More Falklands Trouble

[Kulverint]

First of all, I'm Australian, not Argentine.

We can easily run our own affairs, thank you very much.

Oh, is that so? Well, excuse me.

Some chavs deciding to burn things =/= inability to run nation.

[Lambrinisia]

First of all, I'm Australian, not Argentine.

We can easily run our own affairs, thank you very much.

Oh, is that so? Well, excuse me.

Whilst yes, the riots weren't exactly the best moment for the UK, we still took control of it. It didn't last for very long and we're deciding on the best preventative and ways to combat future rioting.

As for the economy heading into recession, guess what, it's happening virtually anywhere. It's not the Government's fault that the banks acted the way they did.

British spending cuts, everywhere is doing spending cuts and tax rises because guess what, they're just as screwed as us.

As for the last one about the trouble because of David Cameron's veto, he has been praised for that by some members of parliament.

And about your sources, no media is ever truly impartial. And a blog is not a legitimate source.

[Risottia]

everyone but the British, Americans, and Germans? You guys suck at colonies. Seriously. France, Holland, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Japan, Chile, the list goes on. You all SUCK at colonies.

Ehm, actually the Trust Territory of Somalia got a lot better from 1949 to 1960... and got worse when the Italian trusteeship ended.

[Kandorith]

everyone but the British, Americans, and Germans? You guys suck at colonies. Seriously. France, Holland, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Japan, Chile, the list goes on. You all SUCK at colonies.

Ehm, actually the Trust Territory of Somalia got a lot better from 1949 to 1960... and got worse when the Italian trusteeship ended.

Not to mention the Dutch Indies were quite well run.... Britain and Japan messed that up, also explains why there's A LOT and I mean A LOT of Indonesian people living in The Netherlands, they fled before shit hit the fan.

[Leepaidamba]

Ehm, actually the Trust Territory of Somalia got a lot better from 1949 to 1960... and got worse when the Italian trusteeship ended.

Not to mention the Dutch Indies were quite well run.... Britain and Japan messed that up, also explains why there's A LOT and I mean A LOT of Indonesian people living in The Netherlands, they fled before shit hit the fan.

And over a third of the worldwide Surinamese population lives in the Netherlands.

Hey, I'm not saying they shouldn't ever have become independent but I'm not sure they should have become independent at the time. More importantly, I don't think the ABC-Islands should be ceded to Venezuela just because "they're closer to Venezuela and they were part of a predecessor state of Venezuela".

[The UK in Exile]

Not to mention the Dutch Indies were quite well run.... Britain and Japan messed that up, also explains why there's A LOT and I mean A LOT of Indonesian people living in The Netherlands, they fled before shit hit the fan.

And over a third of the worldwide Surinamese population lives in the Netherlands.

Hey, I'm not saying they shouldn't ever have become independent but I'm not sure they should have become independent at the time. More importantly, I don't think the ABC-Islands should be ceded to Venezuela just because "they're closer to Venezuela and they were part of a predecessor state of Venezuela".

its not like the dutch had a lot of choice.

[Leepaidamba]

And over a third of the worldwide Surinamese population lives in the Netherlands.

Hey, I'm not saying they shouldn't ever have become independent but I'm not sure they should have become independent at the time. More importantly, I don't think the ABC-Islands should be ceded to Venezuela just because "they're closer to Venezuela and they were part of a predecessor state of Venezuela".

its not like the dutch had a lot of choice.

Definitely not with Indonesia, maybe a little with Suriname. Things would have been better if the colonial era had ended earlier for the Netherlands and something like the Charter for the Kingdom was made around WWI. Of course, we weren't involved in WWI so we could put more resources into keeping our colonies.

[Volnotova]

Ok, why did britain gace up their colonial empire? it was a bad choice.

That has to be the most intelligent thing you've said so far...
Colonialism is better- or at least, British colonialism is- than the current post-colonial governments, if only because there's a non-corrupt, stable governance over the country; the whole area's protected by one of the best militaries in the world; and infrastructure is continually being built and improved. However, that said, everyone but the British, Americans, and Germans? You guys suck at colonies. Seriously. France, Holland, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Japan, Chile, the list goes on. You all SUCK at colonies.

