Israel upholds citizenship bar for Palestinian spouses

[North Calaveras]

please quote me where i defend brutality against Palestinians/Arabs on their own land, ill wait.

Racism.

If i was an arab id be more scared of my people killing me cause that's why they do.(for clarification sake not all of them, otherwise ill get gang banged by the usual suspects here)

Replace the world why, with what, which is what you were meant to say, and that is a broad racial generalisation against Arabs, saying thats what Arabs do, then saying not all of them, doesn't make sense. It was a racial comment.

Gauthier wrote:
At this point Israel could establish "special camps" for Palestinians and/or Arabs and NC would still act like every Jew in existence was being driven out to sea.

depends on how the camps were operated also depends on the reasons.

You stupidly defend concentration camps for on Palestinians and Arabs, due to there ethnicity, I don't see how you could get more racist than that.

You also defend Israel discriminating against non Jews.

You don't think there's anything wrong with Israel discriminating against other religions?

I think its wrong but in their situation it might be necessary, that's my opinion.

wow...wow...

okay lets do this

Remember how i said i didn't think Arab was a race i guess you passed that part, so put that into perspective, that takes care of the top part(you obviously didn't read all my posts otherwise you would have seen that)

I said i think its wrong, but in their situation it MIGHT be neccesary I also said it depends on how these camps were ran and the reasons why they were being runned.

You don't have shit on me is essentially what im saying.

[Dagnia]

Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. Yep, not a racist/theocratic state at all.

I see nothing racist or theocratic about it. They are just doing what they think will protect their country, and they don't prescribe to the lemming notion that you have to completely exclude any considerations of national origin. I personally would oppose this law, as I don't think it is the right way to go about it.

[Chinese Regions]

Racism isn't just color of skin. It's about RACE.

A really nice example of it would be East Asia. Everyone here's yellow, but of a different race. The Japanese are commonly referred to as "evil barbarian monkeys" by students here in Korea, and 34.1% of South Koreans answered in a survey by the Korean Immigrant Workers Human Rights Center that everyone of the Japanese race should be expelled from Korea.

You don't think that's racism cuz they arr yerrow?

well you made a comparision that persians and iraqis are a race so saying that iraqi is a race is just like saying Americans are their own race as well.

There's WASPs

[North Calaveras]

I really want to actually, as well as of 40k tabletop. But now were getting off topic

Dark Heresy is awesome. Highly recommended.

I'm going to college soon, might start doing that.

[Gravlen]

It's not recognised, though.

Yet.

Though I think they were recognised officially by some official UN body.

I'm pretty sure you are not a state de jure until the security council recognizes you; not 100% certain.

No, actually, it's not a requirement. The requirements under customary international law is:
1) The state has a certain a population,
2) on a certain territory,
3) which is organized under an effective public authority (internal sovereignty), and
4) is (legally) independent of other States (external sovereignty).

Getting membership in the UN requires UNSC approval though.

[EnragedMaldivians]

I'm pretty sure you are not a state de jure until the security council recognizes you; not 100% certain.

No, actually, it's not a requirement. The requirements under customary international law is:
1) The state has a certain a population,
2) on a certain territory,
3) which is organized under an effective public authority (internal sovereignty), and
4) is (legally) independent of other States (external sovereignty).

Getting membership in the UN requires UNSC approval though.

Ah; I should know this. Thank you.

[SaintB]

Hate to invoke Godwin's Law but I can't help but notice the parallels between the modern Israeli State and Germany under the Nazi's. Short of gassing millions to death they have remarkable similarities. Of course the Jews occupying that land using claim their god gave to them and killing/maiming/enslaving the inhabitants has been going on since the dawn of recorded history.

[New Chalcedon]

I don't troll, trolling is immature

I do have a real arguement, someone claimed rascism to be the cause even though Jewish majority dosn't imply race it implys religion. If that's isn't a valid arguement i dont know what is.

Yes i do think NSG has a grudge against israel

So? Why can't we hold "grudges" against countries that discriminate on the basis of religion?

