Israel upholds citizenship bar for Palestinian spouses

[Fanaglia]

I wouldn't be surprised. As I said, Arabs don't really give a shit about human rights. Lebanon has more internal problems and can't necessarily (or want to for that matter) look after refugees. Lebanon's government also supports Hezbollah, as does Syria's government and spends more time trying to keep the Christians, Druzes and various Islamic sects from tearing one another to peices.

It's really hard to take you seriously when you make racist blanket statements about Muslims and Arabs in almost every post.

I'm an American. I must be an obese creationist with a superiority complex and an insatiable appetite for apple pie and football, because that's how all Americans are. Even worse, I'm a Christian. I must think homosexuals are evil sinners who deserve a good stoning, that every penny I make belongs to me and me alone, and that Ronald Reagan was a saint. Barack Obama is my president. I must love taking it up the ass from people like Goldman Sachs, Koch Industries, and Lockheed Martin. I must think all those corporations have human rights and that their money is the same as speech. I must think that imperialism in the guise of defense or freedom or God or whatever reason we come up with is a good thing. I must be thrilled that my government would grant itself the right to arrest, detain, and torture its own citizens indefinitely without trial, or forgo the red tape of citizenship by simply revoking it, or control the freedom of information on the internet.

Yup. All Americans are the same and they all agree with the things their government does. Just like Syrians and Iranians.

[Tmutarakhan]

Ever stop to think that maybe their neighbors have such a problem with their existence and kill Israeli citizens because of Israel's aggressive posturing and human rights violations?

I never allow this particular bit of dishonesty to go unanswered. The murders and declarations of genocidal intent started on the Palestinian side, and were completely one-sided for decades before Israel even became a state.

[Costa Fiero]

It's really hard to take you seriously when you make racist blanket statements about Muslims and Arabs in almost every post.

Take a look at the human rights records of countries such as Syria and Egypt. Take a look at the human rights records of places like Saudi Arabia. Take a look at the neo-colonialism of the Turks in Northern Cyrpus. All Arab/Muslim countries which have had an abismal human rights records, with numerous massacres and violations. Syria for example is estimated to have massacred around 40,000 people in one go during the 1980's. Have you even watched the news recently? All the killing that has occured in Syria?

I created a thread about Qatar asking for a military intervention in Syria because I was appreciative of the fact that at least one Arab state in the Middle East actually gives a shit about human rights. And playing the racist card isn't going to make you're argument any better. Honestly, take a look at the numerous human rights abuses perpetrated by Arab or Muslim nations.

I'm an American. I must be an obese creationist with a superiority complex and an insatiable appetite for apple pie and football, because that's how all Americans are. Even worse, I'm a Christian. I must think homosexuals are evil sinners who deserve a good stoning, that every penny I make belongs to me and me alone, and that Ronald Reagan was a saint. Barack Obama is my president. I must love taking it up the ass from people like Goldman Sachs, Koch Industries, and Lockheed Martin. I must think all those corporations have human rights and that their money is the same as speech. I must think that imperialism in the guise of defense or freedom or God or whatever reason we come up with is a good thing. I must be thrilled that my government would grant itself the right to arrest, detain, and torture its own citizens indefinitely without trial, or forgo the red tape of citizenship by simply revoking it, or control the freedom of information on the internet.

Yup. All Americans are the same and they all agree with the things their government does. Just like Syrians and Iranians.

Irrelevant dribble is irrelevant dribble.

[Zaras]

Ever stop to think that maybe their neighbors have such a problem with their existence and kill Israeli citizens because of Israel's aggressive posturing and human rights violations?

I never allow this particular bit of dishonesty to go unanswered. The murders and declarations of genocidal intent started on the Palestinian side, and were completely one-sided for decades before Israel even became a state.

And Irgun and the Stern Gang, for fuck's sake? When Jewish terrorists can murder 91 people in one bombing, you really need to stop pretending that Palestinians are bloodthirsty murderers and Jews are pure as the driven snow and never did anything wrong, ever. There is no way in hell this was ever one-sided "for decades before Israel even became a state".

[Zaras]

And playing the racist card isn't going to make you're argument any better. Honestly, take a look at the numerous human rights abuses perpetrated by Arab or Muslim nations.

