Nativity Scene Controversy in Central Texas

[Hittanryan]

Well then call out the police and get those damn crucifix-wearin' bastards out of our public schools. After all, that's excessive entanglement, they're trying to spread their message of hate and violence in a public forum of learning and reason!
Go catch those miserable homeless people who use the sidewalks to panhandle for change and sometimes have "God bless" written on their signs. They're using public property, so it should have to be stopped!
Stop those stupid religious folk from spreading their LIES in public parks, after all their use of public ground for religious purposes is excessive entanglement!

I hope you realize how utterly ridiculous that argument is

How about a little fire, scarecrow?

Until there is a Supreme Court case on the matter:
No, actually they aren't. As government approval of a private organization erecting a religious display on public land is not the government becoming "excessively entangled" in religion, I doubt they could be ruled in violation of anything for allowing the nativity scene to go up.
They could be in trouble if they didn't hang up the banner the atheists requested to have hung up. I don't know if they actually hung it up or not though

Actually, there have been several Supreme Court cases on the subject of nativity scenes on public property. ACLU vs. Scarsdale established the so-called "reindeer rule," which states that nativity scenes on public property are only acceptable if accompanied by more secular Christmas symbols. I can't speak to the minutiae of the current Texas fight, but I would think it's irrelevant who put up the display: it's still on public property.

[Dyakovo]

Yes. That strawman is ridiculous.

Then so is this case.
Government allowing religious message on public ground - check
Government not limiting that public ground to sole use by one religion - Maybe check.

Fixed

I'm not sure if they hung the banner up or not, so they could be violating this one.

They haven't, so they are.

[Flameswroth]

So I just saw a copy of the banner the atheist group wants to have up alongside the nativity...and I have to say it's incredibly lackluster. The color scheme takes a stab at looking festive, but it's a far cry from actually being pleasing to look at. The nativity, it's meaning notwithstanding, is at least an arrangement of sculpture (plastic or otherwise), backlit for night-time with some artistic flair to it.

I'm not sure what they could do to something as plain as a banner to make it better...maybe put Santa and Jesus sharing egg nog at the North Pole or something...but as it is i wouldn't want to put that eyesore up either, if only because it's really not an attractive sign at all and sucks the fun out of the display.

[Aethelstania]

As a Christian IM in two minds about this. As I would like to see Christmas decorations go up people celebrating Christmas and the like. However I really don't agree with evangelicalism and I think the state should be secular. So yea I think if its offending people or whatever it should come down , I just happen to think that's a shame ... plus on a kinda related note even though I don't like relegios zealots I don't understand evangelical aethiests I mean what really is the point.

[Dyakovo]

What did grammar ever do to you?

As a Christian IM in two minds about this. As I would like to see Christmas decorations go up people celebrating Christmas and the like. However I really don't agree with evangelicalism and I think the state should be secular. So yea I think if its offending people or whatever it should come down , I just happen to think that's a shame ... plus on a kinda related note even though I don't like relegios zealots I don't understand evangelical aethiests I mean what really is the point.

What is an aethiest?

[Glorious Freedonia]

False.

In the US: July 4th & Veterans' Day. Just to quote two.

And Presidents Day, Martin Luther King Jr's birthday, Labor Day, Halloween, Thanksgiving, and New Years...

Thanksgiving is religioius and national.

[Maxen von Bismarck]

Well then call out the police and get those damn crucifix-wearin' bastards out of our public schools. After all, that's excessive entanglement, they're trying to spread their message of hate and violence in a public forum of learning and reason!
Go catch those miserable homeless people who use the sidewalks to panhandle for change and sometimes have "God bless" written on their signs. They're using public property, so it should have to be stopped!
Stop those stupid religious folk from spreading their LIES in public parks, after all their use of public ground for religious purposes is excessive entanglement!

I hope you realize how utterly ridiculous that argument is

Yes. That strawman is ridiculous.

Until you said that, I thought you were just trolling atheists.



Unless, of course, you are and in that case you just broke NSG's annual irony contest.

[Ceannairceach]

And Presidents Day, Martin Luther King Jr's birthday, Labor Day, Halloween, Thanksgiving, and New Years...

Thanksgiving is religioius and national.

How so? I've never considered it religious before.

[Maxen von Bismarck]

Thanksgiving is religioius and national.

How so? I've never considered it religious before.

If it helps, I happen to have a copy of the first proclamation RE: Thanksgiving. You can judge for yourself it there are any religious overtones.

