Israel upholds citizenship bar for Palestinian spouses

[Gravlen]

If Palestinians execute Israelis then id say that would be fine for them to do the same. Now if Israelis were executing Palestinians and the Palestinians were doing nothing then I would be up in arms against Israel.

Oh look. There's you, being part of the problem.

I wouldn't be OK with Palestinians violating the human rights of Israelis, no matter what Israel does. I will not be OK with Palestinians using human shields just because Israel did. I will not be OK with Palestinians torturing Israelis just because Israel did. etc.

[Saint Jade IV]

If Palestinians execute Israelis then id say that would be fine for them to do the same. Now if Israelis were executing Palestinians and the Palestinians were doing nothing then I would be up in arms against Israel.

Oh look. There's you, being part of the problem.

I wouldn't be OK with Palestinians violating the human rights of Israelis, no matter what Israel does. I will not be OK with Palestinians using human shields just because Israel did. I will not be OK with Palestinians torturing Israelis just because Israel did. etc.

Yeah, but we graduated kindergarten.

[Risottia]

Also, damn the majority of Israeli voters, will they ever learn?

Current government's been around since the Second Intifada. Why wouldn't they vote for a party that gives them security?

Considering the records, this government isn't giving them security.

[Risottia]

Looking at countries in the middle east, Israel is by far the most democratic, religously diverse and culturally diverse.

Actually that used to be Lebanon. Until the day Israel decided to back the Lebanese Christian militias, and then invaded.
Hmm...

[Risottia]

fascism in itself isn't genocidal

Yeah, tell that to Lybians and Ethiopians.

[Costa Fiero]

Considering the records, this government isn't giving them security.

The records don't lie:

Supporters argue that the barrier is necessary to protect Israeli civilians from Palestinian terrorism, including the suicide bombing attacks that increased significantly during the Second Intifada. There has been a reduced number of incidents of suicide bombings since the construction of the barrier. According to statistics published by the Israeli government, between 2000 and July 2003, when the "first continuous segment" of the barrier was built, 73 Palestinian suicide bombings were carried out from the West Bank, killing 293 Israelis and injuring over 1,900. However, from August 2003 and the end of 2006, only 12 attacks were carried out, killing 64 Israelis and wounding 445. Supporters argue that this is indicative of the barrier being effective in preventing such attacks.

You also only have to look at the number of bombings to know that some improvements in security have been made. Even operation Cast Lead drastically reduced the ammount of rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip.

[Costa Fiero]

Actually that used to be Lebanon. Until the day Israel decided to back the Lebanese Christian militias, and then invaded.
Hmm...

*cough* Syria *cough*.

[Fanaglia]

So Human Rights Groups are assholes for finding out that Israel oppresses Palestinians and other Arabs?

What I am saying is Masturbation is not an evil thing.

Maybe not an evil thing, but masturbation while you're supposed to be in class is definitely a bad thing.

[North Calaveras]

What I am saying is Masturbation is not an evil thing.

Maybe not an evil thing, but masturbation while you're supposed to be in class is definitely a bad thing.

It's not bad, just frowned up, like masturbating in a airplane bathroom.

[Araucania and Patagonia]

I never knew a law could be such a dick, yet I am not that surprised

[Zaras]

Actually that used to be Lebanon. Until the day Israel decided to back the Lebanese Christian militias, and then invaded.
Hmm...

*cough* Syria *cough*.

*cough* Israel's own Vietnam *cough*

[North Suran]

You also only have to look at the number of bombings to know that some improvements in security have been made. Even operation Cast Lead drastically reduced the ammount of rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip.

Except the Israeli government has continuously failed to promote regional stability, which is the only thing that will give Israel real, permanent peace. Benjamin Netanyahu has actually managed to outdo his predecessors by not simply dragging out the peace process, but bringing it to a complete halt. He has brought about only superficial security in Israel proper while endangering Israel in the regional sphere. Following the revolutions in the Arab world, I fear that the Israeli government will become even more reactionary. And the more reactionary and authoritarian Israel becomes, the more it undermines its own existence.

This is what bugs me. Israeli apologists always use the wellbeing of the Israeli people as a justification for the policy of the Israeli government. But it is the Israeli people who are suffering for that policy. It is the Israeli people who are being bombed for the sake of official obstinacy. The greatest threat to the existence of the State of Israel and the security of its people is their own government. Until they can get a Prime Minister who does not pander to the ultra-orthodox vote and instead makes genuine moves towards stability and reconciliation, then the Israeli people will continue to be blown up, bombed and shot for the sake of their political masters refusal to reconcile.

There is no 'good' or 'bad' side in the Arab-Israeli dispute. But there is certainly 'good' and 'bad' factions, and the latter are currently side-lining the former in both Israel and the Palestinian states.