And, by the same logic, do the human rights abuses of various African countries mean black people don't give a shit about human rights? Or Asians?

[Evraim]

And Irgun and the Stern Gang, for fuck's sake? When Jewish terrorists can murder 91 people in one bombing, you really need to stop pretending that Palestinians are bloodthirsty murderers and Jews are pure as the driven snow and never did anything wrong, ever. There is no way in hell this was ever one-sided "for decades before Israel even became a state".

You are correct. The Irgun and Lehi were both terrorist organization by any definition. Furthermore, you are correct in asserting that Zionists (I use this term to refer to those Jews who participated in the Aliyahs or otherwise managed to migrate to Israel) are not entirely blameless. However, you are incorrect in saying that the Arabs did not persecute the Jews prior to the foundation of Israel. One example of the violence executed against Jews residing in the regioin of Palestine: http://www.fighthatred.com/historical-events/pogroms-razzias/658-safed-1834-the-forgotten-pogrom It is relatively unbiased in the first paragraphs, but becomes slightly less believeable as it reaches its conclusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_Plunder Another source. Certainly, I will not argue that all Arabs conducted themselves in such a barbaric manner, but the fact of the matter is that Jews usually did not have the power or influence to react. I do not need to go into the Holy Wars of the Middle Ages, do I?

Well Israelis aren't a particular ethnicity, most of them are Europeans. Though there are many Mizrahi Jews who are native to the Middle East/North Africa.

False. http://viewjew.wordpress.com/2010/12/24/ashkenazi-sefardi-jews-are-all-of-the-same-one-semitic-nation-dna-vs-khazar-myth/ Of course, I had to actually sort through a grotesque multitude of anti-Semitic websites in order to find the actual genome study (and even this isn't what I was looking for). The Jews (Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and Mizrahim) are all descended from the same Semitic ancestors. These ancestors according to the opinions of numerous historians emerged from the polytheistic Ca'anite culture (as opposed to the claims of Judaism and Christianity). Also, more neutral source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Genetic_studies_on_Ashkenazi_Jewry

[Zaras]

And Irgun and the Stern Gang, for fuck's sake? When Jewish terrorists can murder 91 people in one bombing, you really need to stop pretending that Palestinians are bloodthirsty murderers and Jews are pure as the driven snow and never did anything wrong, ever. There is no way in hell this was ever one-sided "for decades before Israel even became a state".

You are correct. The Irgun and Lehi were both terrorist organization by any definition. Furthermore, you are correct in asserting that Zionists (I use this term to refer to those Jews who participated in the Aliyahs or otherwise managed to migrate to Israel) are not entirely blameless. However, you are incorrect in saying that the Arabs did not persecute the Jews prior to the foundation of Israel. One example of the violence executed against Jews residing in the regioin of Palestine: http://www.fighthatred.com/historical-events/pogroms-razzias/658-safed-1834-the-forgotten-pogrom It is relatively unbiased in the first paragraphs, but becomes slightly less believeable as it reaches its conclusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_Plunder Another source. Certainly, I will not argue that all Arabs conducted themselves in such a barbaric manner, but the fact of the matter is that Jews usually did not have the power or influence to react. I do not need to go into the Holy Wars of the Middle Ages, do I?

You're right, I should've said "Zionist" terrorists instead of "Jewish". And yeah, the fact that Arabs forced the British to clamp down on Jewish migration to Palestine proves that no side has clean hands in the whole thing, except that nowadays the Jewish population actually has the capacity to react.

[Fanaglia]

It's really hard to take you seriously when you make racist blanket statements about Muslims and Arabs in almost every post.

Take a look at the human rights records of countries such as Syria and Egypt. Take a look at the human rights records of places like Saudi Arabia. Take a look at the neo-colonialism of the Turks in Northern Cyrpus. All Arab/Muslim countries which have had an abismal human rights records, with numerous massacres and violations. Syria for example is estimated to have massacred around 40,000 people in one go during the 1980's. Have you even watched the news recently? All the killing that has occured in Syria?

I created a thread about Qatar asking for a military intervention in Syria because I was appreciative of the fact that at least one Arab state in the Middle East actually gives a shit about human rights. And playing the racist card isn't going to make you're argument any better. Honestly, take a look at the numerous human rights abuses perpetrated by Arab or Muslim nations.

