Israel upholds citizenship bar for Palestinian spouses

[Kazomal]

How's that ethnic cleansing going, Israel? Can't have dirty Arabs becoming citizens, Jews only! Did you catch the line about "national suicide?" It's ironic that Israel puts such a premium on the ethnic makeup of their population. Especially considering that modern-day Palestinians are genetically closer to ancient Israelis than are modern-day Israelis, most of whom are of European immigrant stock.

No. We should criticize all of them, and refuse to support any of them.

yeah...lets...

Yes, let's. Is there a problem with calling out all civil rights abusers, rather than just the "worst?"

[North Calaveras]

yeah...lets...

Yes, let's. Is there a problem with calling out all civil rights abusers, rather than just the "worst?"

nope, but there is a problem with ignoring the worst and going after the minors.

[Kazomal]

Yes, let's. Is there a problem with calling out all civil rights abusers, rather than just the "worst?"

nope, but there is a problem with ignoring the worst and going after the minors.

I agree. I disagree that Israel is a "minor" offender, but I agree that you shouldn't ignore the worst abusers, but that you should call them all out.

[Terishany]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16526469

This just frustrates me really, marriage conveying citizenship (in my very limited knowledge) is quite common generally, and I also have a generally dislike social engineering to try and keep a state a particular ethnicity.

Gee, I wonder if that law may not have had a little something to do with the waves of fucking suicide bombers using every expedient available to cosy up to large groups of Israeli civilians at the time?

Face the facts: if a nation is forced to live under siege by 60 years of "neighbours" wanting to kill it, then it will develop a siege mentality. Can't say I especially blame them, either. Is it hard on the Palestinians who do fall in love with Jewish men/women? Sure it is, and probably unfair too, but their own neighbours and coreligionists - on both sides of the relationship - will be even harder on them, given the state of Islamic-Jewish relations generally, and especially in the Holy Land.

I have some sympathy for the lovelorn couples, but not all that much. Given the state of Israel's relations with the Palestinian people and its neighbours, such a relationship is bound to become, to a greater or lesser degree, a Romeo and Juliet story. And R&J stories, whilst entertaining in the abstract, are tragedies, so I'd rather they be kept to a minimum in real life.

Finally, any nation - any nation! - has the right to determine who is, and is not, a citizen, and on what terms - if any - it grants citizenship to people not of its nation. Every nation imposes, or has imposed in the past, at least one requirement which seems at least a bit odd (in quite a few cases, outright-offensive) to other nations. Consider the Jewish former citizens of Egypt, deported from the land of their birth after the 1948 pogroms or later after the Six Day War. Indeed, these same Muslims who are crying "Foul!" may well wish to consider the history of Jews in Islamic lands, especially since the creation of Israel. Sauce for the goose....

As to marriage granting citizenship: In Germany, marrying a German does not automatically make one eligible for German citizenship. Russian nationality law, to my knowledge, makes no mention of spousal eligibility. Nor does Indian nationality law. And while it is an aid in French naturalisation to be married to a French citizen (reducing the other requirements), it does not automatically confer citizenship upon application. Even in the USA, where marriage to a US citizen does grant pretty-much automatic green cards (although only if the marriage is valid throughout the entire USA - hence the many stories of same-sex partners being told to leave the country when their visas expire, due to DOMA's pernicious effects), the waiting time is hardly shortened.

This:

marriage conveying citizenship (in my very limited knowledge) is quite common generally

is perhaps not so true as you believe. As such, Israel's refusal to abide by it - when so many other nations do not - is not so remarkable as you are claiming, for the purpose of triggering (yet another) avalanche of knee-jerk Israel-bashing by the usual suspects here on NSG.

^^^
This. Exactly. It's difficult and painting with a broad brush, but they have to.

[North Calaveras]

nope, but there is a problem with ignoring the worst and going after the minors.

I agree. I disagree that Israel is a "minor" offender, but I agree that you shouldn't ignore the worst abusers, but that you should call them all out.

Okay then, that's what i want, but NSG is stuffed with anti-israel threads, whens the last time you saw anything directed against Palestine and say Hamas?

[Saint Jade IV]

A race to the bottom of the Civil Rights-o-meter is not the way forward, and this is basically what you're endorsing by taking this view.

"At least they're not Saudi Arabia" gives it a lot of room to fall before we're 'justified' in criticising the place. That isn't the right view to take of the world.

Nope. Plenty of torture going on in Jordan, which is why we rendered people over that way. This is not cool.