Well, thank goodness I never participated in any form of colonialism as you just described.



But yea, Indochina was a failure, East-India was a failure, Congo was a failure, Philiphines was a failure, Libya and other Italian Colonies were better and I wouldn't call Korea a failure(I even am of such a controversial opinion that had North Korea never existed I would say the Japanese occupation of Korea was a good thing).

[Rio Cana]

Someone mention the British Commonwealth getting involved in the Malvinas/Falkland problem. You do know the vast majority of the British Commonwealth nations in the Americas voted to support Argentina.

Although I am not Argentine, I can see this as being a principle matter. As I stated earlier this move is one by Mercosur, not Argentina. It is a symbolic move against the waning dominance of the West over places like South America and serves to illustrate that they do not intend to allow themselves to be pushed around by former 'great' colonial, imperialistic powers. These nations, most particularly Brasil, are the major powers of the future and this is an example of them becoming aware of this.

You should avoid drilling for oil because obviously the image of grubby Western fingers soaking up the natural resources of what is believed by the Mercosur nations as belonging to South Americans is bound to cause a diplomatic rift. And let's be honest, the last the UK needs is more troubles on their hands, especially those dealing with external matters.

I just wish that the ego of the UK could take a back seat once in a while when dealing with issues regarding its overseas 'possessions'. The British belong in Britain, not off the coast of Argentina and I can guarantee you if the Argentines made claim to the Shetland Islands and bolstered it with military forces, air bases and naval vessels you would act in exactly the same way as they are now.

Time to let go.

(As for your "but they wanna be British" argument I believe it shares similarities with the Quebecois "we wanna be French" jazz.)

Again, some posters commenting on Gibraltar. Gibraltar was given to the UK. via treaty. Centuries later Spain affirmed that treaty. It was during Francos time that they said that treaty was forced on Spain. Nevertheless, the Spanish signed it. So I do not understand why they even wasted time with those referendums since the UK. does not have to give it back.

Malvinas/Falklands the Argentinians were forced out. No treaty ever signed. That was a big mistake for the UK. And Argentina really has a very good legal claim to those islands. The UK. position is weak.

One of there position is the islanders do not want to leave. Remember, around 50% of the people are the original islanders. The others are outsiders looking for there fortune. Which means if Argentina offered them One millon pounds most would take the money and go back home.

And in the posts you see many saying the UK. govt. supports the will of the Falklanders. That is a cop out. Just look at what happened to the Chago islanders, which few in the UK. seem to mention, who even had there pets wiped out so that they would leave. The Chago islanders have even won in UK. court but it seems the rule of law in the UK. can be circumvented since they are still not allowed to return home. Chago islands population was said to be 2000.

Watch this really informant video by Australian film maker John Pilge. Part 1 includes a segment which explains what happened to the Chago islanders pets.

Part 1 (9 min.) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLskCGCr ... re=related

Part 2 (9 min.) -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=pB9 ... =endscreen

Part 3 (10 min.) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_-Z3rHX ... re=related

Part 4 ( 12 min.) -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... wm16A&NR=1

[Cromarty]

Argentina really has a very good legal claim to those islands. The UK. position is weak.

And all credibility was lost... for ever.

Argentina's claim relies on two things, an assume inheritance from the Spanish colony governed from that great Argentine city of Montevideo.. wait, sorry, Uruguayan city.

And being close to the islands.

That's a weak ass claim, and the Argentines know it. That's why they rejected legally binding arbitration offers from Britain... 4 times.

[Avenio]

(As for your "but they wanna be British" argument I believe it shares similarities with the Quebecois "we wanna be French" jazz.)

It shares no similarities at all, really. The Québécois separatists want to be an independent nation, not rejoin France. Besides which, the Québécois were given the opportunity twice by referendum to pursue their sovereignty, and both times they voted to continue their then-current relationship with Canada.

