NATION

PASSWORD

India and Russia fail to extend nuclear project.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Caninope
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24620
Founded: Nov 26, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Caninope » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:52 am

EnragedMaldivians wrote:
Caninope wrote:Decentralization (and the disorganization that occurs afterwards) is almost always a major factor in the loss of an empire.


Actually, I think it was the initial centralization of the Empire that made it weak; the Mughals used their gunpowder advantage to gain a power monopoly over the sub continent, and following that there was really no pressure on them to improve upon their weaponry or tactics.

Whereas the Europeans underwent a series of military revolutions of sorts following the sixteenth century, because the continent had so many different centres of power; starting with the improvements made in Italian fortifications as a result of the Valois invasions (see: Trace Italianne) , spreading to the North - which resulted in an increase in the overall size of European armies, as more men were needed to both man these forts, and overcome them.

More importantly, they also had to improve upon their gunpowder and artillery to keep gaining an edge over their competitors; with flintlock guns replacing matchlock guns, the designing of ships capable of firing longe range broadsides (the main reason the Turks lost at Lepanto in 1571, and why the Portuguese came to briefly dominate the Indian Ocean) - and a concomitant change in tacticts and unit composition to utilize these reforms effectively.

Whereas Eastern Gunpowder Empires like the Ottomans, Mughals and the Ming weren't subject to that kind of 'Darwinian process', and their Military Technology remained rather stagnant in comparison.

That Darwinist process you talk about comes from more than just military. There was a complete change in European thinking at the time, spurred on by the arrival of Byzantines from Constantinople, and (before that) the infusion of Arabic knowledge.

Decentralization is always a negative when you've got invaders.
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
Winner, Silver Medal for Debating
Co-Winner, Bronze Medal for Posting
Co-Winner, Zooke Goodwill Award

Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

User avatar
Malgrave
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5719
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Malgrave » Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:53 am

Indian-Russian relations won't suffer. If you see RT's positive coverage on the treaty you can see this.
Frenequesta wrote:Well-dressed mad scientists with an edge.

United Kingdom of Malgrave (1910-)
Population: 331 million
GDP Per Capita: 42,000 dollars
Join the Leftist Cooperation and Security Pact

User avatar
Ethel mermania
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 126499
Founded: Aug 20, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Ethel mermania » Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:23 pm

Caninope wrote:
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:We have the long and happy relationship of utterly despising each other.

Let's be fair here: you're all newcomers to this. The Chinese and the Soviets only really got around to it in the 60's, and you guys only started to hate some other than the British after your independence. Before that, India was just a bunch of states (and a weak Mughal Empire).



The indians and the chinese have had issues a long time before british and communists were on the scene.
The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 



http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilont ... ilizations

User avatar
Shofercia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31339
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sat Dec 17, 2011 1:39 pm

Nightkill the Emperor wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-16212204

For safety concerns, Manmohan Singh and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev ultimately did not sign a deal extending a joint nuclear plant project.

I'm rather disappointed, as advances in nuclear technology and closer relations with close friend Russia could be beneficial for India. But I can somewhat understand their concerns.

We did get 42 fighter jets, so that's nice.

What does NSG think? Should Manmohan Singh and Medvedev have signed the bill, and what could this mean for Russia-India relations?


Considering the Russo-Indian relations, and that the project was temporarily shelved for other reasons, primarily technical, I don't think it damages Russo-Indian relations at all. In terms of military stuff, I'm a bit surprised you guys aren't buying more Iskander-E Missiles. Granted, it's not the famed Iskander the Great, but still - damn good missile.*

*Google Iskander the Great, missile, and weep if you're a Georgian tanker in Gori, in August ;)



Bosiu wrote:Considering that India is once again being the bitch that all world powers want to have now, I suppose this could advance American-Indian and Sino-Indian relations at the cost of Ruso-Indian relations.


America can stop funding Pakistan, and China needs to stop vetoing India's SCO membership for either of these two relationships to progress beyond where they already are.


The Republique Dardania and Gazmania wrote:
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:We have reasons.


Don’t worry, with those 1000 Russian T-90's you guys have -I wouldn’t worry about China rolling into your back-door any time soon :lol:


A ton of tanks would be pointless for the potential type of war that India and China might fight. That's why I suggested Iskander-E Missiles.


Mike the Progressive wrote:Bomb the Russians like a boss!


Screw bombs, be like Nixon and threaten to nuke! /sarcasm

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB195/index.htm


Ethel mermania wrote:
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Why do you feel it'll advance USA-India and Sino-Indian relations? Why do you feel it'll cost us Russo-Indian relations?