I'm an American. I must be an obese creationist with a superiority complex and an insatiable appetite for apple pie and football, because that's how all Americans are. Even worse, I'm a Christian. I must think homosexuals are evil sinners who deserve a good stoning, that every penny I make belongs to me and me alone, and that Ronald Reagan was a saint. Barack Obama is my president. I must love taking it up the ass from people like Goldman Sachs, Koch Industries, and Lockheed Martin. I must think all those corporations have human rights and that their money is the same as speech. I must think that imperialism in the guise of defense or freedom or God or whatever reason we come up with is a good thing. I must be thrilled that my government would grant itself the right to arrest, detain, and torture its own citizens indefinitely without trial, or forgo the red tape of citizenship by simply revoking it, or control the freedom of information on the internet.

Yup. All Americans are the same and they all agree with the things their government does. Just like Syrians and Iranians.

Irrelevant dribble is irrelevant dribble.

My point in the paragraph you so flippantly dismissed was that not all Muslims or Arabs are "out to get" the Jews or Israel, just because their corrupt governments and a few extremist terrorists do. Had you actually clicked any of my links, you'd see that one of them is a link TO A NEWS ARTICLE ABOUT THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED BY THE SYRIAN REGIME. Oh yeah, I forgot, "my type" only pays attention to human rights violations by Israel.

I'm not trying to "make my argument any better" by "playing the racist card." The basis for every single one of your defenses of Israel are based on racism. When racism becomes the basis for policy decisions (or your opinion of them), your argument becomes invalid. You know who else based policy decisions on racism? The Nazis.*



*By saying that you are like a Nazi, I am not implying that you argue as you do because of the Nazis, but rather that your allowing of racism to dictate your opinions on political policy makes you like a Nazi. And before you say "Oh, but Iran makes racist policy decisions all the time," I have two things to say. Firstly, you would be right in saying that, and thus Ahmadinejad and the Iranian government are also like Nazis. Secondly, as several of us have said before, just because country A does something bad doesn't mean it's OK for country B to do the same.

[Gauthier]

You are correct. The Irgun and Lehi were both terrorist organization by any definition. Furthermore, you are correct in asserting that Zionists (I use this term to refer to those Jews who participated in the Aliyahs or otherwise managed to migrate to Israel) are not entirely blameless. However, you are incorrect in saying that the Arabs did not persecute the Jews prior to the foundation of Israel. One example of the violence executed against Jews residing in the regioin of Palestine: http://www.fighthatred.com/historical-events/pogroms-razzias/658-safed-1834-the-forgotten-pogrom It is relatively unbiased in the first paragraphs, but becomes slightly less believeable as it reaches its conclusion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safed_Plunder Another source. Certainly, I will not argue that all Arabs conducted themselves in such a barbaric manner, but the fact of the matter is that Jews usually did not have the power or influence to react. I do not need to go into the Holy Wars of the Middle Ages, do I?

You're right, I should've said "Zionist" terrorists instead of "Jewish". And yeah, the fact that Arabs forced the British to clamp down on Jewish migration to Palestine proves that no side has clean hands in the whole thing, except that nowadays the Jewish population actually has the capacity to react.

Both sides are dirty as hell. But only Israel so far is claiming to be a sparkling bastion of democracy and human rights in the Middle East and the United States for the most part is giving head and money to that bullshit.

[Costa Fiero]

My point in the paragraph you so flippantly dismissed was that not all Muslims or Arabs are "out to get" the Jews or Israel, just because their corrupt governments and a few extremist terrorists do. Had you actually clicked any of my links, you'd see that one of them is a link TO A NEWS ARTICLE ABOUT THE ATROCITIES COMMITTED BY THE SYRIAN REGIME.

Oh really?

Oh yeah, I forgot, "my type" only pays attention to human rights violations by Israel.

Sure do. Hence why this thread gets 17 or 18 pages full of nothing but vitriol directed at Israel and said supporters of Israel and my thread gets two pages of intelligent discussion.

I'm not trying to "make my argument any better" by "playing the racist card." The basis for every single one of your defenses of Israel are based on racism. When racism becomes the basis for policy decisions (or your opinion of them), your argument becomes invalid. You know who else based policy decisions on racism? The Nazis.*

If the Arab governments and people were so concerned about the treatment about human rights, why are Palestinian refugees mistreated in Lebanon and Syria? This is a question that you failed to answer.

