Nativity Scene Controversy in Central Texas

[The Camden City State]

Relevant Links:
Texas Town Braces for Battle With Atheists Over Nativity Scene
Texas Town Braces for Battle

A few questions popped to mind while reading the article, and I'm interested in getting some opinions on the matter (while also bracing for people criticizing me for starting a flame war). One of the big questions that popped up was whether or not the Nativity Scene should be brought down from the courthouse lawn. On the one hand, it is very much a religious symbol, and the American system is designed to give everyone a voice, so you could argue "represent all or represent none" in the displays a public facility exhibits. On the other hand, Nativity Scenes are representations of the main reason for the creation of the holiday to begin with (a Federally recognized one at that), and have become so widely disseminated as a popular Christmas-themed lawn display that their political impact is far less than, say, a crucifix or a copy of the Ten Commandments would have.

The other major question that came to mind was in regards to the American Atheists requesting that a banner go up in place of the Nativity Scene, which would probably bring about the same issue, only reversed 180 degrees. Whether or not the group would be justified in asking for the scene to be removed is of secondary importance to the real question: was it right for the American Atheists group in Wisconsin to petition to have the Nativity replaced with an Atheist banner? From the eyes of the skeptic, this kind of smacks of irony, as the Atheist banner would in effect be promoting a religious preference just as readily as a Nativity scene would. One piece of propaganda to another, maybe.

Further, do you think that this controversy will peter out much like the other big hub-dubs that always crop up in the holiday season, or could we see legitimate action taken in the courts here?

[Vetalia]

Aww, cute...they want to evangelize too!

I would be very interested to see how many non-Christians really have a problem with nativity scenes. I know I don't, quite frankly some of them are pretty impressive and they play an important role as part of the Christmas holiday. It must suck to be so miserable and bitter that you have to go after completely innocent things like this.

[Erinkita]

Aww, cute...they want to evangelize too!

I would be very interested to see how many non-Christians really have a problem with nativity scenes. I know I don't, quite frankly some of them are pretty impressive and they play an important role as part of the Christmas holiday. It must suck to be so miserable and bitter that you have to go after completely innocent things like this.

The whole thing's ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. I like to see a nice-looking nativity scene, and I've never believed in any kind of god.
And even if you don't like them... so what? Will getting rid of it really bring anyone happiness? Will having it there make the courthouse any more or less biased towards any particuar group? Is this really what people want to spend their time doing?

[The Camden City State]

Aww, cute...they want to evangelize too!

I would be very interested to see how many non-Christians really have a problem with nativity scenes. I know I don't, quite frankly some of them are pretty impressive and they play an important role as part of the Christmas holiday. It must suck to be so miserable and bitter that you have to go after completely innocent things like this.

I think the only reason this is even an issue is because of the demand to replace a Nativity Scene with an banner promoting the cause of the organization, which essentially boils down to Atheism (though they also give something of a bone to the natural sciences as well). Whether or not it's morally just or right, I can recognize the chutzpah it takes to make so bold a demand in Central Texas.

[Norstal]

Oh great. They hate us even more now.

God, these people are like our version of fundamentalism.

[Aesthetica]

Separation of church and state... I suspect the Atheists don't really want to put up a preachy banner, it's a tactic...

If you violate the law by letting the evangelicals put their religious thing on the courthouse lawn, then you let us put our secular thing on the building...

That will be unacceptable, so it gives the courthouse a problem, they can be fair, and let the atheists have some free advertising space, or they can be fair and kick the Christians off the lawn. Or they can break the law.

[The Camden City State]

Aww, cute...they want to evangelize too!

I would be very interested to see how many non-Christians really have a problem with nativity scenes. I know I don't, quite frankly some of them are pretty impressive and they play an important role as part of the Christmas holiday. It must suck to be so miserable and bitter that you have to go after completely innocent things like this.

The whole thing's ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. I like to see a nice-looking nativity scene, and I've never believed in any kind of god.
And even if you don't like them... so what? Will getting rid of it really bring anyone happiness? Will having it there make the courthouse any more or less biased towards any particuar group? Is this really what people want to spend their time doing?

It comes and goes with the season, I guess. There will be a lull in this kind of thing after Christmas, then it'll pick back up around Easter. After that, besides sporadic crucifix / cross or Ten Commandments stories in the news, you won't really hear much more about it until the next November-December... or however early people start decorating for Christmas these days. Maybe Labor Day, at the rate we're going.

[The Camden City State]

Oh great. They hate us even more now.

God, these people are like our version of fundamentalism.

If you can get past the hardcore guys on the right, I would wager a guess that most people are quite tolerant and respectful of Atheists. Militant atheists or the hardcore activists are kind of grouped into their own category, much as the major fundamental preachers of Christianity are singled out by opponents to the faith. There's a large middle ground on either side where perfectly rational believers and non-believers exist without any turmoil or conflict whatsoever. It just doesn't make for good news coverage apparently, so you don't hear much about it.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

Aww, cute...they want to evangelize too!

I would be very interested to see how many non-Christians really have a problem with nativity scenes. I know I don't, quite frankly some of them are pretty impressive and they play an important role as part of the Christmas holiday. It must suck to be so miserable and bitter that you have to go after completely innocent things like this.

I think the only reason this is even an issue is because of the demand to replace a Nativity Scene with an banner promoting the cause of the organization, .

I don't read anything about replacing one with the other. It's a banner alongside the nativity.

[New Conglomerate]

Don't put religious iconography on public property, and atheists won't have to put up information regarding that religious iconography.