Also, this will not help Sino-Indian relations. We really fucking hate China.


I do not think it will hurt russian - indian relations, the indians are buying a whole passel of very expensive jet fighters.

i wonder what it is going to do to russian -- chinese relations.


Not much. Russia and China are adults, and allow each other to conduct their own foreign policy. They're not the ones going "bawww, the French won't come to our Iraq party!"


Conserative Morality wrote:
Keronians wrote:Well, America clearly didn't when it chose which side it wanted to go with within the Indian subcontinent. :p

We've changed our minds. :p


And you're still funding Pakistan. Guess where part of that money goes? Spying on India.
Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
Stonk Power! (North) Kosovo is (a de facto part of) Serbia and Crimea is (a de facto part of) Russia
I used pronouns until the mods made using wrong pronouns warnable, so I use names instead; if you see malice there, that's entirely on you, and if pronouns are no longer warnable, I'll go back to using them

User avatar
New Conglomerate
Minister
 
Posts: 3467
Founded: Oct 27, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby New Conglomerate » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:13 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Conserative Morality wrote:We've changed our minds. :p


And you're still funding Pakistan. Guess where part of that money goes? Spying on India.

IIRC, all foreign aid to Pakistan has been cancelled by congress.
Current WA Delegate of The NationStates Community.

User avatar
Shofercia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31339
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:39 pm

New Conglomerate wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
And you're still funding Pakistan. Guess where part of that money goes? Spying on India.

IIRC, all foreign aid to Pakistan has been cancelled by congress.


When did this happen? This week in IRL, (Sun-today) was really hectic for me, so I had to hermitize myself. It happened this week, didn't it?

*Googles*

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-573 ... istan-aid/

December 13, 2011 8:19 AM

In a reflection of the uneasy relationship between the United States and Pakistan, Congress agreed on a defense bill that includes a provision to freeze some $700 million in assistance until Pakistan comes up with a strategy to deal with improvised explosive devices.


Damn, I hermitize myself for a week, and US cuts off aid to Pakistan.

So, did I miss anything else? Bombings, mass-shooting, or something positive, like improvements in the economy?
Last edited by Shofercia on Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
Stonk Power! (North) Kosovo is (a de facto part of) Serbia and Crimea is (a de facto part of) Russia
I used pronouns until the mods made using wrong pronouns warnable, so I use names instead; if you see malice there, that's entirely on you, and if pronouns are no longer warnable, I'll go back to using them

User avatar
Hyrandom
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 3
Founded: Nov 26, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Hyrandom » Sat Dec 17, 2011 2:49 pm

Hyrandom wrote:It would be nice if India, Pakistan, China, and Russia all allied

I was only saying its nice...there are continental unions for basically every continent except Asia. If these guys all joined, they would dominate the world with combined might in military and economy (i want that).
They all are leaders in Asia and have some connection together
India and Russia-obviously close friends
China and Russia- they used to be
India and China- they top the charts in economy and population (and the people are genius (most of the time))--they could either be rivals or team up
India and Pakistan- used to be the same country, so only difference is that and maybe religion; this would take longer
yeah i know this is all weak and impossible nationalistic fantasy

User avatar
Caninope
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24620
Founded: Nov 26, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Caninope » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Shofercia wrote:Damn, I hermitize myself for a week, and US cuts off aid to Pakistan.

So, did I miss anything else? Bombings, mass-shooting, or something positive, like improvements in the economy?

Canada banned the burqa in citizenship oaths, a revised version of the National Defense Authorization Act passed, Russia seized some radioactive material en route to Iran, and a few other things.
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
Winner, Silver Medal for Debating
Co-Winner, Bronze Medal for Posting
Co-Winner, Zooke Goodwill Award

Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

User avatar
Costa Fiero
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5247
Founded: Nov 24, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Costa Fiero » Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:51 pm

Shofercia wrote:So, did I miss anything else? Bombings, mass-shooting, or something positive, like improvements in the economy?


You did. Russia actually did something decent for once and came up with a UN resolution for the situation in Syria.

I also haven't figured out why Russia doesn't simply licence over the missile to India to produce themselves. After all, there's plenty of Russian weapons that were built in India under licence.

