Israel upholds citizenship bar for Palestinian spouses

[Costa Fiero]

I don't think you can really make the case that wanting a "religiously pure" and an "ethnically pure" state are really all that different. Especially when that religion is Judaism, an exception among most religions in that it also constitutes an ethnicity.

No religion is ethno-centric. Judaism is not an exception. Yes, the majority are European in origin but there are many other ethnicities who practice Judaism. There is a sizable population of Arab Jews inhabiting the city of Fes in Morocco for instance, and they get on perfectly well with the surrounding Muslims. Judaism is like any other religion in not being ethno-centric.

Further, I'm not necessarily talking about the Nazis, Germany was shooting for Greater Germany before Hitler came to power.

Most comparisons are against Nazi racial and ethnic policies and I have little doubt that you weren't making a similar comparison.

[Maurepas]

I don't think you can really make the case that wanting a "religiously pure" and an "ethnically pure" state are really all that different. Especially when that religion is Judaism, an exception among most religions in that it also constitutes an ethnicity.

No religion is ethno-centric. Judaism is not an exception. Yes, the majority are European in origin but there are many other ethnicities who practice Judaism. There is a sizable population of Arab Jews inhabiting the city of Fes in Morocco for instance, and they get on perfectly well with the surrounding Muslims. Judaism is like any other religion in not being ethno-centric.

Further, I'm not necessarily talking about the Nazis, Germany was shooting for Greater Germany before Hitler came to power.

Most comparisons are against Nazi racial and ethnic policies and I have little doubt that you weren't making a similar comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים‎‎ ISO 259-3 Yhudim Israeli pronunciation [jehu'dim]), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation

If they weren't afraid of diluting that fact they wouldn't be upholding this ban. Fear of other ethnicities entering their voting populace is the driving force behind this sort of thing. Hell, they aren't alone, in the US there are multitudes of people who'd like to have a similar ban for Hispanics in the US for fear of the Mexican population entering the voting populace and upsetting the current white majority.

[Costa Fiero]

Most comparisons are against Nazi racial and ethnic policies and I have little doubt that you weren't making a similar comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

The Jews (Hebrew: יְהוּדִים‎‎ ISO 259-3 Yhudim Israeli pronunciation [jehu'dim]), also known as the Jewish people, are a nation and ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish ethnicity, nationality, and religion are strongly interrelated, as Judaism is the traditional faith of the Jewish nation

If they weren't afraid of diluting that fact they wouldn't be upholding this ban. Fear of other ethnicities entering their voting populace is the driving force behind this sort of thing. Hell, they aren't alone, in the US there are multitudes of people who'd like to have a similar ban for Hispanics in the US for fear of the Mexican population entering the voting populace and upsetting the current white majority.[/quote]

But there aren't any "true" Jews left. Most are now Caucasian in nature (some who are born in Israel have darker pigmentation and eyes due to the climate). As I said, define a "pure Israeli". Which you can't. Because there are none.

As is, there is already a sizeable minority of Arabs in Israel. But I can understand how they would be a little concerned with people like that. I can only imagine what those in Europe think with a potential breeding ground for extremism thanks to the waves of Muslim migrants.

[Maurepas]

But there aren't any "true" Jews left. Most are now Caucasian in nature (some who are born in Israel have darker pigmentation and eyes due to the climate). As I said, define a "pure Israeli". Which you can't. Because there are none.

As is, there is already a sizeable minority of Arabs in Israel. But I can understand how they would be a little concerned with people like that. I can only imagine what those in Europe think with a potential breeding ground for extremism thanks to the waves of Muslim migrants.

...You're just deliberately not getting the point now. The State of Israel doesn't want Non-Jews in their midst, it's a clear goal of theirs is a State dedicated to Judaism.

And that's a terribly hypocritical goal on their part. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about that.

And I'm not even going to merit the "extremists muslims!" part of your post with a response.

[Costa Fiero]

...You're just deliberately not getting the point now. The State of Israel doesn't want Non-Jews in their midst, it's a clear goal of theirs is a State dedicated to Judaism.

And that's a terribly hypocritical goal on their part. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about that.

And I'm not even going to merit the "extremists muslims!" part of your post with a response.

What's so hypocritical? How many states around Israel openly discriminate against non-Muslims? How many states around Israel forbid people to convert to another religion?

Also, less of the self-righteousness please.