In the case of the Argentinian settlers, it's much less clear. Prior to the early 1800s, there weren't any permanent settlements by anyone on the island, French, British, Argentinian or otherwise. The first settlement, founded by Luis Vernet, indeed, existed in a legal limbo for a number of years, as it was a largely-private enterprise which was agreed upon by both the British and the Argentinians. From what I can tell, the opinions of Vernet's colonists drifted towards the British after a series of internal murders broke down the leadership of the colony, while several Argentinian attempts to assert control failed (One by internal mutiny and one, a military garrison, was removed at the behest of London), and the British decided to incorporate a formal colony in the 1830s.

So, yeah. Really not a clear-cut case in the least. It's not as though we're granting freedom to a long-suffering group of indigenous inhabitants, it's a claim based upon a colonial king-of-the-hill game played out over 300 years.

[The Matthew Islands]

(As for your "but they wanna be British" argument I believe it shares similarities with the Quebecois "we wanna be French" jazz.)

hahahahaha

No. When the Quebecois have a referendum where the majority say they want to French or w/e then it might be similar.

Malvinas/Falklands the Argentinians were forced out. No treaty ever signed. That was a big mistake for the UK. And Argentina really has a very good legal claim to those islands. The UK. position is weak.

One of there position is the islanders do not want to leave. Remember, around 50% of the people are the original islanders.

And in the posts you see many saying the UK. govt. supports the will of the Falklanders. That is a cop out. Just look at what happened to the Chago islanders, which few in the UK. seem to mention, who even had there pets wiped out so that they would leave. The Chago islanders have even won in UK. court but it seems the rule of law in the UK. can be circumvented since they are still not allowed to return home. Chago islands population was said to be 2000.

I had to cut out the more gibberish sections of your post to try and focus on the fail.

Argentina doesn't have a good legal claim. Otherwise it would have tried pursuing international courts etc. like Britain suggested in the late 40's and 50's.

50% are the original inhabitants of what? What are you on about? About 70% of the Falklands population are British descended.

Also, I think you will find that 258 killed and 775 wounded British service personnel would attest to the commitment of Britain to the islands.

[Leepaidamba]

Someone mention the British Commonwealth getting involved in the Malvinas/Falkland problem. You do know the vast majority of the British Commonwealth nations in the Americas voted to support Argentina.

[citation needed]

Again, some posters commenting on Gibraltar. Gibraltar was given to the UK. via treaty. Centuries later Spain affirmed that treaty. It was during Francos time that they said that treaty was forced on Spain. Nevertheless, the Spanish signed it. So I do not understand why they even wasted time with those referendums since the UK. does not have to give it back.

Malvinas/Falklands the Argentinians were forced out. No treaty ever signed. That was a big mistake for the UK.

Big mistake for both IMO because it means there's no international legal basis for either claim. Neither can say "See this treaty? Ir says this piece of territory is ours and the legitimate claimant before the signing of this treaty signed it." unlike with Gibraltar where this is the case. Of course it's the "previous legitimate claimant that's the problem here because none is recognised by either side, let alone both.

And Argentina really has a very good legal claim to those islands. The UK. position is weak.

No legal document of international authority exists that states that the Falklands belong to anyone, so no de jure ownership argument can really be made. De facto ownership though...

One of there position is the islanders do not want to leave. Remember, around 50% of the people are the original islanders. The others are outsiders looking for there fortune. Which means if Argentina offered them One millon pounds most would take the money and go back home.

[citation needed] besides, that would be about a billion going to buying out half the Falklanders, what about the other half. Is it even moral to simply buy a population? Or are you suggesting something else?

That's why they rejected legally binding arbitration offers from Britain... 4 times.

I have tried to find it but I have yet to find any evidence of the UK offering arbitration. So to be fair [citation needed]

[Cromarty]

That's why they rejected legally binding arbitration offers from Britain... 4 times.