I'm not really sure it does. Israel gets a lot of leeway in most of the media (especially the US media), because they're supposedly our mates. You think if the government of Iran bombed anywhere and killed 1,000 civilians, regardless of the supposed legitimacy of what they were intending to do, they'd get anything other than "STICK A NUKE DOWN THE AYATOLLAH'S JAPSEYE"?

Nary a fucking chance.

Perhaps the issue is more with the safety of journalists in these areas and the openness of the population to foreigners generally when places such as Saudi Arabia have paranoid governments who are pretty keen to get the blades out. Had you thought of this?

But at least shouldn't we focus on the worst countrys instead of the minor offenders? Israel is a minor offender compared to the civil rights abuses that go on in say Palestine or Iran.

Iran makes no pretences to being a democratic state which respects the civil rights of its populace. Israel blathers constantly about being the "sole democracy" in the Middle East, and about how it is the exemplar for civil rights. If it wants that title, it needs to accept the criticisms for its civil rights abuses moreso than countries who have no inclination to seek that title.

[North Calaveras]

But at least shouldn't we focus on the worst countrys instead of the minor offenders? Israel is a minor offender compared to the civil rights abuses that go on in say Palestine or Iran.

Iran makes no pretences to being a democratic state which respects the civil rights of its populace. Israel blathers constantly about being the "sole democracy" in the Middle East, and about how it is the exemplar for civil rights. If it wants that title, it needs to accept the criticisms for its civil rights abuses moreso than countries who have no inclination to seek that title.

And what about palestine?

[Kazomal]

Gee, I wonder if that law may not have had a little something to do with the waves of fucking suicide bombers using every expedient available to cosy up to large groups of Israeli civilians at the time?

Face the facts: if a nation is forced to live under siege by 60 years of "neighbours" wanting to kill it, then it will develop a siege mentality. Can't say I especially blame them, either. Is it hard on the Palestinians who do fall in love with Jewish men/women? Sure it is, and probably unfair too, but their own neighbours and coreligionists - on both sides of the relationship - will be even harder on them, given the state of Islamic-Jewish relations generally, and especially in the Holy Land.

I have some sympathy for the lovelorn couples, but not all that much. Given the state of Israel's relations with the Palestinian people and its neighbours, such a relationship is bound to become, to a greater or lesser degree, a Romeo and Juliet story. And R&J stories, whilst entertaining in the abstract, are tragedies, so I'd rather they be kept to a minimum in real life.

Finally, any nation - any nation! - has the right to determine who is, and is not, a citizen, and on what terms - if any - it grants citizenship to people not of its nation. Every nation imposes, or has imposed in the past, at least one requirement which seems at least a bit odd (in quite a few cases, outright-offensive) to other nations. Consider the Jewish former citizens of Egypt, deported from the land of their birth after the 1948 pogroms or later after the Six Day War. Indeed, these same Muslims who are crying "Foul!" may well wish to consider the history of Jews in Islamic lands, especially since the creation of Israel. Sauce for the goose....

As to marriage granting citizenship: In Germany, marrying a German does not automatically make one eligible for German citizenship. Russian nationality law, to my knowledge, makes no mention of spousal eligibility. Nor does Indian nationality law. And while it is an aid in French naturalisation to be married to a French citizen (reducing the other requirements), it does not automatically confer citizenship upon application. Even in the USA, where marriage to a US citizen does grant pretty-much automatic green cards (although only if the marriage is valid throughout the entire USA - hence the many stories of same-sex partners being told to leave the country when their visas expire, due to DOMA's pernicious effects), the waiting time is hardly shortened.

This:



is perhaps not so true as you believe. As such, Israel's refusal to abide by it - when so many other nations do not - is not so remarkable as you are claiming, for the purpose of triggering (yet another) avalanche of knee-jerk Israel-bashing by the usual suspects here on NSG.

^^^
This. Exactly. It's difficult and painting with a broad brush, but they have to.

BS. Any of you been to Israel/Palestine? Yeah, there's hate and extremism, but there's also many, many people who just want to live in peace, and who aren't violent racists.

Besides, this law doesn't stop Jews and Palestinians (by the by, there are many Palestinian citizens of Israel) from marrying, it just means that your spouse doesn't going Israeli citizenship. It is, by the judge's own admission, designed to make sure that Palestinians don't become citizens of Israel, because Israel likes to keep a hold on the ethnic makeup of their populace. European Jews? Check. Everyone else, particular arabs and Palestinians who were driven off of their homes? Big ol' X.