[Maurepas]

...You're just deliberately not getting the point now. The State of Israel doesn't want Non-Jews in their midst, it's a clear goal of theirs is a State dedicated to Judaism.

And that's a terribly hypocritical goal on their part. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about that.

And I'm not even going to merit the "extremists muslims!" part of your post with a response.

What's so hypocritical? How many states around Israel openly discriminate against non-Muslims? How many states around Israel forbid people to convert to another religion?

Also, less of the self-righteousness please.

It's hypocritical because one of their supposed justifications for wanting to get that land is that they were fleeing a State dedicated to to not wanting any Non-Germans in their midst. To turn around and explicitly state that they want the same thing is the height of hypocrisy.

Now I'm not saying their neighbors are great, but they don't attempt to claim justification for their actions based upon past persecution, and then turn around and persecute people.

And I don't think it's self righteous to disregard a racist statement when I see one. There's nothing inherently extremist about the Muslim immigrations into Europe.

[Gauthier]

What's so hypocritical? How many states around Israel openly discriminate against non-Muslims? How many states around Israel forbid people to convert to another religion?

Also, less of the self-righteousness please.

It's hypocritical because one of their supposed justifications for wanting to get that land is that they were fleeing a State dedicated to to not wanting any Non-Germans in their midst. To turn around and explicitly state that they want the same thing is the height of hypocrisy.

Now I'm not saying their neighbors are great, but they don't attempt to claim justification for their actions based upon past persecution, and then turn around and persecute people.

And I don't think it's self righteous to disregard a racist statement when I see one. There's nothing inherently extremist about the Muslim immigrations into Europe.

Plus that thing about the other countries not bragging about being the sole democracy in the Middle East.

[Costa Fiero]

It's hypocritical because one of their supposed justifications for wanting to get that land is that they were fleeing a State dedicated to to not wanting any Non-Germans in their midst. To turn around and explicitly state that they want the same thing is the height of hypocrisy.

No. The idea for a state specifically for the Jews predates Nazi persecution by decades. There was a Zionist fund dedicated to purchasing land in Palestine for Jews to settle on, away from persecution in eastern Europe. The idea for a pure Jewish state is as almost as old as the idea for a pure German state itself.

Now I'm not saying their neighbors are great, but they don't attempt to claim justification for their actions based upon past persecution, and then turn around and persecute people.

I know. Many Muslim states have persecuted what they considered undesireables over the centuries anyway.

And I don't think it's self righteous to disregard a racist statement when I see one. There's nothing inherently extremist about the Muslim immigrations into Europe.

It's only racist if you disagree with it.

[Maurepas]

It's hypocritical because one of their supposed justifications for wanting to get that land is that they were fleeing a State dedicated to to not wanting any Non-Germans in their midst. To turn around and explicitly state that they want the same thing is the height of hypocrisy.

No. The idea for a state specifically for the Jews predates Nazi persecution by decades. There was a Zionist fund dedicated to purchasing land in Palestine for Jews to settle on, away from persecution in eastern Europe. The idea for a pure Jewish state is as almost as old as the idea for a pure German state itself.

Now I'm not saying their neighbors are great, but they don't attempt to claim justification for their actions based upon past persecution, and then turn around and persecute people.

I know. Many Muslim states have persecuted what they considered undesireables over the centuries anyway.

And I don't think it's self righteous to disregard a racist statement when I see one. There's nothing inherently extremist about the Muslim immigrations into Europe.

It's only racist if you disagree with it.

And the idea for a pure German state goes back beyond the rise of Hitler to power, it doesn't make it any less hypocritical. The Holocaust was what they used to gain public sympathy and support for the move, to pretend otherwise is foolish.


And many Muslim states have, but none of them have claimed to be a bright bastion of democracy and freedom from persecution the way Israel does. Which is why it is hypocritical for Israel and not so much for the Muslim states. That doesn't make them good, just not hypocritical the way Israel is.

And I'm sure the KKK would say the same about their opinions towards African Americans, that doesn't make their views any less racist.

[Genivaria]

Hey wheres that Israeli Homesh? I woulda thought he'd be here.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Actually, a lot of countries do recognize Palestine.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... s_only.png

India recognises Palestine?

Must admit I didn't know that. Though I meant internationally.

You need UNSC approval. Though I'm not sure if you can appeal to the UNGA as well...

Of course we do. We need the Muslim vote.