I have tried to find it but I have yet to find any evidence of the UK offering arbitration. So to be fair [citation needed]

5 minute search on wiki reveals at least two (will look for the others tomorrow when my laptop has moar power )

Shortly after the formation of the United Nations in 1945, Argentina asserted its right to sovereignty over the Falkland Islands. In 1947, the United Kingdom offered to submit the case to the International Court of Justice at The Hague, but Argentina refused the offer. A unilateral application by the United Kingdom in 1955 to the Court in respect of Argentine encroachment ended in deadlock when Argentina announced that it would not respect the decision of the court.

- Source

[Costa Fiero]

Someone mention the British Commonwealth getting involved in the Malvinas/Falkland problem. You do know the vast majority of the British Commonwealth nations in the Americas voted to support Argentina.

And which country would this be?

Again, some posters commenting on Gibraltar. Gibraltar was given to the UK. via treaty. Centuries later Spain affirmed that treaty. It was during Francos time that they said that treaty was forced on Spain. Nevertheless, the Spanish signed it. So I do not understand why they even wasted time with those referendums since the UK. does not have to give it back.

If the Spanish want to have Gibraltar back, then they should return Ceuta to the Moroccans. Fair's fair.

Watch this really informant video by Australian film maker John Pilge. Part 1 includes a segment which explains what happened to the Chago islanders pets.

Part 1 (9 min.) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLskCGCr ... re=related

Part 2 (9 min.) -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=pB9 ... =endscreen

Part 3 (10 min.) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_-Z3rHX ... re=related

Part 4 ( 12 min.) -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=en ... wm16A&NR=1

I recognise the name. John Pilger is a strong critic of Western nation's foreign policy and has expressed support for the likes of Hugo Chavez. He's an arrogant communist. I've seen his work and quite frankly, I don't blame the NZ journalist who interviewed him once for throwing his book at an image of him.

If I had my way, there'd be a cricket bat shoved right in the middle of his smug Australian mug.

[New Bazlantis]

It was expected from Argentina to behave like now cause it is a corrupt democracy, but not from the UK.

The UK is not being undemocratic in any way, shape or form. At all.

Oh really? Well its gotta be pretty easy to win referenda about whether the Islands should remain part of the UK when according the the constitution only those who support Britain are allowed to vote.

Mm, the smell of tainted democracy.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislativ ... #Elections

Also I must say that you guys are acting really childish over this matter. It's interesting how the UK feels the need to talk so tough with regards to the Falklands. Like a poor attempt to remind the world that you were once a big fish.

[Leepaidamba]

I have tried to find it but I have yet to find any evidence of the UK offering arbitration. So to be fair [citation needed]

5 minute search on wiki reveals at least two (will look for the others tomorrow when my laptop has moar power )

Shortly after the formation of the United Nations in 1945, Argentina asserted its right to sovereignty over the Falkland Islands. In 1947, the United Kingdom offered to submit the case to the International Court of Justice at The Hague, but Argentina refused the offer. A unilateral application by the United Kingdom in 1955 to the Court in respect of Argentine encroachment ended in deadlock when Argentina announced that it would not respect the decision of the court.

- Source

Thanks.

[Costa Fiero]

Oh really? Well its gotta be pretty easy to win referenda about whether the Islands should remain part of the UK when according the the constitution only those who support Britain are allowed to vote.

Mm, the smell of tainted democracy.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislativ ... #Elections

Also I must say that you guys are acting really childish over this matter. It's interesting how the UK feels the need to talk so tough with regards to the Falklands. Like a poor attempt to remind the world that you were once a big fish.

From your source:

The Legislative Assembly is elected through universal suffrage, which in reality means that a person can vote if they are eighteen years or over on the date of the election, are a British citizen, have Falkland Islands status and are a resident in the Falkland Islands on the date of the election.

Shock horror. You have to have citizenship to vote. That is so pro-British.

Oh yes. Very biased. Do us a favour and come back with an actual argument.

[Risottia]

The others are outsiders looking for there fortune. Which means if Argentina offered them One millon pounds most would take the money and go back home.

