Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose

[Risottia]

How can it possibly be the antithesis of mankind when mankind produces it?

Mankind does not produce religion (except all the wrong ones like Hinduism, Islam, or Amway), God produces religion.

I assume you're Christian, right?
Actually in the Bible God never stated "worship me", not before, with Moses, a clergy was created. The clergy, which has direct access to books and lore, creates religion - that is the organised worship of the deity. Hence, even through what the Bible says, man creates religion.
From what we get through the Bible, God creates the Universe... religion is a mankind's affair - as shown by the fact that mankind created many religions.

This, of course, is different than stating that "man created God" (as I think, but that's another story).

It is the antithesis of mankind because it is perfect, of God, holy...unlike Man, who is fallen, flawed, and sinful. But we need it to be saved.

Don't you infer, from YOUR being "fallen, flawed and sinful", that everyone else is "fallen, flawed and sinful". That would be superbia.

[Baldwin for Christ]

I assume you're Christian, right?
Actually in the Bible God never stated "worship me", not before, with Moses, a clergy was created. The clergy, which has direct access to books and lore, creates religion - that is the organised worship of the deity. Hence, even through what the Bible says, man creates religion.
From what we get through the Bible, God creates the Universe... religion is a mankind's affair - as shown by the fact that mankind created many religions.

This, of course, is different than stating that "man created God" (as I think, but that's another story).

Don't you infer, from YOUR being "fallen, flawed and sinful", that everyone else is "fallen, flawed and sinful". That would be superbia.

I'm not just Christian, I'm the true kind of Christian, American Born Again Evangelical Christian. As for the clergy, God directed the clergy to be created, inspired them, spoke through them, much like he inspired me to create "Steven Baldwin's Extreme Teen Ministry and Faith Based Real Estate Short Sale Marketing System Seminars".

God creates the universe, of which religion is a part, so he created religion, at least the true one, Christianity. Mankind created religions are false.

As for superbia, I am beyond superbia, I am awesomebia. Jesus Christ brought a sword to the earth, and he's still swinging it!

[Allbeama]

Why must the first cause be perfect? Furthermore, why must the first cause be a conscious being at all? There is a first cause, therefore god exists and forgives sins, blah, blah, blah, really isn't an argument.

This is, of course, running under the assumption that your assessment of physics is completely accurate. I'd rather not get into that right now though.

I think he actually fails to grasp the point of the big bang theory. and proceeds to fill in what he does not understand with bullshit.

[Andorias]

Maybe the fault is in your writing or my reading, but I have to say that just picking up some jargon from science, laying it over -- Mad-Libs-style -- a religious argument, and declaring "It applies!" doesn't really seem like a "proof" of anything.

If you are talking about the Purpose of an Intelligent Creator, your burden of proof is quite high because you have to prove three distinct things.

First you must prove the existence of a Creator.

Then you must prove that this Creator has a Purpose.

And then you must prove that this Creator is Intelligent.

Good luck. Especially with that last one.

and THEN you have to prove that

1) The creator cares about humans

2) The creator befriends humans

3) The creator send youin a nice places if you behave in a certain way and in bad places otherwise

1-2-3 are the core of all the Abrahamic religions

[Dzvasdvsdv]

Look on the ethereal plane outside of the vatican; you will see indisputable proof that your claims are false.

Your pseudo-theological bullshit really is hilarious. So far you've seen Jehovah die, you're a dragon, and now you can see ethereal planes. You really need help.

[Pritisakiah]

So, are you saying that the existence of anything which is unfalsifiable we must remain unsure about? That we should withold judgement on the existence of a giant purple fairy called Gerald who exists outside of space/time? In fact, we can be more sure of God's non-existence, as He/She/It has supposedly influenced our universe, and therefore God's effects must be observable. In the absence of any evidence for God, it is wholly scientific to dismiss the notion of a deity, as it is for the Gerald Hypothesis (by the way, if it turns out that the universe was created by Gerald, remember that you heard it from me first).

