Nativity Scene Controversy in Central Texas

[Risottia]

I dont care if people want to start displaying their religions, go for it. Just none of those stupid cults, you know the ones I mean..

Christianity, I guess:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cult
2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents

Why do you call Christianity "stupid"? Stop trolling, please.

[Desperate Measures]

With all this talk of government being TOO BIG, why would a religion want the government meddling in their affairs, anyway?

[West Failure]

So should all government declared national holidays in the US be non-religious ones? Isn't there a seperation of church and state issue?

[Desperate Measures]

So should all government declared national holidays in the US be non-religious ones? Isn't there a seperation of church and state issue?

"Constitutionally, there are no "national holidays" in the United States because Congress only has authority to create holidays for federal institutions (including federally owned properties) and employees, and for the District of Columbia. Instead, there are federal holidays, state holidays, city holidays, and so on." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_ho ... ted_States

[United Provinces of Aslanda]

I'm Christian. I believe in God. If you don't, thats fine. Free will. Doesn't make you less of a man or woman. I'm not the best Christian, I have my faults, but I try. I'm getting tired of all this 'Holiday' crap. I respect all religions, and I believe in equal rights, but 'Holiday' trees? Really? This country was built a Christian nation, on Christian values. And I know you've probably heard that a billion times, but its the truth. You don't have to worship the same God, or even believe in God. Its your choice. I'm just saying, why are they taking from my religion and trying to act like they know whats best? Ben Stein said, "It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away."

[Ifreann]

I'm Christian. I believe in God. If you don't, thats fine. Free will. Doesn't make you less of a man or woman. I'm not the best Christian, I have my faults, but I try. I'm getting tired of all this 'Holiday' crap. I respect all religions, and I believe in equal rights, but 'Holiday' trees? Really?

Yes. Really. You see, there is more than one holiday that occurs at the end of December, and it should be patently obvious that businesses in capitalist America don't want to alienate customers if they can avoid it. Thus, non-denominational Holiday Trees.

This country was built a Christian nation, on Christian values. And I know you've probably heard that a billion times, but its the truth.

It's really not.

You don't have to worship the same God, or even believe in God. Its your choice. I'm just saying, why are they taking from my religion and trying to act like they know whats best?

What is being taken away from Christianity is the special privilege it has over other religions, which it shouldn't have. You have a problem with your religion being treated the same as every other religion? Deal with it, equality before the law is an American principle.

Ben Stein said, "It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away."

And I should care what Ben Stein says because....?

[Desperate Measures]

I'm Christian. I believe in God. If you don't, thats fine. Free will. Doesn't make you less of a man or woman. I'm not the best Christian, I have my faults, but I try. I'm getting tired of all this 'Holiday' crap. I respect all religions, and I believe in equal rights, but 'Holiday' trees? Really? This country was built a Christian nation, on Christian values. And I know you've probably heard that a billion times, but its the truth. You don't have to worship the same God, or even believe in God. Its your choice. I'm just saying, why are they taking from my religion and trying to act like they know whats best? Ben Stein said, "It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away."

That's all fine. Don't let government get in on the act.

And when you say that the US was built as a Christian nation, are you talking about these guys?

"The Plymouth Pilgrims put their loathing for the day into practice in 1620 when they spent their first Christmas Day in the New World building their first structure in the New World – thus demonstrating their complete contempt for the day.[4]

A year later on December 25, 1621, Governor William Bradford led a work detail into the forest and discovered some recent arrivals among the crew had scruples about working on the day.[1][3] Bradford noted in his history of the colony, Of Plymouth Plantation:

"On the day called Christmas Day, the Governor called [the settlers] out to work as was usual. However, the most of this new company excused themselves and said it went against their consciences to work on that day. So the Governor told them that if they made it [a] matter of conscience, he would spare them till they were better informed; so he led away the rest and left them."[5]

When the Governor and his crew returned home at noon they discovered those left behind playing stool-ball, pitching the bar, and pursuing other sports.[4] Bradford confiscated their implements, reprimanded them, forbade any further reveling in the streets, and told them their devotion for the day should be confined to their homes.[1]

Massachusetts and Connecticut followed the Plymouth colony in refusing to condone any observance of the day.[1] When the Puritans came to power in England following the execution of King Charles I, Parliament enacted a law in 1647 abolishing the observance of Christmas, Easter, and Whitsuntide.[1][4] The Puritans of New England then passed a series of laws making any observance of Christmas illegal.[6] A Massachusetts law of 1659 punished offenders with a hefty five shilling fine.[4][6]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_ ... ew_England

[West Failure]

So should all government declared national holidays in the US be non-religious ones? Isn't there a seperation of church and state issue?

"Constitutionally, there are no "national holidays" in the United States because Congress only has authority to create holidays for federal institutions (including federally owned properties) and employees, and for the District of Columbia. Instead, there are federal holidays, state holidays, city holidays, and so on." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_ho ... ted_States

Interesting, thanks.