[Zaras]

You also only have to look at the number of bombings to know that some improvements in security have been made. Even operation Cast Lead drastically reduced the ammount of rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip.

Except the Israeli government has continuously failed to promote regional stability, which is the only thing that will give Israel real, permanent peace. Benjamin Netanyahu has actually managed to outdo his predecessors by not simply dragging out the peace process, but bringing it to a complete halt. He has brought about only superficial security in Israel proper while endangering Israel in the regional sphere. Following the revolutions in the Arab world, I fear that the Israeli government will become even more reactionary. And the more reactionary and authoritarian Israel becomes, the more it undermines its own existence.

This is what bugs me. Israeli apologists always use the wellbeing of the Israeli people as a justification for the policy of the Israeli government. But it is the Israeli people who are suffering for that policy. It is the Israeli people who are being bombed for the sake of official obstinacy. The greatest threat to the existence of the State of Israel and the security of its people is their own government. Until they can get a Prime Minister who does not pander to the ultra-orthodox vote and instead makes genuine moves towards stability and reconciliation, then the Israeli people will continue to be blown up, bombed and shot for the sake of their political masters refusal to reconcile.

There is no 'good' or 'bad' side in the Arab-Israeli dispute. But there is certainly 'good' and 'bad' factions, and the latter are currently side-lining the former in both Israel and the Palestinian states.

I agree. Certain folks in the Israeli government seem to have a WW1 mentality of holding on to parcels of land is more important than peoples' lives.

[Costa Fiero]

*cough* Israel's own Vietnam *cough*

Point? Oh, that's right. There is none.

[Costa Fiero]

Except the Israeli government has continuously failed to promote regional stability, which is the only thing that will give Israel real, permanent peace. Benjamin Netanyahu has actually managed to outdo his predecessors by not simply dragging out the peace process, but bringing it to a complete halt. He has brought about only superficial security in Israel proper while endangering Israel in the regional sphere. Following the revolutions in the Arab world, I fear that the Israeli government will become even more reactionary. And the more reactionary and authoritarian Israel becomes, the more it undermines its own existence.

How can it promote peace within the Middle East if its neighbours refuse to even recongnise its existence and support groups that routinely try to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible.

You can sit there and say that Israel must do more towards peace, but how can they when their neighbours don't even want them there in the first place? Sure, Egypt and Jordan signed peace treaties, but how many people in those countries actually support it? There was a reason why many of the defaced pictures of Hosni Mubarak had the Star of David on them.

[BlackMetal]

The Middle East loves instability and war. As a result, it's tough for any rational person to ardently support Israel or denounce it. In my opinion, Jews deserve a home (I have no problem with a state promoting its ethnic group, so long as they do so on THEIR land.). However, Israel can be argued to be illegitimate. I don't think there are any "good guys" in the Middle East.

[Fanaglia]

Except the Israeli government has continuously failed to promote regional stability, which is the only thing that will give Israel real, permanent peace. Benjamin Netanyahu has actually managed to outdo his predecessors by not simply dragging out the peace process, but bringing it to a complete halt. He has brought about only superficial security in Israel proper while endangering Israel in the regional sphere. Following the revolutions in the Arab world, I fear that the Israeli government will become even more reactionary. And the more reactionary and authoritarian Israel becomes, the more it undermines its own existence.

How can it promote peace within the Middle East if its neighbours refuse to even recongnise its existence and support groups that routinely try to kill as many Israeli civilians as possible.

You can sit there and say that Israel must do more towards peace, but how can they when their neighbours don't even want them there in the first place? Sure, Egypt and Jordan signed peace treaties, but how many people in those countries actually support it? There was a reason why many of the defaced pictures of Hosni Mubarak had the Star of David on them.

Ever stop to think that maybe their neighbors have such a problem with their existence and kill Israeli citizens because of Israel's aggressive posturing and human rights violations? If I started walking around the Bronx, smashing car windows and kicking people in the shins while flashing a gun everywhere I went and bragging about how awesome and in-the-right I was because I was better and could do whatever I wanted, how long do you think it would be before someone tried to kick my ass or kill me?

[BlackMetal]

fascism in itself isn't genocidal

Yeah, tell that to Lybians and Ethiopians.

That doesn't change the fact that fascism doesn't have to be genocidal.

[Costa Fiero]

Ever stop to think that maybe their neighbors have such a problem with their existence and kill Israeli citizens because of Israel's aggressive posturing and human rights violations?

If the Arabs were concerned about human rights, the Middle East would be a vastly different place than it is today. The only concerted effort I have seen of Arab nations actually caring about human rights is Qatar asking for a military intervention in Syria to end the violence. Not only that, but Palestinians have been mistreated outside of the Occupied Territories, particularly in Lebanon and Syria.