And you think Israel's neighbours don't? I'm certainly not going to claim that Israel is perfect on those issues - the way the Arab Israelis are treated is, to say the least, disturbing - but look at its neighbours, starting to the north.

Turkey is a country occupying land that was, historically, religiously diverse - until a wave of genocides committed by the Turks against minorities such as the Armenians turned it into the 96% Muslim country it is today.
Lebanon is sorta OK, although relations between the religious sects are tense, to say the least, and the ability/will of the central government to do anything about it is effectively nil.
Syria's government really is a bloodthirsty dictatorship.
Iraq...well, Iraq is interesting, to say the least. Suffice it to say that things there aren't going to be pretty for some time to come.
Saudi Arabia stipulates, in the Basic Law (Constitutional equivalent) that all citizens are Sunni Muslims. And that conversion away from Islam (apostasy) is punishable by death.
Jordan - amazingly - is actually relatively OK. There are some (mostly formalised) issues, such as a one-way prohibition on conversion away from Islam, but otherwise is mostly good. Although it *did* expel the entire Jewish population after the 1948 war with Israel.
Finally, Egypt falls somewhere between the two extremes of Jordan and Saudi Arabia. The President must be a Muslim, officially Shari'a is the basis of the legal code (Any law which contradicts Shari'a is invalid) and in practice non-Muslims find it....difficult to gain approval and permits for such matters as the construction and maintenance of places of worship and the like. However, while conversion away from Islam is difficult (to say the least), it is not imposible or overtly forbidden, and religious minorities have some protections under the law.

With all of this shit going on in the vicinity, I find it extremely odd - to say the least - that Israel comes in for so much criticism by the mainstream media, while these other nations' practices (in some cases, unarguably worse) go unremarked. A trend that is echoed here on NSG.

Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East. Yep, not a racist/theocratic state at all.

I see nothing racist or theocratic about it. They are just doing what they think will protect their country, and they don't prescribe to the lemming notion that you have to completely exclude any considerations of national origin. I personally would oppose this law, as I don't think it is the right way to go about it.

There are at least some systematic discriminations in Israel against non-Jews, or more accurately in favour of Jews - easier immigration, moderately preferential access to government-funded loans, a few other things. All in all, not exactly terrible - but also far from perfect. There's no need to particularly whitewash Israel's treatment of non-Jews (it stacks up favourably to all of its neighbouring states' treatment of Jews), so please don't.

Having said that, certainly the basis of this law - and its justification by its supporters - is one of security, not religion or ethnicity. The law's writers reasoned that Palestinians are more likely than any other ethnic group to be within Israel's borders for purposes of mischief, and so closed an avenue of entry. They may have been wrong in their reasoning - although I do not believe so - but it was neither religiously-based nor race-based.

I'm pretty sure you are not a state de jure until the security council recognizes you; not 100% certain.

No, actually, it's not a requirement. The requirements under customary international law is:
1) The state has a certain a population,
2) on a certain territory,
3) which is organized under an effective public authority (internal sovereignty), and
4) is (legally) independent of other States (external sovereignty).

Getting membership in the UN requires UNSC approval though.

I was always under the impression that some degree of recognition was essential, as part of criterion (4). Also, you may wish to edit (1) To be "The State must have a resident population". There is no requirement on how large that population must be. See: Vatican City, Andorra, Palau, Tuvalu, Nauru, etc. etc.

so you should be considered a racist for defending brutality against Palestinians/Arabs on there own land.

That's rather the question: is it their own land? The Partition borders of Israel were utterly indefensible (in a military sense, as well as morally), and I for one do not blame Israel for seeking at least marginally more defensible - not to mention defined - borders after having been attacked by four other nations within 24 hours of the nation's foundation. And before you go on about how the Palestinians were supposed to get a State under partition, I'd like to point out they did: the Kingdom of Jordan was, at the time, the eastern 2/3 of the British Mandate of Palestine. That was most of what the Palestinians were supposed to get out of partition, and they did get most of it.

So you have to be a certain ethnicity in order to be a citizen? How is this not fascism exactly?

I see while the Jews were enduring the Nazis they took good notes.

