why abortion is good.

[Libete]

That's like saying a human magically has a right to live. OBVIOUSLY they do.

Who gave them those rights?

Does it matter? I don't think so. The fact is that they have the right. And killing a baby/fetus is wrong, especially if it's just because you don't want to deal with one.

[Four-sided Triangles]

Ectopic pregnancy can potentially kill the mother and child.

No, both the fetus and mother WILL die, unless there's an abortion. Then only the fetus dies.

[Desperate Measures]

I've got 114,000+ in the United States (2009) alone. Tell your friends to get crackin'.
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/stat ... ng2009.pdf

Fix the Child protective Services. Make it easier for good parents to adopt. Then we wouldn't have so many kids up for adoption. And that still doesn't make killing them right.

You should put as much energy into taking care of what we already have. The rest of us will keep the population numbers down and gain freedoms for women to conduct their lives how they choose. That way we'll all be busy and come away with some impressive results.

[Libete]

That's like saying a human magically has a right to live. OBVIOUSLY they do.

Well, he IS sort of right....

It's not magic.

It was for the sake of the argument, er... debate. I don't think it's magic. I was using the term "magic" very loosely. More for emphasis than anything.

[Norstal]

Who gave them those rights?

Does it matter? I don't think so.

I can tell you're not going to be a successful lawyer or congressman. In fact, please stay out of any lawmaking processes.

The fact is that they have the right. And killing a baby/fetus is wrong, especially if it's just because you don't want to deal with one.

The rights are unfounded if it has no foundation.

[Mavorpen]

I've got 114,000+ in the United States (2009) alone. Tell your friends to get crackin'.
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/stat ... ng2009.pdf

Fix the Child protective Services. Make it easier for good parents to adopt. Then we wouldn't have so many kids up for adoption. And that still doesn't make killing them right.

Lol? The adoption rate would still be horrible. Not only this, but adoptions often don't work out for the adopting family anyway. You want to put children through suffering, destroy the life of a doctor and possibly a mother, just because you feel like you should control the body of said mother?

[Four-sided Triangles]

Does it matter? I don't think so. The fact is that they have the right. And killing a baby/fetus is wrong, especially if it's just because you don't want to deal with one.

Rights do not apply to beings without any self-awareness. Give me one good reason to give rights to a fetus and not give rights to a gorilla. The cognitive capacity and self-awareness of a gorilla is much, much higher. Without resorting to irrational prejudice toward your own species, explain why a fetus should have rights but not a gorilla. If you agree that a gorilla should have rights, then the same logic would eventually end up with you agreeing that cows should have rights too, for cows STILL have more cognitive capacity than a fetus.

Now, unless you're a vegetarian, you have absolutely no basis on which to be opposed to abortion.

[Desperate Measures]

I'm posting this: because my daughter wanted to see "the kissing suns". This will make her happy and it seems oddly fitting that she wanted them in this thread. Her mom had an abortion before we met and then we had her when we were ready. We're able to give her a happy life rather than a life simply for life's sake.

[Ninjopolis]

1. It's a homo sapiens, so it is a human being. If any other human being has rights, so should an unborn child.
2. There's no reason to kill it. There are perfectly viable options to abortion that should be used as substitutes to allow the child to live.

1. It's a homo sapiens, therefore it's a person? No, that's speciest and just plain metaphysically unfounded. It is not self-aware. It is not capable of valuing its own existence. It does not get rights. Rights only belong to beings with enough cognitive capacity for those rights to make sense.

2. You don't know what an ectopic pregnancy is, do you? The pregnancy is guaranteed to fail and result in a dead fetus. Without an abortion, an ectopic pregnancy will also kill the mother.

1. So until it's capable of reasoning, it's not a person? So a 3 year old isn't a person either, since it has no ability to reason?

2. Depending on the circumstance, there are medical solutions for many of the problems that would have previously been seen as ectopic pregnancy. There's usually no way to guarantee the child will die, and there are cases where the chance of survival was slim and the child survived. And in most cases, unless the doctors screw up, the mother will not die unless she had a different problem that causes complications. That's a much more complicated situation, but I'd argue that the doctors should try to save the mother and child rather than just say "oh, looks tough. let's kill the baby."

[Maniaca]

Kill the poor and all who would carry on their legacy of squalor

[Norstal]

1. So until it's capable of reasoning, it's not a person? So a 3 year old isn't a person either, since it has no ability to reason?

What makes you think only homo sapiens can reason? What makes you think fetuses can reason? What evidence do you have? What makes you think a fetus is equal to a 3 year old?

[Xirius]

I would go further - madatory sterilization for everyone below the poverty line and everyone who ever commits a crime. Given that they could still prove valuable, also genetic samples should be taken to clone them if their genetic makeup actually proves useful.

[Ninjopolis]

Fix the Child protective Services. Make it easier for good parents to adopt. Then we wouldn't have so many kids up for adoption. And that still doesn't make killing them right.

Lol? The adoption rate would still be horrible. Not only this, but adoptions often don't work out for the adopting family anyway. You want to put children through suffering, destroy the life of a doctor and possibly a mother, just because you feel like you should control the body of said mother?

Nobody's pro life because they want to control women. They want to protect the lives of the innocent children that are being slaughtered in the name of irresponsibility and the misplaced notion of personal liberty.

[Four-sided Triangles]

1. So until it's capable of reasoning, it's not a person?

No. Until it has self-awareness and is able to value its existence, it's not a person.

So a 3 year old isn't a person either, since it has no ability to reason?

