Ex-Gay Conversion Camps: Thoughts?

[Maloys Empire of GORE]

On topic, I definetly disagree with these awful camps, trying to force people to think one way or another. While I personally do not support homosexuality, that does not justify actions such as these.

I fail to see where the love of two (Sentient and consenting) beings becomes 'wrong' or 'disagreeable' at any stage; these camps should never have even been conceived by any thought that there should be disease in someone's choice of affection.

Repeating my comment, that I disagree with homosexuality, but do not support camps like these trying to force people to think a certain way.

You seem to have some sort of attraction towards speaking with me, and I must inform you that I don't have any such attraction towards other people.

[Aazeronia]

I don't see why religion should come up in this argument. I am religious and I don't support these 'conversion camps'. I am sure there are some religions that do not have a problem with gay people, mostly Eastern religions*

*This is a guess based on what little bit of studying I have done on Eastern religions don't hold me to it though.

[Ceannairceach]

I fail to see where the love of two (Sentient and consenting) beings becomes 'wrong' or 'disagreeable' at any stage; these camps should never have even been conceived by any thought that there should be disease in someone's choice of affection.

Repeating my comment, that I disagree with homosexuality, but do not support camps like these trying to force people to think a certain way.

You seem to have some sort of attraction towards speaking with me, and I must inform you that I don't have any such attraction towards other people.

I think he was saying any belief that homosexuality is "wrong" or "disagreeable", be it in your benign form or in the more radical form of these camps, is wrong.

[Ceannairceach]

I don't see why religion should come up in this argument. I am religious and I don't support these 'conversion camps'. I am sure there are some religions that do not have a problem with gay people, mostly Eastern religions*

*This is a guess based on what little bit of studying I have done on Eastern religions don't hold me to it though.

When these camps are lead by certain religious groups, largely, I fail to see how we cannot bring religion into the argument.

[Aazeronia]

I don't see why religion should come up in this argument. I am religious and I don't support these 'conversion camps'. I am sure there are some religions that do not have a problem with gay people, mostly Eastern religions*

*This is a guess based on what little bit of studying I have done on Eastern religions don't hold me to it though.

When these camps are lead by certain religious groups, largely, I fail to see how we cannot bring religion into the argument.

This is more a debate on the ethics of forcing people into these camps, and do the camps work in the first place. The fact that they are lead by people claiming religion as their means of 'treatment' is coincidental and not the point of this debate.

[Ceannairceach]

When these camps are lead by certain religious groups, largely, I fail to see how we cannot bring religion into the argument.

This is more a debate on the ethics of forcing people into these camps, and do the camps work in the first place. The fact that they are lead by people claiming religion as their means of 'treatment' is coincidental and not the point of this debate.

I disagree; The fact that these treatments are religiously motivated are important, as the religious motivation can often be used in the process to force the change from gay to straight.

[Grenartia]

Obviously for someone to want to go to an ex-gay conversion camp they want to change and I wholeheartedly support their efforts, just like people who are porn addicts or gambling addicts may try to some sort of rehab type place, you may think they are being silly and that they can't change but they want to change.

Addiction =/= homosexuality. Addiction is a disease, homosexuality is not. You can be cured of addiction, you cannot "cure" something like homosexuality because there is nothing to cure. I don't care if some idiot thins he can cure his gayness, as long as that is what he is choosing without coercion. I have a problem with forcing one's child into these brainwashing camps to be "helped".

Actually, as anybody in AA can tell you, you can't cure an addiction either.

But I'm not at all trying to diminish your argument.

The fact is that homosexuality isn't self-destructive, while addictions are.

1) stop typing 'lol', you're trivialising the situation far too much to not be slightly unsettling.

2) Explain, if the Bibles are the word of God, how a Christian can read Liviticus' passages as those which aren't the word of God?

The ones with all the stoning? gathering the village to stone people who cut their hair to death?

Good, someone brought this up! I type lol, because this situation is trivial, doesn't matter what you think or believe honestly, does not change facts lol.