[Sathera]

Ironically, if Israel stays on the path it's going down, it's going to somewhat resemble the Third Reich pretty soon. I still have no idea why the U.S supports them...

[Yootwopia]

And what about palestine?

Which bit?

The bit with the basically unelected head of state that tried and failed to use violence to unite the country? Or the bit where the leadership, which is at least elected, is sketchy?

[Saint Jade IV]

Iran makes no pretences to being a democratic state which respects the civil rights of its populace. Israel blathers constantly about being the "sole democracy" in the Middle East, and about how it is the exemplar for civil rights. If it wants that title, it needs to accept the criticisms for its civil rights abuses moreso than countries who have no inclination to seek that title.

And what about palestine?

Palestine isn't a state yet. When it becomes a state, and that government commits the same crimes against Israel that terrorists (who incidently, are criticised frequently - it's just not as much fun in the media as bashing leftists who suggest that maybe there's a way to prevent it that's more effective than doing the thing which caused the attacks in the first place) are currently committing, while pretending to be a democratic state that respects civil rights, then we can talk.

Though, I don't really see Palestinian politicians crapping on about how respectful they intend to be of civil rights and democracy. Which is what Israel does.

[Yootwopia]

Ironically, if Israel stays on the path it's going down, it's going to somewhat resemble the Third Reich pretty soon. I still have no idea why the U.S supports them...

It's not ironic, and things used to be a lot worse for Arab citizens and Palestinians alike, although I agree that things are definitely getting worse and have been for a little while. Ariel Sharon, for all his faults, was Not That Bad. Bebe is practically a seventies throwback, and his kind of 'haters gonna hate' foreign and domestic policy is just totally inappropriate for today.

[Kazomal]

I agree. I disagree that Israel is a "minor" offender, but I agree that you shouldn't ignore the worst abusers, but that you should call them all out.

Okay then, that's what i want, but NSG is stuffed with anti-israel threads, whens the last time you saw anything directed against Palestine and say Hamas?

A ton. I could go quote-searching, but I don't have quite that much time on my hands, so here's this:

I, Kazomal, as a supporter of the people of Palestine and a hater of Israeli actions in the mid-east, condemn, in no uncertain terms, the terrorist organization of Hamas. Hamas are enemies of peace, and of the good of the Palestinian people.

Iranians also live under a brutal and illegitimate regime (although it was the US who smashed functioning democracy in Iran and paved the way for this), and North Korea is no good, too.

Any other legitimately no-good groups you'd like liberal ol' me to denounce?

Just because I hate it when Israel, the US, et al, commit atrocities doesn't mean I'm throwing in with butchers like Ahmadinejad, or am ignoring the crimes of other brutal regimes.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Wrong.

State and Nation are not synonymous.

Patriotism is loyalty to the state.

Civic nationalism is the only form of nationalism synonymous with patriotism.

Incorrect.

Nationalism is a political ideology that involves a strong identification of a group of individuals with a political entity defined in national terms, i.e. a nation.

...

Conversely, nationalism might also be portrayed as collective identities toward imagined communities which are not naturally expressed in language, race or religion but rather socially constructed by the very individuals that belong to a given nation

Also, territorial nationalism.

Pretty sure my textbooks trump wikipedia.

In any case, the author linked to in the Wikipedia link, Anthony D. Smith notes a:

distinction between 'civic' and 'ethnic' types of nations and nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_D._Smith

Thus since there are different kinds of nationalism, a prominent kind of which is ethnic nationalism, using it interchangeably with patriotism is unhelpful and confusing because not all national groups are coterminous with the political boundaries of a state (though civic/territorial nationalism is - but since nationalism is not limited to just that...). Hence:

A state is not a nation, or a people, though it may contain a single nation, parts of different nations, or a number of entire nations.

Http://philosophy.wisc.edu/hunt/A%20Def ... 0State.htm

1) State are not nations; these are distinct analytical categories,
2) Nations can, and will, be very diverse within themselves,
3) Nations, not states, are the bearers of popular sovereignty; and,

http://www.psa.ac.uk/journals/pdf/5/2011/553_132.pdf

Nationalism is not patriotism

http://www.jstor.org/stable/4418563

Unless you specify that you are referring to "civic" (or territorial) nationalism, you really shouldn't be using the two terms interchangeably.

So? Why can't we hold "grudges" against countries that discriminate on the basis of religion?