Restrictive immigration requirements =/= Auschwitz.

FYI, there are many Muslim, Arabic citizens of Israel - they comprise about 20% of the population, and are full citizens of Israel, with - at least in theory - fully equal rights under the law. How well those laws are enforced is a topic meriting debate, but that the law proclaims the equality of all citizens of Israel is simple reality.

Further FYI, Palestinians can and do become Israeli citizens by process of naturalisation. The only thing this law does is remove the automatic citizenship grant to Palestinian spouses of Israeli citizens - they can still apply for, and be granted, naturalisation on their own merits.

[Conserative Morality]

Wrong.

State and Nation are not synonymous.

Patriotism is loyalty to the state; nationalism is loyalty to the nation.

Civic nationalism is the only form of nationalism synonymous with patriotism.

Incorrect.

Nationalism is a political ideology that involves a strong identification of a group of individuals with a political entity defined in national terms, i.e. a nation.

...

Conversely, nationalism might also be portrayed as collective identities toward imagined communities which are not naturally expressed in language, race or religion but rather socially constructed by the very individuals that belong to a given nation

Also, territorial nationalism.

[Conserative Morality]

And you think Israel's neighbours don't? I'm certainly not going to claim that Israel is perfect on those issues - the way the Arab Israelis are treated is, to say the least, disturbing - but look at its neighbours, starting to the north.

Turkey is a country occupying land that was, historically, religiously diverse - until a wave of genocides committed by the Turks against minorities such as the Armenians turned it into the 96% Muslim country it is today.

Really?

The actions of a country ninety years ago stain it today?

What kind of fucking blood guilt is this shit?

[Maurepas]

Did anybody really expect Israel to give a damn about Civil Rights?

[Allrule]

And you think Israel's neighbours don't? I'm certainly not going to claim that Israel is perfect on those issues - the way the Arab Israelis are treated is, to say the least, disturbing - but look at its neighbours, starting to the north.

Turkey is a country occupying land that was, historically, religiously diverse - until a wave of genocides committed by the Turks against minorities such as the Armenians turned it into the 96% Muslim country it is today.

Really?

The actions of a country ninety years ago stain it today?

What kind of fucking blood guilt is this shit?

Muslims are barbarians, CM.

DONTCHA KNOW

[North Calaveras]

Really?

The actions of a country ninety years ago stain it today?

What kind of fucking blood guilt is this shit?

Muslims are barbarians, CM.

DONTCHA KNOW

They certiainly don't need our help to make them look that way.

[Genivaria]

Did anybody really expect Israel to give a damn about Civil Rights?

[Conserative Morality]

They certiainly don't need our help to make them look that way.

Tell me, does having the initials NC make you an Islamophobe, or is it the other way around?

[Ourfgenstan (Ancient)]

Muslims are barbarians, CM.

DONTCHA KNOW

They certiainly don't need our help to make them look that way.

So first it's racism, now islamophobia.

Ann Coulter, is that you?

[North Calaveras]

They certiainly don't need our help to make them look that way.

Tell me, does having the initials NC make you an Islamophobe, or is it the other way around?

Not my fault they take their religion so seriously.

[Southern Patriots]

Did anybody really expect Israel to give a damn about Civil Rights?

Nope. Security trumps rights there.

Sad to think a state founded over the deaths of 6 million wants to do its best to imitate the orchestrator of that in terms of purist ethnoreligious and nationalist ideology.

[Yootwopia]

And you think Israel's neighbours don't? I'm certainly not going to claim that Israel is perfect on those issues - the way the Arab Israelis are treated is, to say the least, disturbing - but look at its neighbours, starting to the north.

A race to the bottom of the Civil Rights-o-meter is not the way forward, and this is basically what you're endorsing by taking this view.

"At least they're not Saudi Arabia" gives it a lot of room to fall before we're 'justified' in criticising the place. That isn't the right view to take of the world.

*bad place*
Jordan - amazingly - is actually relatively OK.

Nope. Plenty of torture going on in Jordan, which is why we rendered people over that way. This is not cool.