3 year old children have a degree of self-awareness.

2. Depending on the circumstance, there are medical solutions for many of the problems that would have previously been seen as ectopic pregnancy. There's usually no way to guarantee the child will die, and there are cases where the chance of survival was slim and the child survived. And in most cases, unless the doctors screw up, the mother will not die unless she had a different problem that causes complications. That's a much more complicated situation, but I'd argue that the doctors should try to save the mother and child rather than just say "oh, looks tough. let's kill the baby."

In other words, put the mother at great risk for a procedure that will almost certainly fail just to have an extremely low probability at saving something with less neural capacity than a dairy cow? Yeah, how about no.

[Ninjopolis]

1. So until it's capable of reasoning, it's not a person? So a 3 year old isn't a person either, since it has no ability to reason?

What makes you think only homo sapiens can reason? What makes you think fetuses can reason? What evidence do you have?

I never said fetuses could reason. Regardless of whether it can reason, it is still a living human being. There are circumstances in life where people lose the ability to reason0 does that make people in a coma or with disabilities less of a person?

[Ashmoria]

Who gave them those rights?

Does it matter? I don't think so. The fact is that they have the right. And killing a baby/fetus is wrong, especially if it's just because you don't want to deal with one.

no its not wrong to kill an embryo. its not wrong to kill a fetus that would result in a handicapped child its not wrong to decide that you are unwilling or unable to bring another child into the world.

[Desperate Measures]

Lol? The adoption rate would still be horrible. Not only this, but adoptions often don't work out for the adopting family anyway. You want to put children through suffering, destroy the life of a doctor and possibly a mother, just because you feel like you should control the body of said mother?

Nobody's pro life because they want to control women. They want to protect the lives of the innocent children that are being slaughtered in the name of irresponsibility and the misplaced notion of personal liberty.

The effect is the same. And I never slaughter irresponsibly.

[Ninjopolis]

Does it matter? I don't think so. The fact is that they have the right. And killing a baby/fetus is wrong, especially if it's just because you don't want to deal with one.

no its not wrong to kill an embryo. its not wrong to kill a fetus that would result in a handicapped child its not wrong to decide that you are unwilling or unable to bring another child into the world.

It's wrong. There's other options to abortion. And handicapped children are people too. If you're not willing to have a child, or to keep one, don't have sex.

[Norstal]

What makes you think only homo sapiens can reason? What makes you think fetuses can reason? What evidence do you have?

I never said fetuses could reason.

Thus not a person.

Regardless of whether it can reason, it is still a living human being.

Yeah, they're human cells. So? It's not a person.

There are circumstances in life where people lose the ability to reason0 does that make people in a coma or with disabilities less of a person?

What the fuck?

A person in a coma doesn't lose their ability to reason. A person with a mental handicap doesn't lose their ability to reason (hence they're HANDICAPPED, you know, impaired and not totally have no capability to reason). Now if a person is brain dead, that would be up to the family or the will of the person.

[Ninjopolis]

Nobody's pro life because they want to control women. They want to protect the lives of the innocent children that are being slaughtered in the name of irresponsibility and the misplaced notion of personal liberty.

The effect is the same. And I never slaughter irresponsibly.

The effect is that the baby lives... The intention is totally different. They're not thinking "women don't deserve rights, let's subjugate them." Abortion is the epitome of irresponsibility.

[Norstal]

It's wrong. There's other options to abortion. And handicapped children are people too. If you're not willing to have a child, or to keep one, don't have sex.

There other options than posting on an online forum too.

[Desperate Measures]

no its not wrong to kill an embryo. its not wrong to kill a fetus that would result in a handicapped child its not wrong to decide that you are unwilling or unable to bring another child into the world.

It's wrong. There's other options to abortion. And handicapped children are people too. If you're not willing to have a child, or to keep one, don't have sex.

It's right.

[Desperate Measures]

The effect is the same. And I never slaughter irresponsibly.

The effect is that the baby lives... The intention is totally different. They're not thinking "women don't deserve rights, let's subjugate them." Abortion is the epitome of irresponsibility.

The baby lives in a situation where it is not wanted, the woman goes through a traumatic experience where every other aspect of her life is pushed to the sidelines. Having a baby when the parent is not prepared is the epitome of irresponsibility.

[Four-sided Triangles]

I never said fetuses could reason. Regardless of whether it can reason, it is still a living human being. There are circumstances in life where people lose the ability to reason0 does that make people in a coma or with disabilities less of a person?

Is a human in a persistent vegetative state with less cognitive capacity than a gerbil less of a person? Yes, obviously.

See, this is your problem. You want all humans to be treated special (except pregnant women, of course), but you don't want ANY rights for animals. There are animals far more intelligent than many people in comas. If you're opposed to euthanizing cortically dead people in comas, then you must also oppose eating meat. Otherwise, you're just engaging in special pleading. Humans get magical special treatment for no other reason than simply being human.

[Ninjopolis]

The effect is that the baby lives... The intention is totally different. They're not thinking "women don't deserve rights, let's subjugate them." Abortion is the epitome of irresponsibility.

The baby lives in a situation where it is not wanted, the woman goes through a traumatic experience where every other aspect of her life is pushed to the sidelines. Having a baby when the parent is not prepared is the epitome of irresponsibility.

The baby could be put up for adoption and brought into a family where it will be loved and cared for. Once the baby is born, theres a lot that can be done for it. The personal irresponsibility of the parents should not dictate whether the baby lives or dies. And once the mother realizes she's pregnant, she has several months for preparation.