And you think Israel's neighbours don't? I'm certainly not going to claim that Israel is perfect on those issues - the way the Arab Israelis are treated is, to say the least, disturbing - but look at its neighbours, starting to the north.

Turkey is a country occupying land that was, historically, religiously diverse - until a wave of genocides committed by the Turks against minorities such as the Armenians turned it into the 96% Muslim country it is today.
Lebanon is sorta OK, although relations between the religious sects are tense, to say the least, and the ability/will of the central government to do anything about it is effectively nil.
Syria's government really is a bloodthirsty dictatorship.
Iraq...well, Iraq is interesting, to say the least. Suffice it to say that things there aren't going to be pretty for some time to come.
Saudi Arabia stipulates, in the Basic Law (Constitutional equivalent) that all citizens are Sunni Muslims. And that conversion away from Islam (apostasy) is punishable by death.

You honestly think I don't have an issue with the Saudi government, being an "apostate" myself!?

When I say I have issues with Israel - that doesn't at all preclude me having issues with other states within the region.

[Kazomal]

Ironically, if Israel stays on the path it's going down, it's going to somewhat resemble the Third Reich pretty soon. I still have no idea why the U.S supports them...

It's not ironic, and things used to be a lot worse for Arab citizens and Palestinians alike, although I agree that things are definitely getting worse and have been for a little while. Ariel Sharon, for all his faults, was Not That Bad. Bebe is practically a seventies throwback, and his kind of 'haters gonna hate' foreign and domestic policy is just totally inappropriate for today.

Sharon had that heart attack and had a resulting change of perspective and attack of conscience, is my theory.

[Conserative Morality]

Pretty sure my textbooks trump wikipedia.

In any case, the author linked to in the Wikipedia link, Anthony D. Smith notes a:

distinction between 'civic' and 'ethnic' types of nations and nationalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_D._Smith

Thus since there are different kinds of nationalism, a prominent kind of which is ethnic nationalism, using it interchangeably with patriotism is unhelpful and confusing because not all national groups are coterminous with the political boundaries of a state (though civic/territorial nationalism is - but since nationalism is not limited to just that...). Hence:

A state is not a nation, or a people, though it may contain a single nation, parts of different nations, or a number of entire nations.

Http://philosophy.wisc.edu/hunt/A%20Def ... 0State.htm

1) State are not nations; these are distinct analytical categories,
2) Nations can, and will, be very diverse within themselves,
3) Nations, not states, are the bearers of popular sovereignty; and,

http://www.psa.ac.uk/journals/pdf/5/2011/553_132.pdf

Unless you specify that you are referring to "civic" (or territorial) nationalism, you really shouldn't be using the two terms interchangeably.

na·tion·al·ism/ˈnaSHənəˌlizəm/
Noun:
Patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
An extreme form of this, esp. marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

na·tion·al·ism (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)
n.
1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

na·tion·al·ism   [nash-uh-nl-iz-uhm, nash-nuh-liz-] Show IPA
noun
1.
national spirit or aspirations.
2.
devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism.
3.
excessive patriotism; chauvinism.
4.
the desire for national advancement or independence.
5.
the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.

na·tion   [ney-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.

Definition of NATION

1
a (1) : nationality 5a (2) : a politically organized nationality (3) : a non-Jewish nationality <why do the nations conspire — Psalms 2:1 (Revised Standard Version)>
b : a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government
c : a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nationalism
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=nationalism&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=6oYPT-voI4bo0QHzsJG-Aw&ved=0CCcQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=f50ca8a27eb5324b&biw=1280&bih=919
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nation
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nation

[Cruciland]

Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. Yep, not a racist/theocratic state at all.

PLEASE say you were sarcastic.

[Yootwopia]

It's not ironic, and things used to be a lot worse for Arab citizens and Palestinians alike, although I agree that things are definitely getting worse and have been for a little while. Ariel Sharon, for all his faults, was Not That Bad. Bebe is practically a seventies throwback, and his kind of 'haters gonna hate' foreign and domestic policy is just totally inappropriate for today.

Sharon had that heart attack and had a resulting change of perspective and attack of conscience, is my theory.

Sharon resembles many items at your local greengrocer's so hasn't really had much of a say for the last five or so years, and Olmert was a terrible leader who was linked with weakness due to falling to a leadership contest by Livni. Unfortunately for her, she had too many ovaries to appeal to the Ultra-Orthodox crowd (why they can even vote is fucking beyond me but there we are) and so was replaced by Bebe who is just a massive prick is mine.