"The Holy God having by a long and Continual Series of his Afflictive dispensations in and by the present Warr with the Heathen Natives of this land, written and brought to pass bitter things against his own Covenant people in this wilderness, yet so that we evidently discern that in the midst of his judgements he hath remembered mercy, having remembered his Footstool in the day of his sore displeasure against us for our sins, with many singular Intimations of his Fatherly Compassion, and regard; reserving many of our Towns from Desolation Threatened, and attempted by the Enemy, and giving us especially of late with many of our Confederates many signal Advantages against them, without such Disadvantage to ourselves as formerly we have been sensible of, if it be the Lord's mercy that we are not consumed, It certainly bespeaks our positive Thankfulness, when our Enemies are in any measure disappointed or destroyed; and fearing the Lord should take notice under so many Intimations of his returning mercy, we should be found an Insensible people, as not standing before Him with Thanksgiving, as well as lading him with our Complaints in the time of pressing Afflictions: The Council has thought meet to appoint and set apart the 29th day of this instant June, as a day of Solemn Thanksgiving and praise to God for such his Goodness and Favour, many Particulars of which mercy might be Instanced, but we doubt not those who are sensible of God's Afflictions, have been as diligent to espy him returning to us; and that the Lord may behold us as a People offering Praise and thereby glorifying Him; the Council doth commend it to the Respective Ministers, Elders and people of this Jurisdiction; Solemnly and seriously to keep the same Beseeching that being persuaded by the mercies of God we may all, even this whole people offer up our bodies and souls as a living and acceptable Service unto God by Jesus Christ."

http://www.socastee.com/politics/histor ... giving.pdf

[Ceannairceach]

How so? I've never considered it religious before.

If it helps, I happen to have a copy of the first proclamation RE: Thanksgiving. You can judge for yourself it there are any religious overtones.

"The Holy God having by a long and Continual Series of his Afflictive dispensations in and by the present Warr with the Heathen Natives of this land, written and brought to pass bitter things against his own Covenant people in this wilderness, yet so that we evidently discern that in the midst of his judgements he hath remembered mercy, having remembered his Footstool in the day of his sore displeasure against us for our sins, with many singular Intimations of his Fatherly Compassion, and regard; reserving many of our Towns from Desolation Threatened, and attempted by the Enemy, and giving us especially of late with many of our Confederates many signal Advantages against them, without such Disadvantage to ourselves as formerly we have been sensible of, if it be the Lord's mercy that we are not consumed, It certainly bespeaks our positive Thankfulness, when our Enemies are in any measure disappointed or destroyed; and fearing the Lord should take notice under so many Intimations of his returning mercy, we should be found an Insensible people, as not standing before Him with Thanksgiving, as well as lading him with our Complaints in the time of pressing Afflictions: The Council has thought meet to appoint and set apart the 29th day of this instant June, as a day of Solemn Thanksgiving and praise to God for such his Goodness and Favour, many Particulars of which mercy might be Instanced, but we doubt not those who are sensible of God's Afflictions, have been as diligent to espy him returning to us; and that the Lord may behold us as a People offering Praise and thereby glorifying Him; the Council doth commend it to the Respective Ministers, Elders and people of this Jurisdiction; Solemnly and seriously to keep the same Beseeching that being persuaded by the mercies of God we may all, even this whole people offer up our bodies and souls as a living and acceptable Service unto God by Jesus Christ."

http://www.socastee.com/politics/histor ... giving.pdf

Yeah, OK. I see it. May I ask the year it was printed?

[Maxen von Bismarck]

If it helps, I happen to have a copy of the first proclamation RE: Thanksgiving. You can judge for yourself it there are any religious overtones.

"The Holy God having by a long and Continual Series of his Afflictive dispensations in and by the present Warr with the Heathen Natives of this land, written and brought to pass bitter things against his own Covenant people in this wilderness, yet so that we evidently discern that in the midst of his judgements he hath remembered mercy, having remembered his Footstool in the day of his sore displeasure against us for our sins, with many singular Intimations of his Fatherly Compassion, and regard; reserving many of our Towns from Desolation Threatened, and attempted by the Enemy, and giving us especially of late with many of our Confederates many signal Advantages against them, without such Disadvantage to ourselves as formerly we have been sensible of, if it be the Lord's mercy that we are not consumed, It certainly bespeaks our positive Thankfulness, when our Enemies are in any measure disappointed or destroyed; and fearing the Lord should take notice under so many Intimations of his returning mercy, we should be found an Insensible people, as not standing before Him with Thanksgiving, as well as lading him with our Complaints in the time of pressing Afflictions: The Council has thought meet to appoint and set apart the 29th day of this instant June, as a day of Solemn Thanksgiving and praise to God for such his Goodness and Favour, many Particulars of which mercy might be Instanced, but we doubt not those who are sensible of God's Afflictions, have been as diligent to espy him returning to us; and that the Lord may behold us as a People offering Praise and thereby glorifying Him; the Council doth commend it to the Respective Ministers, Elders and people of this Jurisdiction; Solemnly and seriously to keep the same Beseeching that being persuaded by the mercies of God we may all, even this whole people offer up our bodies and souls as a living and acceptable Service unto God by Jesus Christ."

http://www.socastee.com/politics/histor ... giving.pdf

Yeah, OK. I see it. May I ask the year it was printed?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. The year the proclamation was printed? I believe it was delivered orally.