User avatar
Nightkill the Emperor
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 88776
Founded: Dec 28, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Nightkill the Emperor » Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:00 pm

Hyrandom wrote:
Hyrandom wrote:It would be nice if India, Pakistan, China, and Russia all allied

I was only saying its nice...there are continental unions for basically every continent except Asia. If these guys all joined, they would dominate the world with combined might in military and economy (i want that).
They all are leaders in Asia and have some connection together
India and Russia-obviously close friends
China and Russia- they used to be
India and China- they top the charts in economy and population (and the people are genius (most of the time))--they could either be rivals or team up
India and Pakistan- used to be the same country, so only difference is that and maybe religion; this would take longer
yeah i know this is all weak and impossible nationalistic fantasy

I'm glad you see it will never happen.
Hi! I'm Khan, your local misanthropic Indian.
I wear teal, blue & pink for Swith.
P2TM RP Discussion Thread
If you want a good rp, read this shit.
Tiami is cool.
Nat: Night's always in some bizarre state somewhere between "intoxicated enough to kill a hair metal lead singer" and "annoying Mormon missionary sober".

Swith: It's because you're so awesome. God himself refreshes the screen before he types just to see if Nightkill has written anything while he was off somewhere else.

Monfrox wrote:
The balkens wrote:
# went there....

It's Nightkill. He's been there so long he rents out rooms to other people at a flat rate, but demands cash up front.

User avatar
Keronians
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18231
Founded: Oct 15, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Keronians » Sat Dec 17, 2011 5:39 pm

Call to power wrote:
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:We did get 42 fighter jets, so that's nice.


So you don't need all that aid Britain gives to your impoverished people?

Mike the Progressive wrote:Right, because their economy wouldn't tank if ours did. :roll:


Well Chinas largest export market is the EU and we are very much in the mood for having our anus worn out by the rich kid, dammit he's ours Uncle Sam!


1) No.

2) Yeah, the current European crisis is having bad effects on China as well.
Proud Indian. Spanish citizen. European federalist.
Political compass
Awarded the Bronze Medal for General Debating at the 11th Annual Posters' Awards. Awarded Best New Poster at the 11th Annual Posters' Awards.
It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning.
George Orwell
· Private property
· Free foreign trade
· Exchange of goods and services
· Free formation of prices

· Market regulation
· Social security
· Universal healthcare
· Unemployment insurance

This is a capitalist model.

User avatar
Shofercia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31339
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:46 am

Caninope wrote:
Shofercia wrote:Damn, I hermitize myself for a week, and US cuts off aid to Pakistan.

So, did I miss anything else? Bombings, mass-shooting, or something positive, like improvements in the economy?

Canada banned the burqa in citizenship oaths, a revised version of the National Defense Authorization Act passed, Russia seized some radioactive material en route to Iran, and a few other things.


Thank you for the summary :D

So Canada's playing Lil' Nationalist, civil rights are further curtailed despite Obama's promises, and Russian Airport upgrades actually work!


Costa Fiero wrote:
Shofercia wrote:So, did I miss anything else? Bombings, mass-shooting, or something positive, like improvements in the economy?


You did. Russia actually did something decent for once and came up with a UN resolution for the situation in Syria.

I also haven't figured out why Russia doesn't simply licence over the missile to India to produce themselves. After all, there's plenty of Russian weapons that were built in India under licence.


Russian production of rockets is one of the most efficient in the World, plus you get Russian workforce up, which helps the economy, and you need the basic elements to be properly assembled. I'm not saying that India can't do it, they can, but this way Russia's workforce gets less unemployment, and the economy is a really huge factor in Russian elections. I'm sure that if there's an actual war, and India desperately needs the Iskander E, Russia will give India the production license.

But a lot of money was spent on R&D, so Russia might as well get some of it back via sales.
Last edited by Shofercia on Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
Stonk Power! (North) Kosovo is (a de facto part of) Serbia and Crimea is (a de facto part of) Russia
I used pronouns until the mods made using wrong pronouns warnable, so I use names instead; if you see malice there, that's entirely on you, and if pronouns are no longer warnable, I'll go back to using them

User avatar
Minnysota
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6395
Founded: Mar 21, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Minnysota » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:05 am

Keronians wrote:
Soviet Russia Republic wrote:Relations with India are deep enough that this wont affect it at all.


Agreed.

I mean, they arranged for more defence ties, purchase of more fighter jets, and Russia promised to back India's bid for a permanent seat on the UNSC.


I want the US to back this too. Can China veto it? Cause I say we just remove China from the SC altogether.
Minnysota - Unjustly Deleted

User avatar
Keronians
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18231
Founded: Oct 15, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Keronians » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:17 am

Minnysota wrote:
Keronians wrote:
Agreed.