[Gauthier]

Ironically, if Israel stays on the path it's going down, it's going to somewhat resemble the Third Reich pretty soon. I still have no idea why the U.S supports them...

Fundie belief that Israel burning is a Bat Signal to Jesus.

[Yootwopia]

Ironically, if Israel stays on the path it's going down, it's going to somewhat resemble the Third Reich pretty soon. I still have no idea why the U.S supports them...

Fundie belief that Israel burning is a Bat Signal to Jesus.

Also every time the US supports an Arab state things tend to go horribly wrong, perhaps because the good folks in the State Department think that they're basically noble savages or something and so a bit of treasure and a pat on the back is really 'enough' to get them to bow down to the United States instead of persuing their own policy objectives.

[Kazomal]

Sharon had that heart attack and had a resulting change of perspective and attack of conscience, is my theory.

Sharon resembles many items at your local greengrocer's so hasn't really had much of a say for the last five or so years, and Olmert was a terrible leader who was linked with weakness due to falling to a leadership contest by Livni. Unfortunately for her, she had too many ovaries to appeal to the Ultra-Orthodox crowd (why they can even vote is fucking beyond me but there we are) and so was replaced by Bebe who is just a massive prick is mine.

Right, I meant that I think he had a small "warning heart attack" or two, then got the attack of conscience, and continued to govern until the big one put him on the bench.

[Yootwopia]

Sharon resembles many items at your local greengrocer's so hasn't really had much of a say for the last five or so years, and Olmert was a terrible leader who was linked with weakness due to falling to a leadership contest by Livni. Unfortunately for her, she had too many ovaries to appeal to the Ultra-Orthodox crowd (why they can even vote is fucking beyond me but there we are) and so was replaced by Bebe who is just a massive prick is mine.

Right, I meant that I think he had a small "warning heart attack" or two, then got the attack of conscience, and continued to govern until the big one put him on the bench.

Oooh. Right, yeah. Erm I don't think he really did have that much of an attack of conscience, his "gtfo you stupid settlers and stop ruining everything" scheme was going on before he had one of those mini strokes or whatever IIRC.

[Kazomal]

Ironically, if Israel stays on the path it's going down, it's going to somewhat resemble the Third Reich pretty soon. I still have no idea why the U.S supports them...

Fundie belief that Israel burning is a Bat Signal to Jesus.

Not Israel burning, Israel restored. When The Arabs are gone and the Jews dynamite their mosque and rebuild The Temple, then Jesus will come back and do whatever it is crazy people think Jesus will do. These people have actual power in the US government, is the scary part.

I'm a Christian, but I'm no wacko.

[Gauthier]

Fundie belief that Israel burning is a Bat Signal to Jesus.

Not Israel burning, Israel restored. When The Arabs are gone and the Jews dynamite their mosque and rebuild The Temple, then Jesus will come back and do whatever it is crazy people think Jesus will do. These people have actual power in the US government, is the scary part.

I'm a Christian, but I'm no wacko.

Can't restore Israel if it didn't burn in the first place.

[EnragedMaldivians]

na·tion·al·ism/ˈnaSHənəˌlizəm/
Noun:
Patriotic feeling, principles, or efforts.
An extreme form of this, esp. marked by a feeling of superiority over other countries.

na·tion·al·ism (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)
n.
1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

na·tion·al·ism   [nash-uh-nl-iz-uhm, nash-nuh-liz-] Show IPA
noun
1.
national spirit or aspirations.
2.
devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism.
3.
excessive patriotism; chauvinism.
4.
the desire for national advancement or independence.
5.
the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.

na·tion   [ney-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1.
a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own: The president spoke to the nation about the new tax.

Definition of NATION

1
a (1) : nationality 5a (2) : a politically organized nationality (3) : a non-Jewish nationality <why do the nations conspire — Psalms 2:1 (Revised Standard Version)>
b : a community of people composed of one or more nationalities and possessing a more or less defined territory and government
c : a territorial division containing a body of people of one or more nationalities and usually characterized by relatively large size and independent status

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nationalism
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&safe=off&q=nationalism&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=6oYPT-voI4bo0QHzsJG-Aw&ved=0CCcQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=f50ca8a27eb5324b&biw=1280&bih=919
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nation
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nation

There is more than one definition to a nation; nations are not necessarily coterminous with states; using nationalism and patriotism interchangeably is unhelpful, (if not outright wrong, which I shouldn't have claimed). I will maintain that position (I'll have to get back to you later though ). The distinction is there, though admittedly debated.