[Flameswroth]

Wow, so now confirmation that all it would take are some wreaths on the courthouse doors, lights around the trim and a Santa being pulled by eight tiny reindeer (nine if you add Talos...erm, Rudolph. Curse you Skyrim!) and everything would be honky dory.

Why the fuck haven't they done this? It's easy as all get out, contributes to the appeal of the courthouse grounds, I mean...whyyyyyy?!

Because the only point of the display is to emphasize that Christians, and only Christians, own the courthouse and the law.

Normally I'd say that that thought was paranoid. Jumps to conspiracy of religious supremacy, Christian or otherwise, always strike me as such. But when the answer is so painfully easy and not detrimental to the message at all, and they won't do it...it's just so dang hard to believe the intent is benign.

Hell, if I lived there I'd do it for them! Free of charge - give me a ladder and a staple gun/roof cliffs and I'll put the lights up myself! I might even buy the wreaths for the front door.

[Sunny Marionette]

From what I can see, it's on someone's private property so it's their business.

[Hittanryan]

I'm Christian. I believe in God. If you don't, thats fine. Free will. Doesn't make you less of a man or woman. I'm not the best Christian, I have my faults, but I try. I'm getting tired of all this 'Holiday' crap. I respect all religions, and I believe in equal rights, but 'Holiday' trees? Really?

Nothing is forcing businesses to call them holiday trees except the risk of alienating non-Christian customers and employees. If you actually respected other religions, you would understand this.

This country was built a Christian nation, on Christian values. And I know you've probably heard that a billion times, but its the truth.

That argument was wrong the first billion times we heard it. The Founding Fathers, both the Deists and the devout Christians of the group, believed ardently in separation of church and state. Even back then, the US had a diverse range of religions, and the Founding Fathers wanted to guarantee all of them had the freedom to worship however they pleased. Furthermore, they were products of the Enlightenment, and believed in a government of laws, not men. That meant the actions of the government should be determined by reason, not divine providence.

You don't have to worship the same God, or even believe in God. Its your choice. I'm just saying, why are they taking from my religion and trying to act like they know whats best?

They're not taking away from anything. As a private citizen you can put up as many nativity scenes as you want on private property. The issue here is that the government must remain neutral as dictated by the First Amendment. That means displays of religion on public property are unconstitutional.

[Ifreann]

From what I can see, it's on someone's private property so it's their business.

The town square outside the courthouse sure doesn't sound like private property.

[Dyakovo]

So should all government declared national holidays in the US be non-religious ones? Isn't there a seperation of church and state issue?

I would support this.

[Dyakovo]

I'm Christian. I believe in God. If you don't, thats fine. Free will. Doesn't make you less of a man or woman. I'm not the best Christian, I have my faults, but I try. I'm getting tired of all this 'Holiday' crap. I respect all religions, and I believe in equal rights, but 'Holiday' trees? Really? This country was built a Christian nation, on Christian values. And I know you've probably heard that a billion times, but its the truth still a lie that I, as a christian, like to perpetuate. You don't have to worship the same God, or even believe in God. Its your choice. I'm just saying, why are they taking from my religion and trying to act like they know whats best? Ben Stein said, "It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away."

Fixed that for you.

[Dyakovo]

From what I can see, it's on someone's private property so it's their business.

The courthouse is not "someone's private property".

[The Godly Nations]

We have Christmas trees everywhere, no one would think that that is a promotion of Heathen values. It is just an image, it does not promote any specific religion over another, it just says 'We, the judges of this court, are Christian, and we have this here Nativity Scene to show the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, Trolololol'. We can either ignore it, and let the whole thing die down and celebrate this day, regardless of religion, and all symbols associated with this day, religious or not in nature, or we can go through another year of pointless debating and feed into these fundamentalist's persecution complex and encourage them to do the exact same fucking thing next year.

"They're just trolling" is a terrible, terrible reason to let people continue to violate the constitution.

They aren't violating the Constitution, they just want heckles over some statuettes. Are you any less free to practise your religion, am I any less free? If we feed into them, they will create another bullshit spectacle where they play the martyr over actively baiting other Religions. A statue does not promote or endorse a religion, it just says, "We 'ere judges are Christ-shuns." It states, it doesn't promote or endorse. It is a blatant attempt at baiting people of different religion, but, as far as I see it, it is nothing worth disrupting our end of the year quietude for. Once they cross the line, and actually act upon their bigotry, then we can send them packing with their figurines, and give them something to play with as they look for another job.

[The Godly Nations]

it just says 'We, the judges of this court, are Christian, and we have this here Nativity Scene to show the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ, Trolololol'. .

And why should they do it on public premises with public money?

Our government wastes money all the time, I am sure we can simply ignore them putting up a a two dollar portrait of some dead Jewish Family living in the Middle East some 2000 years ago.