With all of this shit going on in the vicinity, I find it extremely odd - to say the least - that Israel comes in for so much criticism by the mainstream media

I'm not really sure it does. Israel gets a lot of leeway in most of the media (especially the US media), because they're supposedly our mates. You think if the government of Iran bombed anywhere and killed 1,000 civilians, regardless of the supposed legitimacy of what they were intending to do, they'd get anything other than "STICK A NUKE DOWN THE AYATOLLAH'S JAPSEYE"?

Nary a fucking chance.

while these other nations' practices (in some cases, unarguably worse) go unremarked. A trend that is echoed here on NSG.

Perhaps the issue is more with the safety of journalists in these areas and the openness of the population to foreigners generally when places such as Saudi Arabia have paranoid governments who are pretty keen to get the blades out. Had you thought of this?

[Maurepas]

Did anybody really expect Israel to give a damn about Civil Rights?

Nope. Security trumps rights there.

Sad to think a state founded over the deaths of 6 million wants to do its best to imitate the orchestrator of that in terms of purist ethnoreligious and nationalist ideology.

The movement for a purely Israeli state goes back a lot further than just WWII is the problem, and does follow along similar principles as the desire for a purely German state, ironically enough.

[North Calaveras]

And you think Israel's neighbours don't? I'm certainly not going to claim that Israel is perfect on those issues - the way the Arab Israelis are treated is, to say the least, disturbing - but look at its neighbours, starting to the north.

A race to the bottom of the Civil Rights-o-meter is not the way forward, and this is basically what you're endorsing by taking this view.

"At least they're not Saudi Arabia" gives it a lot of room to fall before we're 'justified' in criticising the place. That isn't the right view to take of the world.

*bad place*
Jordan - amazingly - is actually relatively OK.

Nope. Plenty of torture going on in Jordan, which is why we rendered people over that way. This is not cool.

With all of this shit going on in the vicinity, I find it extremely odd - to say the least - that Israel comes in for so much criticism by the mainstream media

I'm not really sure it does. Israel gets a lot of leeway in most of the media (especially the US media), because they're supposedly our mates. You think if the government of Iran bombed anywhere and killed 1,000 civilians, regardless of the supposed legitimacy of what they were intending to do, they'd get anything other than "STICK A NUKE DOWN THE AYATOLLAH'S JAPSEYE"?

Nary a fucking chance.

while these other nations' practices (in some cases, unarguably worse) go unremarked. A trend that is echoed here on NSG.

Perhaps the issue is more with the safety of journalists in these areas and the openness of the population to foreigners generally when places such as Saudi Arabia have paranoid governments who are pretty keen to get the blades out. Had you thought of this?

But at least shouldn't we focus on the worst countrys instead of the minor offenders? Israel is a minor offender compared to the civil rights abuses that go on in say Palestine or Iran.

[Maurepas]

But at least shouldn't we focus on the worst countrys instead of the minor offenders? Israel is a minor offender compared to the civil rights abuses that go on in say Palestine or Iran.

No. We should criticize all of them, and refuse to support any of them.

[North Calaveras]

But at least shouldn't we focus on the worst countrys instead of the minor offenders? Israel is a minor offender compared to the civil rights abuses that go on in say Palestine or Iran.

No. We should criticize all of them, and refuse to support any of them.

yeah...lets...

[Yootwopia]

But at least shouldn't we focus on the worst countrys instead of the minor offenders? Israel is a minor offender compared to the civil rights abuses that go on in say Palestine or Iran.

Israel is not a minor offender. Its continued strangehold on the entire economy and infrastructure Gaza Strip after it was personally offended by the outcome of a democratic election is not a good thing. Relations between the State of Israel and its Berber and Arab citizens are also not especially keen. Its conduct in wars supposedly against terrorist movements have always led to significantly higher ratios of civilian casualities to military casualties - the last wars in Gaza and Lebanon are pretty much testament to that.

As to "should we only focus on the very worst" - no. Have to find the bad in the 'good' states and try to fix that, too. This is why organisations like the ACLU are so important.

[Kazomal]

_