[Individual Impersonators]

But there aren't any "true" Jews left. Most are now Caucasian in nature (some who are born in Israel have darker pigmentation and eyes due to the climate). As I said, define a "pure Israeli". Which you can't. Because there are none.

As is, there is already a sizeable minority of Arabs in Israel. But I can understand how they would be a little concerned with people like that. I can only imagine what those in Europe think with a potential breeding ground for extremism thanks to the waves of Muslim migrants.

...You're just deliberately not getting the point now. The State of Israel doesn't want Non-Jews in their midst, it's a clear goal of theirs is a State dedicated to Judaism.

And that's a terribly hypocritical goal on their part. I don't see what's so hard to grasp about that.

And I'm not even going to merit the "extremists muslims!" part of your post with a response.

Looking at countries in the middle east, Israel is by far the most democratic, religously diverse and culturally diverse.

If Israel did not want any non-jews in their midst prehaps they should have copied a few policies from other countries.
Iran, Egypt, Turkey
They have almost completely removed all non-muslims.

The fact is, Israel is at war. They are attacked with rockets continously. Allowing anyone in without a proper security check is risky for a country in war. Palestine, the nation they are fighting is not banned from becoming citizens. A security check is however required.

It seems sensible enough to me.

And if you really do think Israel is racist, what about Palestine? Care to look at the percentage of non-jews and non-muslims in both nations. I suspect Palestine has been far more effective at removing some people from its midst.

[Individual Impersonators]

No. The idea for a state specifically for the Jews predates Nazi persecution by decades. There was a Zionist fund dedicated to purchasing land in Palestine for Jews to settle on, away from persecution in eastern Europe. The idea for a pure Jewish state is as almost as old as the idea for a pure German state itself.



I know. Many Muslim states have persecuted what they considered undesireables over the centuries anyway.



It's only racist if you disagree with it.

And the idea for a pure German state goes back beyond the rise of Hitler to power, it doesn't make it any less hypocritical. The Holocaust was what they used to gain public sympathy and support for the move, to pretend otherwise is foolish.


And many Muslim states have, but none of them have claimed to be a bright bastion of democracy and freedom from persecution the way Israel does. Which is why it is hypocritical for Israel and not so much for the Muslim states. That doesn't make them good, just not hypocritical the way Israel is.

And I'm sure the KKK would say the same about their opinions towards African Americans, that doesn't make their views any less racist.

Israel is not a jewish state anymore that America, Australia and other countries are a Christian state. There is at least a 16% muslim population in Israel
Many of Israels neighbours lack a 1% non-muslim population.

The act is all about security. Allowing a person in from a neighbouring country where rockets get fired at you from on a regular basis without a security check is a foolish thing to do.

Can you state that Israeli's that have moved to Palestine have been accepted with open arms? I would like to see a case of a former Israeli moving to Palestine.

[Zeth Rekia]

I wonder how long it's gonna take to start seeing extremist Jews blowing shit up for Yahweh or whatever.

[Gauthier]

I wonder how long it's gonna take to start seeing extremist Jews blowing shit up for Yahweh or whatever.

They could build Camps for Palestinians and nobody would give a shit.

[Zeth Rekia]

I wonder how long it's gonna take to start seeing extremist Jews blowing shit up for Yahweh or whatever.

They could build Camps for Palestinians and nobody would give a shit.

Except the tycoons running amok.

[Vault 1]

I wonder how long it's gonna take to start seeing extremist Jews blowing shit up for Yahweh or whatever.

-3 years.

[Forster Keys]

I wonder how long it's gonna take to start seeing extremist Jews blowing shit up for Yahweh or whatever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism

Nutters have been doing it before the creation of Israel and after.

[Costa Fiero]

And the idea for a pure German state goes back beyond the rise of Hitler to power, it doesn't make it any less hypocritical. The Holocaust was what they used to gain public sympathy and support for the move, to pretend otherwise is foolish.

That's what I was meaning. The idea of a Jewish state goes back to the foundation of a Jewish National Fund and the World Zionist Organisation, which were active in the late 19th-early 20th centuries. The National Fund brought land off Palestinians (and the British) for Jews to settle on. The Holocaust only made it more of a necessity rather than a dream.

And many Muslim states have, but none of them have claimed to be a bright bastion of democracy and freedom from persecution the way Israel does. Which is why it is hypocritical for Israel and not so much for the Muslim states. That doesn't make them good, just not hypocritical the way Israel is.

