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Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

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Barfobulville
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Barfobulville » Thu May 28, 2009 9:51 pm

Falsonia wrote:
Well, it's kind of the same as the Socratic method. Argument, when it's not merely a bunch of ad hominem attacks and insults the serve no purpose, leads to the betterment of all parties.


I guess stopping the ad hominem attacks and the insults is the hard part

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Verdigroth
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Verdigroth » Thu May 28, 2009 9:53 pm

No because we can't know the definitive answer until we are dead.
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Free Soviets
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Free Soviets » Thu May 28, 2009 9:54 pm

Vojvodina-Nihon wrote:what do you do when a Jehovah's Witness shows up at your door?

if i'm in an arguing mood, i argue. though sometimes i'll just ask them if they've moved on to their fourth armageddon yet. or politely tell them that i'm not interested in any vacuum cleaners and shut the door. depends.

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Charles Stefan
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Charles Stefan » Thu May 28, 2009 9:55 pm

Soyut wrote:Atheist have no right to impose their nonbeliefs on others. That's why I support teaching kids every theory of creation and them letting them decide. Its the only way to be fair to the children without imposing on them.

YES!
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Falsonia
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Falsonia » Thu May 28, 2009 9:57 pm

Charles Stefan wrote:
Soyut wrote:Atheist have no right to impose their nonbeliefs on others. That's why I support teaching kids every theory of creation and them letting them decide. Its the only way to be fair to the children without imposing on them.

YES!


I'll repeat my previous question. Mind, this is not only directed at you, but at Soyut as well.

Why do you consider the Christian version of creation, one that is not even shared by the entire religion, the only opposing "theory" to evolution that should be taught in schools?

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Milks Empire
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Milks Empire » Thu May 28, 2009 9:58 pm

Soyut wrote:Atheist have no right to impose their nonbeliefs on others. That's why I support teaching kids every theory of creation and them letting them decide. Its the only way to be fair to the children without imposing on them.

Not in science class. Save that for comparative religion class.

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Soyut
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Soyut » Thu May 28, 2009 9:59 pm

Milks Empire wrote:
Soyut wrote:Atheist have no right to impose their nonbeliefs on others. That's why I support teaching kids every theory of creation and them letting them decide. Its the only way to be fair to the children without imposing on them.

Not in science class. Save that for comparative religion class.


I think their should be a class about creation theories. That would allow for enough time to really be fair about this issue. Personally, I prefer the ancient Norse story that man came from the sweat of Odin's armpit.

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Falsonia
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Falsonia » Thu May 28, 2009 10:00 pm

Soyut wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:
Soyut wrote:Atheist have no right to impose their nonbeliefs on others. That's why I support teaching kids every theory of creation and them letting them decide. Its the only way to be fair to the children without imposing on them.

Not in science class. Save that for comparative religion class.


I think their should be a class about creation theories. That would allow for enough time to really be fair about this issue. Personally, I prefer the ancient Norse story that man came from the sweat of Odin's armpit.


Why not history class? Or literature? Why don't we study them in their true context, as a product of their time?

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Vojvodina-Nihon
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Vojvodina-Nihon » Thu May 28, 2009 10:00 pm

Soyut wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:
Soyut wrote:Atheist have no right to impose their nonbeliefs on others. That's why I support teaching kids every theory of creation and them letting them decide. Its the only way to be fair to the children without imposing on them.

Not in science class. Save that for comparative religion class.


I think their should be a class about creation theories. That would allow for enough time to really be fair about this issue. Personally, I prefer the ancient Norse story that man came from the sweat of Odin's armpit.

That would actually explain a lot.... like why we're mostly water.... and why people smell so bad (requiring deodorants and mouthwash and perfume and suchlike). I like it.

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Barfobulville
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Barfobulville » Thu May 28, 2009 10:01 pm

Falsonia wrote:
Why do you consider the Christian version of creation, one that is not even shared by the entire religion, the only opposing "theory" to evolution that should be taught in schools?


I think he may have been referring to the Christian variety in particular because it is usually the most vocal against evolution, and any usual objections to using the Bible as evidence would also apply to the Quran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, etc etc etc

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Northwest Slobovia
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Thu May 28, 2009 10:02 pm

Vojvodina-Nihon wrote:what do you do when a Jehovah's Witness shows up at your door?

I wish I could do what my aikido sensei does: tries to lead them down the eight-fold path to Zen Buddhist enlightenment. Apparently, this really confuses them.
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Falsonia
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Falsonia » Thu May 28, 2009 10:03 pm

Barfobulville wrote:
Falsonia wrote:
Why do you consider the Christian version of creation, one that is not even shared by the entire religion, the only opposing "theory" to evolution that should be taught in schools?