*By saying that you are like a Nazi, I am not implying that you argue as you do because of the Nazis, but rather that your allowing of racism to dictate your opinions on political policy makes you like a Nazi. And before you say "Oh, but Iran makes racist policy decisions all the time," I have two things to say. Firstly, you would be right in saying that, and thus Ahmadinejad and the Iranian government are also like Nazis. Secondly, as several of us have said before, just because country A does something bad doesn't mean it's OK for country B to do the same.

So, because I point out something which you didn't see = racism. It's the only card you play when your hand is redundant.

And, by the same logic, do the human rights abuses of various African countries mean black people don't give a shit about human rights? Or Asians?

You want to argue the contrary?

[Al-Harakut al-Islami]

This doesn't surprise me. I was never under and illusions that Israel is somehow more moral then other middle-eastern countries.

Well it might very well be. Then again, I find Iran a hell of a lot less repulsive than Saudi Arabia but that's because the kingdom has continued to push far beyond any prior bound of normally repugnant theo-fascist insanity, not by dint of Irans own merits, which are themselves quite dismal. So it is with Israel.

How about Turkey?

[Costa Fiero]

How about Turkey?

I think he'd find it to be just fine. Certainly better than other places in the Middle East.

[Gravlen]

Oh yeah, I forgot, "my type" only pays attention to human rights violations by Israel.

Sure do. Hence why this thread gets 17 or 18 pages full of nothing but vitriol directed at Israel and said supporters of Israel and my thread gets two pages of intelligent discussion.

Of course, it's got nothing to do with the fact that the role of Qatar on the international stage is largely negligible... Which is pretty much what the "intelligent discussion" was about.

Also, well done ignoring the people and arguments targeting the law in question in this thread. I guess you see only what you want to see.

And, by the same logic, do the human rights abuses of various African countries mean black people don't give a shit about human rights? Or Asians?

You want to argue the contrary?

[Costa Fiero]

Of course, it's got nothing to do with the fact that the role of Qatar on the international stage is largely negligible... Which is pretty much what the "intelligent discussion" was about.

Also, well done ignoring the people and arguments targeting the law in question in this thread. I guess you see only what you want to see.

I've only ignored it because everyone just used it as an excuse to label Israel and everyone who supports it Nazis.

[Gauthier]

Well it might very well be. Then again, I find Iran a hell of a lot less repulsive than Saudi Arabia but that's because the kingdom has continued to push far beyond any prior bound of normally repugnant theo-fascist insanity, not by dint of Irans own merits, which are themselves quite dismal. So it is with Israel.

How about Turkey?

Didn't you hear Rick Perry? He says it's run by Islamic terrorists.

[Evraim]

How about Turkey?

I think he'd find it to be just fine. Certainly better than other places in the Middle East.

Tell it to the Kurds. I'm sorry "Mountain Turks". The Turkish government is certain more democratic than Syria, Saudi Arabia, and several other countries in the region, but it isn't too pretty either. Of course, the Kurds aren't exactly cooperative, but that's what happens when European countries promise you a national identity and don't deliver.

Didn't you hear Rick Perry? He says it's run by Islamic terrorists.

He's from my state. Please, do not imagine we're all so imbecilic. Although Perry is incorrect about Turkey being an Islamist state, the AKP can be considered "mildly Islamist", though they reject that label. I would say they're probably slightly more or about as religiously rooted as our GOP.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Well it might very well be. Then again, I find Iran a hell of a lot less repulsive than Saudi Arabia but that's because the kingdom has continued to push far beyond any prior bound of normally repugnant theo-fascist insanity, not by dint of Irans own merits, which are themselves quite dismal. So it is with Israel.

How about Turkey?

If wer're including it as part of the Middle East, sure. I'd even like my own country to emulate Turkey in a lot of ways (not all).

[Gauthier]

I think he'd find it to be just fine. Certainly better than other places in the Middle East.

Tell it to the Kurds. I'm sorry "Mountain Turks". The Turkish government is certain more democratic than Syria, Saudi Arabia, and several other countries in the region, but it isn't too pretty either. Of course, the Kurds aren't exactly cooperative, but that's what happens when European countries promise you a national identity and don't deliver.