I mean, they arranged for more defence ties, purchase of more fighter jets, and Russia promised to back India's bid for a permanent seat on the UNSC.


I want the US to back this too. Can China veto it? Cause I say we just remove China from the SC altogether.


China will probably veto.

So the US can afford to vote in favour.

Just like how it was speculated that France and the UK would vote in favour of Palestine's bid because they knew that the US would veto.
Proud Indian. Spanish citizen. European federalist.
Political compass
Awarded the Bronze Medal for General Debating at the 11th Annual Posters' Awards. Awarded Best New Poster at the 11th Annual Posters' Awards.
It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it; consequently, the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning.
George Orwell
· Private property
· Free foreign trade
· Exchange of goods and services
· Free formation of prices

· Market regulation
· Social security
· Universal healthcare
· Unemployment insurance

This is a capitalist model.

User avatar
Minnysota
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6395
Founded: Mar 21, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Minnysota » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:19 am

Keronians wrote:
Minnysota wrote:
I want the US to back this too. Can China veto it? Cause I say we just remove China from the SC altogether.


China will probably veto.

So the US can afford to vote in favour.

Just like how it was speculated that France and the UK would vote in favour of Palestine's bid because they knew that the US would veto.


Wait, a nation can veto but that can be overruled? The UN confuses me...
Minnysota - Unjustly Deleted

User avatar
Caninope
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24620
Founded: Nov 26, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Caninope » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:27 am

Shofercia wrote:
Caninope wrote:Canada banned the burqa in citizenship oaths, a revised version of the National Defense Authorization Act passed, Russia seized some radioactive material en route to Iran, and a few other things.


Thank you for the summary :D

So Canada's playing Lil' Nationalist, civil rights are further curtailed despite Obama's promises, and Russian Airport upgrades actually work!

On the note of the NDAA: language was changed so that the detention of American citizens or legal aliens to prevented (when considered with other laws and directives). If you want a good break down of the bill, I do recommend TCT's legal summary found here.
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
Winner, Silver Medal for Debating
Co-Winner, Bronze Medal for Posting
Co-Winner, Zooke Goodwill Award

Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

User avatar
Caninope
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24620
Founded: Nov 26, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Caninope » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:28 am

Minnysota wrote:
Keronians wrote:
Agreed.

I mean, they arranged for more defence ties, purchase of more fighter jets, and Russia promised to back India's bid for a permanent seat on the UNSC.


I want the US to back this too. Can China veto it? Cause I say we just remove China from the SC altogether.

I'm pretty sure the US has made something known about wanting India to be on the UNSC.
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
Winner, Silver Medal for Debating
Co-Winner, Bronze Medal for Posting
Co-Winner, Zooke Goodwill Award

Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

User avatar
Caninope
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24620
Founded: Nov 26, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Caninope » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:28 am

Minnysota wrote:
Keronians wrote:
China will probably veto.

So the US can afford to vote in favour.

Just like how it was speculated that France and the UK would vote in favour of Palestine's bid because they knew that the US would veto.


Wait, a nation can veto but that can be overruled? The UN confuses me...

No. That's why we can afford to vote in favor.
I'm the Pope
Secretly CIA interns stomping out negative views of the US
Türkçe öğreniyorum ama zorluk var.
Winner, Silver Medal for Debating
Co-Winner, Bronze Medal for Posting
Co-Winner, Zooke Goodwill Award

Agritum wrote:Arg, Caninope is Captain America under disguise. Everyone knows it.
Frisivisia wrote:
Me wrote:Just don't. It'll get you a whole lot further in life if you come to realize you're not the smartest guy in the room, even if you probably are.

Because Caninope may be in that room with you.
Nightkill the Emperor wrote:Thankfully, we have you and EM to guide us to wisdom and truth, holy one. :p
Norstal wrote:What I am saying of course is that we should clone Caninope.

User avatar
EnragedMaldivians
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8450
Founded: Feb 01, 2010
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby EnragedMaldivians » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:36 am

If it weren't for that idiot Nehru, India would already have a Permenant seat on the security council, and as someone who looks forward to an Indian hegemony in South Asia, I would greatly appreciate it if it did.

China doesn't really have much to lose by letting them in anyhow; not to my knowledge.
Taking a break.

Previous

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: -Astoria-, Aerlanica, Costa Fierro, El Lazaro, Emotional Support Crocodile, EuroStralia, Great Yue, Isvonia, Kenmoria, Marslandi, New haven america, Pasong Tirad, Terminus Station, United Sigma Armada, Upper Ireland

Advertisement

Remove ads