But, back to where we were. Today's rules are mostly the same as they were before, the only difference being that they apply to the whole world. This requires us to change the way we act as Christians, less we violate the Bible. We have to respect individual choice and still do whats right, quite a sticky situation. A narrow path as it is more accurately described.

It isn't trivial at all. This is a matter of the rights, issues, concernts, etc. of an entire group of people (and in some cases, even a matter of life and death). Those are the facts. Are you implying the rights, concerns, issues, and lives of LGBT persons are trivial?

Sigh...

Are drug rehab centers places of pure evil because they want to change someone?

I will agree that no one should be forced to go, as treatment will be ineffective to a person not wanting to change just like if you dragged a heroin addict to rehab against their will to a rehabilitation centre any treatment they receive probably won't work. So first the person has to recognize the problem and want to change themselves then if they desire they could go to the ex-gay camp.

I believe there is a pretty big difference between a drug addict who needs to stop so they may continue to live, and a gay person whose sexuality does no harm to them or anyone else.

Exactly.

EDIT: Oh, yes, if anyone has any recent articles or anything that has any sort of evidence or argument against it being a choice, feel free to post. I do actually like reading into this subject more

Well, I don't have a link handy, but it has been shown that there is a difference in brain structure between gay men/straight women, and lesbians/straight men, with gay men and straight women having symmetrical brain hemispheres, while lesbians and straight men have a slightly enlarged right hemisphere.

Also, there's the fact that I can't think of any logical reason anybody would want to be LGBT.

Mainly because of the hate that we receive.

Probably a pamphlet and HBO's Oz.

For the gay to straight thing my sources are real-life people that I have known who were gay and decided to become straight.

For the straight to gay thing just prison horror stories I've heard, I never been raped or sent to prison so I wouldn't know, but an example would be one real life incident I know is where a man who was considered an excellent father, husband, and firemen was sent to prison for allegedly raping his niece, 10 years later DNA evidence showed that he wasn't the culprit so he was released but after his release he immediately divorced his wife and left his family for another man, he was also riddled with STDs and quite sickly compared to when he first arrived he was strong healthy and presumably straight. But just think about it you are trapped in an all male population, and treated like a woman and raped everyday for 10 years don't you think that would have a psychological effect on anyone?

There has been no observed cases of those gay-to-straight people maintaining their 'heterosexuality' permanently.

And actually, its been hypothesized that most people are actually bisexual, and just have extremely strong preferences one way or another.

Yes, they are bad. But they're bad because of the entire concept of attempting to change somebody. Once you begin to change the personality/thoughts/memories of somebody who has traits you consider to be undesirable, you instantly set down a slippery slope to where anybody and everybody can be acceptable to be changed.

I agree completely. What I disagree with is that this is, in and of itself, a bad thing.

Once you change people, free will goes out the window.

I don't see how that follows. Even if a despot gained possession of such a machine and started pushing soldiers through it to create a super loyal military or something, it's not like there's a person inside having their will stripped. Their will is as free as the moment they went in...it's just different.

Ah well, it's neither here nor there, really. The tech doesn't exist, and won't exist with people fearing it so much. Instead we'll just have camps that pretend to be able to do the same thing, while perpetrating real abuse on people in an attempt to suppress the undesired traits.

It is a bad thing because you're forcing people to get rid of traits that YOU consider undesirable. What makes YOU so special that YOU can judge what traits a person can and can't have?

[Aazeronia]

This is more a debate on the ethics of forcing people into these camps, and do the camps work in the first place. The fact that they are lead by people claiming religion as their means of 'treatment' is coincidental and not the point of this debate.

I disagree; The fact that these treatments are religiously motivated are important, as the religious motivation can often be used in the process to force the change from gay to straight.

I am just saying that you cannot use the over arching term 'religion' as a motive for these camps. There are some who are religious and don't support these camps, and some who are not religious but do support them. I don't see why religion should get the brunt of people's blame for these camps when religion is not a bad thing.

This is an ethical issue of should these camps be around based on the thinking a person can change or not, and individuals should not be forced into them regardless. So I disagree when you say religion is an essential part of this argument.