So, clearly human rights violations are not the main cause.

[Zaras]

Not only that, but Palestinians have been mistreated outside of the Occupied Territories, particularly in Lebanon and Syria.

Lemme guess, is it because Lebanon and Syria care more about pursuing their vendetta with Israel than trying to look after Palestinians? Same way the Azeri refugees from the Nagorno-Karabakh War are treated like absolute shit by Azerbaijan and still live in crushing poverty because trying to improve their lives would somehow be a sign that they've given up on their irredentism?

[Risottia]

Actually that used to be Lebanon. Until the day Israel decided to back the Lebanese Christian militias, and then invaded.
Hmm...

*cough* Syria *cough*.

Just to be clear, I'll never say that Syria is anything near a good neighbour. Just that I ALSO blame Israel on that issue.

[Risottia]

...
The records don't lie: ...
You also only have to look at the number of bombings to know that some improvements in security have been made.

Nice point, rocket attacks though. Although, about suicide bombers, I'd also consider some non-local factors, like the war in Afghanistan, which might have called the attention of extremists to other areas.

A purely military approach to the security issue is always going to fail, short of genocide.

Even operation Cast Lead drastically reduced the ammount of rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip.

And exacerbated the Palestinians even more. As a matter of fact, rocket attacks continue, and Hamas gathers the support of the majority of Palestinians. This isn't going to generate more security for Israel.

[Xeng He]

Gee, I wonder if that law may not have had a little something to do with the waves of fucking suicide bombers using every expedient available to cosy up to large groups of Israeli civilians at the time?

Face the facts: if a nation is forced to live under siege by 60 years of "neighbours" wanting to kill it, then it will develop a siege mentality. Can't say I especially blame them, either. Is it hard on the Palestinians who do fall in love with Jewish men/women? Sure it is, and probably unfair too, but their own neighbours and coreligionists - on both sides of the relationship - will be even harder on them, given the state of Islamic-Jewish relations generally, and especially in the Holy Land.

So people who are trying to become Israeli citizens are completely and utterly indistinguishable from any other Palestinian?

Finally, any nation - any nation! - has the right to determine who is, and is not, a citizen, and on what terms - if any - it grants citizenship to people not of its nation. Every nation imposes, or has imposed in the past, at least one requirement which seems at least a bit odd (in quite a few cases, outright-offensive) to other nations.

You wouldn't happen to be completely okay with companies denying minorities jobs, would you?

[Xeng He]

The Middle East loves instability and war. As a result, it's tough for any rational person to ardently support Israel or denounce it.. However, Israel can be argued to be illegitimate. I don't think there are any "good guys" in the Middle East.

This, minus the whole ethnic-nationalist bit, sums up my opinion.

[Costa Fiero]

Lemme guess, is it because Lebanon and Syria care more about pursuing their vendetta with Israel than trying to look after Palestinians? Same way the Azeri refugees from the Nagorno-Karabakh War are treated like absolute shit by Azerbaijan and still live in crushing poverty because trying to improve their lives would somehow be a sign that they've given up on their irredentism?

I wouldn't be surprised. As I said, Arabs don't really give a shit about human rights. Lebanon has more internal problems and can't necessarily (or want to for that matter) look after refugees. Lebanon's government also supports Hezbollah, as does Syria's government and spends more time trying to keep the Christians, Druzes and various Islamic sects from tearing one another to peices.

Syria is more hellbent on getting the Golan Heights back rather than settling the Palestinian issue; it's more convenient for them that way. The relationship between Hafez al-Assad and Yasser Arafat wasn't exactly genial to say the least, with it being said that Hafez wanted to take over and occupy the West Bank itself so that it could be a better bargaining chip with talks to Israel.

Nice point, rocket attacks though. Although, about suicide bombers, I'd also consider some non-local factors, like the war in Afghanistan, which might have called the attention of extremists to other areas.

A purely military approach to the security issue is always going to fail, short of genocide.

Which is why Israel needs more of a gendarmerie type force to deal with these people. But you can't deny the rate of bombings has dropped massively.

And exacerbated the Palestinians even more. As a matter of fact, rocket attacks continue, and Hamas gathers the support of the majority of Palestinians. This isn't going to generate more security for Israel.

Whilst rocket attacks still continue, the rate of such attacks is such that there are fewer attacks now than before the operation began. That and with the new Iron Dome anti-missile/rocket system in place, I'm not so sure that rocket attacks would be as damage causing as they used to be.

Now, I don't necessarily trust them, but Hamas have said they wanted peace. So far, they haven't committed any attacks but rather let other more extremist groups commit them for them.