[Dyakovo]

"They're just trolling" is a terrible, terrible reason to let people continue to violate the constitution.

They aren't violating the Constitution, they just want heckles over some statuettes. Are you any less free to practise your religion, am I any less free? If we feed into them, they will create another bullshit spectacle where they play the martyr over actively baiting other Religions. A statue does not promote or endorse a religion, it just says, "We 'ere judges are Christ-shuns." It states, it doesn't promote or endorse. It is a blatant attempt at baiting people of different religion, but, as far as I see it, it is nothing worth disrupting our end of the year quietude for. Once they cross the line, and actually act upon their bigotry, then we can send them packing with their figurines, and give them something to play with as they look for another job.

Yes, actually they are.

[The Godly Nations]

They aren't violating the Constitution, they just want heckles over some statuettes. Are you any less free to practise your religion, am I any less free? If we feed into them, they will create another bullshit spectacle where they play the martyr over actively baiting other Religions. A statue does not promote or endorse a religion, it just says, "We 'ere judges are Christ-shuns." It states, it doesn't promote or endorse. It is a blatant attempt at baiting people of different religion, but, as far as I see it, it is nothing worth disrupting our end of the year quietude for. Once they cross the line, and actually act upon their bigotry, then we can send them packing with their figurines, and give them something to play with as they look for another job.

Yes, actually they are.

As several people already said, this doesn't really constitute excessive entanglement in religion. We aren't any less free to practice our religion, are we?

[Dyakovo]

Yes, actually they are.

As several people already said, this doesn't really constitute excessive entanglement in religion. We aren't any less free to practice our religion, are we?

Those several people are wrong. Any entanglement in religion is excessive.

[Occupied Deutschland]

They aren't violating the Constitution, they just want heckles over some statuettes. Are you any less free to practise your religion, am I any less free? If we feed into them, they will create another bullshit spectacle where they play the martyr over actively baiting other Religions. A statue does not promote or endorse a religion, it just says, "We 'ere judges are Christ-shuns." It states, it doesn't promote or endorse. It is a blatant attempt at baiting people of different religion, but, as far as I see it, it is nothing worth disrupting our end of the year quietude for. Once they cross the line, and actually act upon their bigotry, then we can send them packing with their figurines, and give them something to play with as they look for another job.

Yes, actually they are.

Until there is a Supreme Court case on the matter:
No, actually they aren't. As government approval of a private organization erecting a religious display on public land is not the government becoming "excessively entangled" in religion, I doubt they could be ruled in violation of anything for allowing the nativity scene to go up.
They could be in trouble if they didn't hang up the banner the atheists requested to have hung up. I don't know if they actually hung it up or not though

[Dyakovo]

Yes, actually they are.

Until there is a Supreme Court case on the matter.

There already have been cases on this. It is unconstitutional. Their method of making it legal is really fucking simple too.

[Occupied Deutschland]

As several people already said, this doesn't really constitute excessive entanglement in religion. We aren't any less free to practice our religion, are we?

Those several people are wrong. Any entanglement in religion is excessive.

Well then call out the police and get those damn crucifix-wearin' bastards out of our public schools. After all, that's excessive entanglement, they're trying to spread their message of hate and violence in a public forum of learning and reason!
Go catch those miserable homeless people who use the sidewalks to panhandle for change and sometimes have "God bless" written on their signs. They're using public property, so it should have to be stopped!
Stop those stupid religious folk from spreading their LIES in public parks, after all their use of public ground for religious purposes is excessive entanglement!

I hope you realize how utterly ridiculous that argument is

[Dyakovo]

Those several people are wrong. Any entanglement in religion is excessive.

Well then call out the police and get those damn crucifix-wearin' bastards out of our public schools. After all, that's excessive entanglement, they're trying to spread their message of hate and violence in a public forum of learning and reason!
Go catch those miserable homeless people who use the sidewalks to panhandle for change and sometimes have "God bless" written on their signs. They're using public property, so it should have to be stopped!
Stop those stupid religious folk from spreading their LIES in public parks, after all their use of public ground for religious purposes is excessive entanglement!

I hope you realize how utterly ridiculous that argument is

Yes. That strawman is ridiculous.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Well then call out the police and get those damn crucifix-wearin' bastards out of our public schools. After all, that's excessive entanglement, they're trying to spread their message of hate and violence in a public forum of learning and reason!
Go catch those miserable homeless people who use the sidewalks to panhandle for change and sometimes have "God bless" written on their signs. They're using public property, so it should have to be stopped!
Stop those stupid religious folk from spreading their LIES in public parks, after all their use of public ground for religious purposes is excessive entanglement!

I hope you realize how utterly ridiculous that argument is

Yes. That strawman is ridiculous.

Then so is this case.
Government allowing religious message on public ground - check
Government not limiting that public ground to sole use by one religion - Maybe check. I'm not sure if they hung the banner up or not, so they could be violating this one.