I think he may have been referring to the Christian variety in particular because it is usually the most vocal against evolution, and any usual objections to using the Bible as evidence would also apply to the Quran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, etc etc etc


But not the Bhagavad Gita. Why should only those with enough clout to throw a spanner in the school boards have a say?

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Milks Empire
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Milks Empire » Thu May 28, 2009 10:04 pm

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Vojvodina-Nihon wrote:what do you do when a Jehovah's Witness shows up at your door?

I wish I could do what my aikido sensei does: tries to lead them down the eight-fold path to Zen Buddhist enlightenment. Apparently, this really confuses them.

Before I found Catholicism, I was reading on Zen Buddhism for the purpose of conversion.

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Barfobulville
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Barfobulville » Thu May 28, 2009 10:04 pm

Falsonia wrote:
But not the Bhagavad Gita. Why should only those with enough clout to throw a spanner in the school boards have a say?


No offense, but I have never heard of that one, but I would have included it if I had any knowledge of its creation story

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Falsonia
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Falsonia » Thu May 28, 2009 10:07 pm

Barfobulville wrote:
Falsonia wrote:
But not the Bhagavad Gita. Why should only those with enough clout to throw a spanner in the school boards have a say?


No offense, but I have never heard of that one, but I would have included it if I had any knowledge of its creation story


None taken. My point was that the Quran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, et all, are Abrahamic works. They are inherently extremely similar. The Bhagavad Gita, on the other hand, is one of the most important scriptures in Hinduism, and hold almost no similarities to Abrahamic creation.

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Barfobulville
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Barfobulville » Thu May 28, 2009 10:10 pm

Falsonia wrote:
None taken. My point was that the Quran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, et all, are Abrahamic works. They are inherently extremely similar. The Bhagavad Gita, on the other hand, is one of the most important scriptures in Hinduism, and hold almost no similarities to Abrahamic creation.


I had neither the time nor the inclination to type out every religious text ever written, and simply typed the first 3 that came to mind. Coincidentally, they are indeed all Abrahamic. I hoped the "etc etc etc" would cover the rest for the sake of brevity.

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Milks Empire
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Milks Empire » Thu May 28, 2009 10:10 pm

Soyut wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:
Soyut wrote:Atheist have no right to impose their nonbeliefs on others. That's why I support teaching kids every theory of creation and them letting them decide. Its the only way to be fair to the children without imposing on them.

Not in science class. Save that for comparative religion class.

I think their should be a class about creation theories. That would allow for enough time to really be fair about this issue. Personally, I prefer the ancient Norse story that man came from the sweat of Odin's armpit.

Why stop at just creation stories? If we're gonna teach (not preach) about religion in school, we should go all the way. It might foster greater understanding between the faiths.

Falsonia wrote:Why not history class? Or literature? Why don't we study them in their true context, as a product of their time?

Not enough time during the school day/year to go really in-depth with that setup. Even a class devoted to nothing but comparative religion might not allow adequate time to explore the complexities involved, but it would come a lot closer than just having a segment in another class.

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Soyut
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Soyut » Thu May 28, 2009 10:11 pm

Falsonia wrote:Why not history class? Or literature? Why don't we study them in their true context, as a product of their time?


Why not P.E. or art classes that focus on religion. Imagine using interpretive dance to explain the Hindu Krishna, or you could have kids play freeze tag to simulate the battle of Jericho. The education possibilities are endless!

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Northwest Slobovia
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Northwest Slobovia » Thu May 28, 2009 10:12 pm

Milks Empire wrote:Before I found Catholicism, I was reading on Zen Buddhism for the purpose of conversion.

Huh! So, having studied Zen, why did you choose Catholicism? No sarcasm intended; I'm sincerely curious. Did Catholicism seem "better" or "purer" in some way? Or just "fit"?

I ask in part because one of my high school friends, who was for many years a non-practicing Christian, felt a "calling" and joined an ascetic monastic order.
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Saint Jade IV
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Saint Jade IV » Thu May 28, 2009 10:12 pm

Could you give an example of people imposing their viewpoint of atheism on others? Because, as far as I can see, religious people scream and shout about atheism being imposed on them anytime an atheist requests not to be subject to proselytising or theological laws or sanctions being imposed on them.

I've never seen an atheist try to impose on a religious person. I have seen atheists subject to abuse, threats of everlasting hellfire if they don't convert and constant requests to justify their viewpoint. When atheists ask the same of religious people (justification), it seems to evoke some Pavlovian response in them similar to the symptoms of a rabid dog - lots of frothing at the mouth and screaming, "I'm being oppressed by the EBIL ATHEISTS ZOMGS HELP!!!!111Shift+1!!!"
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Falsonia
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Falsonia » Thu May 28, 2009 10:13 pm

Barfobulville wrote:
Falsonia wrote:
None taken. My point was that the Quran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, et all, are Abrahamic works. They are inherently extremely similar. The Bhagavad Gita, on the other hand, is one of the most important scriptures in Hinduism, and hold almost no similarities to Abrahamic creation.