You can still be democratic and still discriminate against minorities, like France and the US. Israel is still a democracy. There aren't many other states that are so.

[Zeth Rekia]

I wonder how long it's gonna take to start seeing extremist Jews blowing shit up for Yahweh or whatever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism

Nutters have been doing it before the creation of Israel and after.

Khaaaaaannnnnnn!!!!

[Forster Keys]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism

Nutters have been doing it before the creation of Israel and after.

Khaaaaaannnnnnn!!!!

I don't get it...

[Zeth Rekia]

I don't get it...

No hard feelings.

What's so hypocritical? How many states around Israel openly discriminate against non-Muslims? How many states around Israel forbid people to convert to another religion?

Israel does this stuff?

[Fanaglia]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16526469

This just frustrates me really, marriage conveying citizenship (in my very limited knowledge) is quite common generally, and I also have a generally dislike social engineering to try and keep a state a particular ethnicity.

Gee, I wonder if that law may not have had a little something to do with the waves of fucking suicide bombers using every expedient available to cosy up to large groups of Israeli civilians at the time?

Face the facts: if a nation is forced to live under siege by 60 years of "neighbours" wanting to kill it, then it will develop a siege mentality. Can't say I especially blame them, either. Is it hard on the Palestinians who do fall in love with Jewish men/women? Sure it is, and probably unfair too, but their own neighbours and coreligionists - on both sides of the relationship - will be even harder on them, given the state of Islamic-Jewish relations generally, and especially in the Holy Land.

I have some sympathy for the lovelorn couples, but not all that much. Given the state of Israel's relations with the Palestinian people and its neighbours, such a relationship is bound to become, to a greater or lesser degree, a Romeo and Juliet story. And R&J stories, whilst entertaining in the abstract, are tragedies, so I'd rather they be kept to a minimum in real life.

Finally, any nation - any nation! - has the right to determine who is, and is not, a citizen, and on what terms - if any - it grants citizenship to people not of its nation. Every nation imposes, or has imposed in the past, at least one requirement which seems at least a bit odd (in quite a few cases, outright-offensive) to other nations. Consider the Jewish former citizens of Egypt, deported from the land of their birth after the 1948 pogroms or later after the Six Day War. Indeed, these same Muslims who are crying "Foul!" may well wish to consider the history of Jews in Islamic lands, especially since the creation of Israel. Sauce for the goose....

As to marriage granting citizenship: In Germany, marrying a German does not automatically make one eligible for German citizenship. Russian nationality law, to my knowledge, makes no mention of spousal eligibility. Nor does Indian nationality law. And while it is an aid in French naturalisation to be married to a French citizen (reducing the other requirements), it does not automatically confer citizenship upon application. Even in the USA, where marriage to a US citizen does grant pretty-much automatic green cards (although only if the marriage is valid throughout the entire USA - hence the many stories of same-sex partners being told to leave the country when their visas expire, due to DOMA's pernicious effects), the waiting time is hardly shortened.

This:

marriage conveying citizenship (in my very limited knowledge) is quite common generally

is perhaps not so true as you believe. As such, Israel's refusal to abide by it - when so many other nations do not - is not so remarkable as you are claiming, for the purpose of triggering (yet another) avalanche of knee-jerk Israel-bashing by the usual suspects here on NSG.

OK, I was planning on just lurking in this thread and not actually posting, but I need to throw in my two cents here. The whole "Meh, sucks for them [Palestinians], but hey, it doesn't affect me and it's not that bad, anyway" attitude is how it all starts. Next thing you know, there's separate drinking fountains and restrooms, then they're forced to live in ghettos (already in effect), then they're forbidden from walking on the sidewalk, then they're being carted off to the gas chamber. Hey, it's not like they're real people, right? Even if they are people, they're not Jewish people, so they don't count as much.

[Zaras]

If Israel did not want any non-jews in their midst prehaps they should have copied a few policies from other countries.
Iran, Egypt, Turkey

Turkey. The country that committed the Armenian Genocide. The country that oppressed/opresses Kurds.

What the hell are you saying, you want Israel to start genociding Arabs? Do you not see ANYTHING wrong with this statement?

[Ourfgenstan (Ancient)]

Don't 70 percent of Israelies support the state of Palestine anyway?

Not to mention in America the majority of Jews vote for Democrats, which means the majority of Jews are generally not massively Zionist.