Problem solved.

inb4waronchristmas

[Free Soviets]

Whether or not the group would be justified in asking for the scene to be removed is of secondary importance to the real question: was it right for the American Atheists group in Wisconsin to petition to have the Nativity replaced with an Atheist banner?

of course. because the (completely expected) answer of 'no' proves that we are talking about a clear-cut violation of the separation of church and state.

standard tactics are standard.

[New Conglomerate]

Oh great. They hate us even more now.

God, these people are like our version of fundamentalism.

If you can get past the hardcore guys on the right, I would wager a guess that most people are quite tolerant and respectful of Atheists. Militant atheists or the hardcore activists are kind of grouped into their own category, much as the major fundamental preachers of Christianity are singled out by opponents to the faith. There's a large middle ground on either side where perfectly rational believers and non-believers exist without any turmoil or conflict whatsoever. It just doesn't make for good news coverage apparently, so you don't hear much about it.

Militant atheists are hated for no reason at all. They don't crash planes into skyscrapers or bomb abortion clinics, yet they're decried as some sort of boogeyman collective.

[Ceannairceach]

Solution: Put up the banner with the Nativity scene, only with less offensive wording, along with symbols of every other faith that wants something presented. Easy, and nondiscriminatory.

[The Camden City State]

Separation of church and state... I suspect the Atheists don't really want to put up a preachy banner, it's a tactic...

If you violate the law by letting the evangelicals put their religious thing on the courthouse lawn, then you let us put our secular thing on the building...

That will be unacceptable, so it gives the courthouse a problem, they can be fair, and let the atheists have some free advertising space, or they can be fair and kick the Christians off the lawn. Or they can break the law.

The issue could probably be resolved, if not so much according to the letter of the law as by a compromise. If the Atheist group alters the demand to have the banner displayed along with the Nativity Scene instead of in place of it, then it puts the pressure on the supporters of the Nativity Scene and makes the Atheist group look more like the aggrieved parties. What's interesting is that the Atheist group is the one that felt attacked by the display... yet their initiative in trying to get the banner put up in place of the Nativity has made them out to be the aggressors.

If you either add the banner on the property along with the Nativity or keep both of them off, this becomes a non-issue.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

Easy, and nondiscriminatory.

Not quite as easy and non-discriminatory as just removing the fucking nativity.

[Desperate Measures]

Would it solve matters if both the nativity and the banner were allowed? I think I wouldn't be so against things like this if people could put up whatever they like on government property. That would be fun!

[Ceannairceach]

Easy, and nondiscriminatory.

Not quite as easy and non-discriminatory as just removing the fucking nativity.

Considering the county's obvious hellbentedness to keep the damnable thing, I doubt that will be much of an option. I foresee new ones being put up by private citizens should it come down.

[Vetalia]

Militant atheists are hated for no reason at all. They don't crash planes into skyscrapers or bomb abortion clinics, yet they're decried as some sort of boogeyman collective.

No, they're just total assholes.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

If the Atheist group alters the demand to have the banner displayed along with the Nativity Scene instead of in place of it, then it puts the pressure on the supporters of the Nativity Scene .

FFS that is the current request.

[New Conglomerate]

Easy, and nondiscriminatory.

Not quite as easy and non-discriminatory as just removing the fucking nativity.

Duh. That's why they're doing it.

[Conserative Morality]

Aww, cute...they want to evangelize too!

I would be very interested to see how many non-Christians really have a problem with nativity scenes. I know I don't, quite frankly some of them are pretty impressive and they play an important role as part of the Christmas holiday. It must suck to be so miserable and bitter that you have to go after completely innocent things like this.

I'm neither miserable nor particularly bitter. I do, however, have problems with the use of religious symbols and symbolism in what is supposed to be a religiously neutral government.

[The Camden City State]

Whether or not the group would be justified in asking for the scene to be removed is of secondary importance to the real question: was it right for the American Atheists group in Wisconsin to petition to have the Nativity replaced with an Atheist banner?

of course. because the (completely expected) answer of 'no' proves that we are talking about a clear-cut violation of the separation of church and state.

standard tactics are standard.

What I meant was that the issue wouldn't be nearly as controversial without the banner issue coming into the equation, not that the first question isn't relevant or important.

If you can get past the hardcore guys on the right, I would wager a guess that most people are quite tolerant and respectful of Atheists. Militant atheists or the hardcore activists are kind of grouped into their own category, much as the major fundamental preachers of Christianity are singled out by opponents to the faith. There's a large middle ground on either side where perfectly rational believers and non-believers exist without any turmoil or conflict whatsoever. It just doesn't make for good news coverage apparently, so you don't hear much about it.

Militant atheists are hated for no reason at all. They don't crash planes into skyscrapers or bomb abortion clinics, yet they're decried as some sort of boogeyman collective.

Well, no one ever said it was justifiable hatred.

[Fionnuala_Saoirse]

Not quite as easy and non-discriminatory as just removing the fucking nativity.

Considering the county's obvious hellbentedness to keep the damnable thing, I doubt that will be much of an option. I foresee new ones being put up by private citizens should it come down.

That's fine. Private citizens can keep putting them up and the authorities can keep taking them down.

[Norstal]

I don't read anything about replacing one with the other. It's a banner alongside the nativity.

You're right. It's probably the way the commissioner says it:

“We get a letter saying you better do this or we're going to do that," Hall said.

[Ceannairceach]

Militant atheists are hated for no reason at all. They don't crash planes into skyscrapers or bomb abortion clinics, yet they're decried as some sort of boogeyman collective.

No, they're just total assholes.

But very passive aggressive assholes, at least...