Perfect. Let's have Argentina fork over about 1,500 million pounds (Kelpers are about 3000). I wonder where Argentina is going to find that money in their coffers, but let's assume they have that much. What is left is 1500 Falklands natives who have all the right to self-determination and to live where they were born.
So, same situation as before, but Argentina with another debt crisis coming...

And in the posts you see many saying the UK. govt. supports the will of the Falklanders. That is a cop out. Just look at what happened to the Chago islanders,

Chago =/= Falklands.

Do you have anything meaningful on the thread's topic?

[The Bazlantian Diplomatic Authority]

Oh really? Well its gotta be pretty easy to win referenda about whether the Islands should remain part of the UK when according the the constitution only those who support Britain are allowed to vote.

Mm, the smell of tainted democracy.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislativ ... #Elections

Also I must say that you guys are acting really childish over this matter. It's interesting how the UK feels the need to talk so tough with regards to the Falklands. Like a poor attempt to remind the world that you were once a big fish.

From your source:

The Legislative Assembly is elected through universal suffrage, which in reality means that a person can vote if they are eighteen years or over on the date of the election, are a British citizen, have Falkland Islands status and are a resident in the Falkland Islands on the date of the election.

Shock horror. You have to have citizenship to vote. That is so pro-British.

Oh yes. Very biased. Do us a favour and come back with an actual argument.

"Someone can lose their right to vote if (..) they have any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience or adherence to a foreign Power or State" except the United Kingdom. Same source.

And how about you do us a favour and lose your f***ing attitude?

[Risottia]

"Someone can lose their right to vote if (..) they have any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience or adherence to a foreign Power or State" except the United Kingdom. Same source.

Guy: "I hereby declare myself as citizen and soldier of Risottia, bound to protect the interests of Risottia above any other country's!"
British gov't: "Then you're excused from your British citizenship, since you like Russia more than Britain"
Guy: "OMG YOU EVIL OPPRESSIVE BRITISH GUBMINT NEED TER "LOSS" YER FOCKIN ATTITUDE".

I fail to be impressed.

[The Bazlantian Diplomatic Authority]

"Someone can lose their right to vote if (..) they have any acknowledgement of allegiance, obedience or adherence to a foreign Power or State" except the United Kingdom. Same source.

Guy: "I hereby declare myself as citizen and soldier of Risottia, bound to protect the interests of Risottia above any other country's!"
British gov't: "Then you're excused from your British citizenship, since you like Russia more than Britain"
Guy: "OMG YOU EVIL OPPRESSIVE BRITISH GUBMINT NEED TER "LOSS" YER FOCKIN ATTITUDE".

I fail to be impressed.

What a surprise.

[Risottia]

Guy: "I hereby declare myself as citizen and soldier of Risottia, bound to protect the interests of Risottia above any other country's!"
British gov't: "Then you're excused from your British citizenship, since you like Russia more than Britain"
Guy: "OMG YOU EVIL OPPRESSIVE BRITISH GUBMINT NEED TER "LOSS" YER FOCKIN ATTITUDE".

I fail to be impressed.

What a surprise.

If you already knew the result, why did you post such a fallacious complaint?
To put it in other terms, if I decide to take a tour in Argentina, do I get voting rights? No. Those evil imperialists deny me the right to vote in the Argentinian elections even if I'm on Argentinian soil, just because I owe allegiance to another country! What a sick discriminating fockin attitude, they need to lose it.

[Coccygia]

Jesus, Argentina, just let it go already.

[The Bazlantian Diplomatic Authority]

What a surprise.

If you already knew the result, why did you post such a fallacious complaint?
To put it in other terms, if I decide to take a tour in Argentina, do I get voting rights? No. Those evil imperialists deny me the right to vote in the Argentinian elections even if I'm on Argentinian soil, just because I owe allegiance to another country! What a sick discriminating fockin attitude, they need to lose it.

It's not a surprise you disagree with me.

And that is not the issue in hand. If an Argentine were to live in the Falkland Islands they would not be granted the right to vote, regardless of how long they have lived there yet Brits are exempt from the rule. It's cultural discrimination.