Didn't you hear Rick Perry? He says it's run by Islamic terrorists.

He's from my state. Please, do not imagine we're all so imbecilic. Although Perry is incorrect about Turkey being an Islamist state, the AKP can be considered "mildly Islamist", though they reject that label. I would say they're probably slightly more or about as religiously rooted as our GOP.

If anything, Prick Erry's burnout on the national scene just shows how clueless he is when faced with real competetion and the Texas Democrats build up a real challenge.

[EnragedMaldivians]

How about Turkey?

Didn't you hear Rick Perry? He says it's run by Islamic terrorists.

Oh yeah. I fucking lol'd.

I heard he dropped out in favout of Gingrich; wasn't following the news much during exam week, but if it's true, good riddance to the lunatic.

[Costa Fiero]

If anything, Prick Erry's burnout on the national scene just shows how clueless he is when faced with real competetion and the Texas Democrats build up a real challenge.

And we all know what happened the last time a Governor of Texas became President.

[Gauthier]

If anything, Prick Erry's burnout on the national scene just shows how clueless he is when faced with real competetion and the Texas Democrats build up a real challenge.

And we all know what happened the last time a Governor of Texas became President.

The One Percent called it "The Golden Years".

[Costa Fiero]

The One Percent called it "The Golden Years".

I call it "Follow the Dart, Boys!".

[Evraim]

The One Percent called it "The Golden Years".

I call it "Follow the Dart, Boys!".

I call it the "Bush Presidency". If you're going to give it a name, it might as well be the on that requires the least amount of evidence to validate.

Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. Yep, not a racist/theocratic state at all.

Also, I wanted to address this. Everybody assumes that Israel is theocratic and/or racist. However, I very rarely see much evidence offered or discussion on the claims themselves. In fact, I wouldn't consider Israel a theocracy- at least not in the traditional sense of the word. A theocracy is:

"a form of organization in which the official policy is to be governed by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided, or simply pursuant to the doctrine of a particular religious sect or religion."

This is not the case in Israel. Neither G-d nor rabbis govern the state. Furthermore, althought the majority of the population is Jewish, I do not believe that the Tanakh determines the laws of Israel. Of course, the Orthodox Israelis might want that to be the case, but it isn't at present.

I could also craft an argument against the idea that Israel is a racist state, although this is admittedly more difficult. Racism is defined as:

the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination.

The law we are debating specifically mentions Palestinians, not Arabs. As most people should acknowledge, the Israelis do tend to be quite careful with these terms and assigning them meaning. To Israel, a Palestinian is a nationality (as soon as they recognize that they aren't going to being live in a Middle East free of Jews), and Arab is a racial/ethnic classifiction. This, in and of itself, is an important distinction to make. There are Arab Israelis entitled to the same rights as Jewish Israelis. However, Palestinians are a different nationality, and one which has historically been hostile to Israel. This gives the law some legitimacy, I think. If France and Germany were engaged in a sixty year war, do you think that they might alter their laws to ensure that their country could not be infiltrated? Of course, it's somewhat silly, but it is intended as a preventative measure.

[Gravlen]

Of course, it's got nothing to do with the fact that the role of Qatar on the international stage is largely negligible... Which is pretty much what the "intelligent discussion" was about.

Also, well done ignoring the people and arguments targeting the law in question in this thread. I guess you see only what you want to see.

I've only ignored it because everyone just used it as an excuse to label Israel and everyone who supports it Nazis.

Everyone? Oh good.

Then you should have no problem finding the post where I did so in this thread. I mean, it's not like you're offering up pure bullshit, are you?

[Zaras]

This is not the case in Israel. Neither G-d nor rabbis govern the state. Furthermore, althought the majority of the population is Jewish, I do not believe that the Tanakh determines the laws of Israel. Of course, the Orthodox Israelis might want that to be the case, but it isn't at present.

Oh nononononnoooooooo, Israel is far from being 100% secular. It failed to adopt a Constitution in 1948 because those crazy fundies freaked at the idea of having a state not governed by the Tanakh/Talmud/etc., so it settled for basic laws adopted at the slowest pace possible instead.