Also, a nice linky I found with more recent Thanksgiving proclamations from Washington on down: http://www.pilgrimhall.org/ThanxProc1789.htm

Again, you can judge for yourself if there is a religious tone to them.

[Ceannairceach]

Yeah, OK. I see it. May I ask the year it was printed?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. The year the proclamation was printed? I believe it was delivered orally.

Also, a nice linky I found with more recent Thanksgiving proclamations from Washington on down: http://www.pilgrimhall.org/ThanxProc1789.htm

Again, you can judge for yourself if there is a religious tone to them.

Bah, I meant delivered. Thank you either way.

[Maurepas]

I don't have a problem with Nativity Scenes, but I do have a problem with them being on Courthouse lawns.

They are a symbol of Christianity and a Court is forbidden from endorsing religion of any kind.

[Crystalcliff Point]

How about this: Some private citizen offers to allow the nativity scene erected on their private property? Then everyone's happy!

[Desperate Measures]

How about this: Some private citizen offers to allow the nativity scene erected on their private property? Then everyone's happy!

Yep.

[The Flood]

Never said it was an atheist symbol. I was trying to say that a Religiously neutral symbol should be satisfying to Atheists.

Why should it, if the Christians get their pro-Christian symbol?

Because the pro Christian symbol doesn't say 'atheists suck!' on it like the atheist 'symbol' does.

[Kobeanare]

Well, its still stupid.The local inhabitans want it there, and it is undemocratical to deny their right to do so.

Democracy isn't exactly just "whatever the majority wants".

Of course it is. Which is why the US isn't a democracy.

[Kobeanare]

Why should it, if the Christians get their pro-Christian symbol?

Because the pro Christian symbol doesn't say 'atheists suck!' on it like the atheist 'symbol' does.

Even if it actually did, so what?

[Maxen von Bismarck]

How about this: Some private citizen offers to allow the nativity scene erected on their private property? Then everyone's happy!

Yep.

Like an atheist could ever be happy.

[Crystalcliff Point]

Like an atheist could ever be happy.

I'm pretty happy right now. Got my Metroid Fusion, and a warm cup of delicious tea. I guess a more accurate word would be content

Mind not discriminating against atheists in the future? Thanks.

My solution, the best working one. Can you think of a better, constitutional one?

[Farnhamia]

Why should it, if the Christians get their pro-Christian symbol?

Because the pro Christian symbol doesn't say 'atheists suck!' on it like the atheist 'symbol' does.

It's implied. It's been implied ever since the Roman Empire took over Christianity, or vice versa. I never could tell.

[Maxen von Bismarck]

Like an atheist could ever be happy.

I'm pretty happy right now. Got my Metroid Fusion, and a warm cup of delicious tea. I guess a more accurate word would be content

Mind not discriminating against atheists in the future? Thanks.

My solution, the best working one. Can you think of a better, constitutional one?

Pfft, if you think that's discrimination I think you need to stop being so 'content' and start 'living.'

I say the town puts up a sign that says "Happy Holidays."

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/g ... &invol=668

"The concept of a "wall" of separation between church and state is a useful metaphor but is not an accurate description of the practical aspects of the relationship that in fact exists."

[Desperate Measures]

Yep.

Like an atheist could ever be happy.

Proven untrue. You made me laugh... though I'm not really an atheist. I'm agnostic. Or ignostic. Or agnostic atheist. Or maybe a weak atheist. Or something.

[Farnhamia]

Like an atheist could ever be happy.

Proven untrue. You made me laugh... though I'm not really an atheist. I'm agnostic. Or ignostic. Or agnostic atheist. Or maybe a weak atheist. Or something.

Make up your mind!!!!!

[Desperate Measures]

Proven untrue. You made me laugh... though I'm not really an atheist. I'm agnostic. Or ignostic. Or agnostic atheist. Or maybe a weak atheist. Or something.

Make up your mind!!!!!

Not in this life.