Trotskylvania » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:27 am

Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

by The Murtunian Tribes » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:28 am
Trotskylvania wrote:The Murtunian Tribes wrote:Did you actually READ the OP, or are you just going to mindlessly blurt out generic theistic reactionary opinion?
Give him a break. It's not like I specifically addressed that very premise in the first paragraph of the OP, right? Next, you're going to be saying we should all read EVERY OP before commenting on them. Jeesh man, chillax
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