I had neither the time nor the inclination to type out every religious text ever written, and simply typed the first 3 that came to mind. Coincidentally, they are indeed all Abrahamic. I hoped the "etc etc etc" would cover the rest for the sake of brevity.


Oh wait, I misread your original post:
Barfobulville wrote:I think he may have been referring to the Christian variety in particular because it is usually the most vocal against evolution, and any usual objections to using the Bible as evidence would also apply to the Quran, the Torah, the Book of Mormon, etc etc etc


Quite sorry. Disregard everything I said to you after that, if you would.

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Soyut
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Soyut » Thu May 28, 2009 10:13 pm

Milks Empire wrote:Why stop at just creation stories? If we're gonna teach (not preach) about religion in school, we should go all the way. It might foster greater understanding between the faiths.


YES, I believe that through the intensive study of other religions, one is more inclined to choose atheism.

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Falsonia
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Falsonia » Thu May 28, 2009 10:16 pm

Saint Jade IV wrote:Could you give an example of people imposing their viewpoint of atheism on others? Because, as far as I can see, religious people scream and shout about atheism being imposed on them anytime an atheist requests not to be subject to proselytising or theological laws or sanctions being imposed on them.

I've never seen an atheist try to impose on a religious person. I have seen atheists subject to abuse, threats of everlasting hellfire if they don't convert and constant requests to justify their viewpoint. When atheists ask the same of religious people (justification), it seems to evoke some Pavlovian response in them similar to the symptoms of a rabid dog - lots of frothing at the mouth and screaming, "I'm being oppressed by the EBIL ATHEISTS ZOMGS HELP!!!!111Shift+1!!!"


I've been a proselytizing Atheist (I was young and stupid :unsure: ). Believe me, there are quite a few more.

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Saint Jade IV
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Saint Jade IV » Thu May 28, 2009 10:24 pm

Falsonia wrote:
Saint Jade IV wrote:Could you give an example of people imposing their viewpoint of atheism on others? Because, as far as I can see, religious people scream and shout about atheism being imposed on them anytime an atheist requests not to be subject to proselytising or theological laws or sanctions being imposed on them.

I've never seen an atheist try to impose on a religious person. I have seen atheists subject to abuse, threats of everlasting hellfire if they don't convert and constant requests to justify their viewpoint. When atheists ask the same of religious people (justification), it seems to evoke some Pavlovian response in them similar to the symptoms of a rabid dog - lots of frothing at the mouth and screaming, "I'm being oppressed by the EBIL ATHEISTS ZOMGS HELP!!!!111Shift+1!!!"


I've been a proselytizing Atheist (I was young and stupid :unsure: ). Believe me, there are quite a few more.


Ah, well, I've never really encountered that. I, being an agnostic, tend to be more well-versed in religion than my deeply religious friends. Especially the Catholic ones. It really frustrates me when they yell at me because I happen to express my views on the Catholic Church position on condom usage and abortion and such-like (they simply won't accept my criticising their church), and yet, they have sex outside marriage, use contraception, don't go to church, don't even own a rosary, but they're Catholic and I need to respect that apparently :blink: .

Edit: And yeah, I disagree with proselytising atheists as well.
Last edited by Saint Jade IV on Thu May 28, 2009 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When you grow up, your heart dies.
It's my estimation that every man ever got a statue made of him was one kind of son of a b*tch or another.
RIP Dyakovo...we are all poorer for your loss.

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Milks Empire
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Re: Question about discussing religious beliefs / lack thereof

Postby Milks Empire » Thu May 28, 2009 10:25 pm

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:Before I found Catholicism, I was reading on Zen Buddhism for the purpose of conversion.

Huh! So, having studied Zen, why did you choose Catholicism? No sarcasm intended; I'm sincerely curious. Did Catholicism seem "better" or "purer" in some way? Or just "fit"?
I ask in part because one of my high school friends, who was for many years a non-practicing Christian, felt a "calling" and joined an ascetic monastic order.

A. The nearest Buddhist organization to me that I know of is somewhere in the Catskills. That's at least 125 miles to the southeast of here, and that's as the crow flies. The winding roads between here and there probably increase it to 200 driven miles. The nearest Catholic church to me at the time was about a three-minute walk.
B. I wound up having to sit through Mass to get some advice from the priest about a personal issue involving a relationship formerly of a friendly nature that went sour. Something about it just felt right.

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