[Ceannairceach]

I disagree; The fact that these treatments are religiously motivated are important, as the religious motivation can often be used in the process to force the change from gay to straight.

I am just saying that you cannot use the over arching term 'religion' as a motive for these camps. There are some who are religious and don't support these camps, and some who are not religious but do support them. I don't see why religion should get the brunt of people's blame for these camps when religion is not a bad thing.

This is an ethical issue of should these camps be around based on the thinking a person can change or not, and individuals should not be forced into them regardless. So I disagree when you say religion is an essential part of this argument.

Whilst I disagree that religion is not a bad thing--it can be both, either or neither at varying degrees based on the religion--I do not mean to cast doubt on all religions--just those that support or endorse these camps.

[Aazeronia]

I am just saying that you cannot use the over arching term 'religion' as a motive for these camps. There are some who are religious and don't support these camps, and some who are not religious but do support them. I don't see why religion should get the brunt of people's blame for these camps when religion is not a bad thing.

This is an ethical issue of should these camps be around based on the thinking a person can change or not, and individuals should not be forced into them regardless. So I disagree when you say religion is an essential part of this argument.

Whilst I disagree that religion is not a bad thing--it can be both, either or neither at varying degrees based on the religion--I do not mean to cast doubt on all religions--just those that support or endorse these camps.

Well on that I would agree with you. I disagree with people who use religion to support these camps as well. And yes you are also right it saying that religion can both be a good and bad thing, all depends upon its usage.

[Nornalhorst]

Okay, so why are you painting religious people with such a wide brush?

All religious people? No; Just those that share views with those who support these conversion camps. If they decry them as idiotic and generally abusive, I doubt we'd have much to complain about.

As long as the people are going their on their own accord than I approve of Ex-gay conversion camps as it has helped some people, now if someone is forcing someone to go who doesn't want to that is another thing entirely.

[Ceannairceach]

All religious people? No; Just those that share views with those who support these conversion camps. If they decry them as idiotic and generally abusive, I doubt we'd have much to complain about.

As long as the people are going their on their own accord than I approve of Ex-gay conversion camps as it has helped some people, now if someone is forcing someone to go who doesn't want to that is another thing entirely.

Indeed.

[Aesthetica]

All religious people? No; Just those that share views with those who support these conversion camps. If they decry them as idiotic and generally abusive, I doubt we'd have much to complain about.

As long as the people are going their on their own accord than I approve of Ex-gay conversion camps as it has helped some people, now if someone is forcing someone to go who doesn't want to that is another thing entirely.

Nobody is "helped" by humiliation, brainwashing and torture.

Next you'll be saying that it was ok to lock teenage girls up without for life with forced labour, in Magdalene Laundries, because some old fool thought "they were in danger of sliding into sin".

[Ceannairceach]

As long as the people are going their on their own accord than I approve of Ex-gay conversion camps as it has helped some people, now if someone is forcing someone to go who doesn't want to that is another thing entirely.

Nobody is "helped" by humiliation, brainwashing and torture.

Next you'll be saying that it was ok to lock teenage girls up without for life with forced labour, in Magdalene Laundries, because some old fool thought "they were in danger of sliding into sin".

Hey, if its willing and consented to, I see no problem with it beyond "these people are denying who they are", which I cannot stop them from doing.

[Aesthetica]

Nobody is "helped" by humiliation, brainwashing and torture.

Next you'll be saying that it was ok to lock teenage girls up without for life with forced labour, in Magdalene Laundries, because some old fool thought "they were in danger of sliding into sin".

Hey, if its willing and consented to, I see no problem with it beyond "these people are denying who they are", which I cannot stop them from doing.

Were the victims asked if it was 'consensual' before or AFTER the brainwashing?

[Ceannairceach]

Hey, if its willing and consented to, I see no problem with it beyond "these people are denying who they are", which I cannot stop them from doing.

Were the victims asked if it was 'consensual' before or AFTER the brainwashing?

Which is a problem altogether different. Consent should be established before the "treatment".

[Nornalhorst]

Hey, if its willing and consented to, I see no problem with it beyond "these people are denying who they are", which I cannot stop them from doing.

Were the victims asked if it was 'consensual' before or AFTER the brainwashing?

Oh come off it, besides as long as they came there themselves which the vast majority do then I am okay with it, they want to change, they want to get rid of any homosexual feelings they have, they want to be the person they always wanted to be so instead of thinking of them as brainwashed you should want to help them and congratulate them when they succeed.

[Aesthetica]

Were the victims asked if it was 'consensual' before or AFTER the brainwashing?

Which is a problem altogether different. Consent should be established before the "treatment".

Personally, I'd rather just close these shitholes down, and throw the people running them in jail for 20 yrs for fraudulent medical practice.

This time, unlike the Magdalene Laundries, let's not look the other way for more than a century of human rights abuse, huh?

[Ceannairceach]

Were the victims asked if it was 'consensual' before or AFTER the brainwashing?

Oh come off it, besides as long as they came there themselves which the vast majority do then I am okay with it, they want to change, they want to get rid of any homosexual feelings they have, they want to be the person they always wanted to be so instead of thinking of them as brainwashed you should want to help them and congratulate them when they succeed.

I severely doubt that, at this point, a majority go to gay-conversion centers of their own free will. I'd like to see figures for that claim.

I'll also refuse to congratulate or help them for or with brainwashing themselves into a state of sexual repression, even if I'm fine with them doing it. I believe they shouldn't do that, as it is denying ones sexuality in favor of supporting an oppressive idea.

[Aesthetica]

Were the victims asked if it was 'consensual' before or AFTER the brainwashing?

Oh come off it, besides as long as they came there themselves which the vast majority do then I am okay with it, they want to change, they want to get rid of any homosexual feelings they have, they want to be the person they always wanted to be so instead of thinking of them as brainwashed you should want to help them and congratulate them when they succeed.

You can't "cure" being gay, it's not a disease, or a lifestyle choice, it's a fact of your birth.

The people running these camps are frauds practicing "snake oil" pseudo medicine, which is illegal. Throw them in jail and close the camps.

[Aazeronia]

Were the victims asked if it was 'consensual' before or AFTER the brainwashing?

Oh come off it, besides as long as they came there themselves which the vast majority do then I am okay with it, they want to change, they want to get rid of any homosexual feelings they have, they want to be the person they always wanted to be so instead of thinking of them as brainwashed you should want to help them and congratulate them when they succeed.

People never get rid of homosexual feelings through these camps. They repress it to fit in with a group in society. Its like people who go through rehab for alcohol are still alcoholics when they leave, the only difference is the urge to drink has been repressed by the mind but the thoughts are still there. Same principle applies to these camps and the so called "cure" they provide.

[Ceannairceach]

Which is a problem altogether different. Consent should be established before the "treatment".

Personally, I'd rather just close these shitholes down, and throw the people running them in jail for 20 yrs for fraudulent medical practice.

This time, unlike the Magdalene Laundries, let's not look the other way for more than a century of human rights abuse, huh?

I'd agree, the centers, as they are now, should be shut down and its forerunners tried or at least recognized as fraudulent. But if someone wants to seek some hypnosis, or some other form of "treatment" of their own free will in an effort to shut out their selves, I have no business stopping them.

[Desperate Measures]

Were the victims asked if it was 'consensual' before or AFTER the brainwashing?

Oh come off it, besides as long as they came there themselves which the vast majority do then I am okay with it, they want to change, they want to get rid of any homosexual feelings they have, they want to be the person they always wanted to be so instead of thinking of them as brainwashed you should want to help them and congratulate them when they succeed.

The choice becomes a bit more poisoned when it's a choice between being yourself or having your loved ones believe your soul will burn in hell for eternity for being who you are and you are dependent on those loved ones for food, shelter and clothing.

[Four-sided Triangles]

We should be encouraging kids to become gay and discouraging heterosexuality. They've got it completely backwards.

[Ceannairceach]

We should be encouraging kids to become gay and discouraging heterosexuality. They've got it completely backwards.

I'd say don't encourage either way.