Scientifically, yes... By strict criteria something which is unfalsifiable cannot even be proposed as an hypothesis... Because something MUST be falsifiable to be proposed (which the untestable, unobservable "God(s)" falls under)... Someone proposing that should be defeated upon their logic at asserting a God hypothesis in the first place... Because technically you're affirming their unscientific approach as valid at its face...

A belief in "influence" does not necessarily conclude to an observation. One could defeat a persons viewpoint of God based on a particular type/form of influence... But merely asserting that as a way to totally disprove all types of "God(s)" belief produces no conclusion... and most likely would get your argument pegged as a straw-man... Which it could be, assuming an active influence and its consequence, if the person holds a passive-initial influence.. Since it would propose an fake idea of what the other believes, and then tear down that "fake" (straw man) invention you made to falsely represent the point of the other.

Well, if it can't even be proposed as a hypothesis, then it can be dismissed out of hand. I don't see how the idea of God's influence that I said could be debunked is a straw-man; it's based on pretty much every religion's notion of a deity.

[Heronfield]

I'm not just Christian, I'm the true kind of Christian, American Born Again Evangelical Christian. As for the clergy, God directed the clergy to be created, inspired them, spoke through them, much like he inspired me to create "Steven Baldwin's Extreme Teen Ministry and Faith Based Real Estate Short Sale Marketing System Seminars".

God creates the universe, of which religion is a part, so he created religion, at least the true one, Christianity. Mankind created religions are false.

As for superbia, I am beyond superbia, I am awesomebia. Jesus Christ brought a sword to the earth, and he's still swinging it!

This is a joke right?

[Buffett and Colbert]

I'm not just Christian, I'm the true kind of Christian,

Fail

American Born Again Evangelical Christian.

No one cares.

As for the clergy, God directed the clergy to be created, inspired them, spoke through them,

Says who? The Bible? Oh dear...

much like he inspired me to create "Steven Baldwin's Extreme Teen Ministry and Faith Based Real Estate Short Sale Marketing System Seminars".

You spelled the name of whom you revere incorrectly. And the fact that "God" "spoke" to you indicates that you should be in a mental hospital.

God creates the universe,

Says who? The Bible again? Oh dear...

of which religion is a part, so he created religion,

Since God is a manifestation of what humans wish to be, I'd say that ALL religion is man made.

at least the true one, Christianity.

Are you for real?

Mankind created religions are false.

Which means all of Christianity is too.

As for superbia, I am beyond superbia, I am awesomebia. Jesus Christ brought a sword to the earth, and he's still swinging it!

*le sigh*

[Dzvasdvsdv]

SNIP

OH. MY. GOD. Baldwin for Christ is the same person as Hammurab, Jhahanam etc. They are the same person, and they are all satirical accounts. Fuck sake, is it not obvious?

[SaintB]

Hows it go again? Oh yeah!

Proof denies faith and faith is what God wants.

There is no proof either way, why can't people just drop the subject already.

[Buffett and Colbert]

SNIP

OH. MY. GOD. Baldwin for Christ is the same person as Hammurab, Jhahanam etc. They are the same person, and they are all satirical accounts. Fuck sake, is it not obvious?

...
No?

[Buffett and Colbert]

Hows it go again? Oh yeah!

Proof denies faith and faith is what God wants.

There is no proof either way, why can't people just drop the subject already.

There's no proof that indicates that invisible pink unicorns don't exist either.

[SaintB]

Hows it go again? Oh yeah!

Proof denies faith and faith is what God wants.

There is no proof either way, why can't people just drop the subject already.

There's no proof that indicates that invisible pink unicorns don't exist either.

Where did I say they don't?

[Buffett and Colbert]

Hows it go again? Oh yeah!

Proof denies faith and faith is what God wants.

There is no proof either way, why can't people just drop the subject already.

There's no proof that indicates that invisible pink unicorns don't exist either.

Where did I say they don't?

Oh, nowhere...

[Risottia]

I'm not just Christian, I'm the true kind of Christian, American Born Again Evangelical Christian.

Jesus Christ brought a sword to the earth, and he's still swinging it!

...you know, if the "true kind of Christian = American etc." were minimally close to truth, Christ wouldn't be swinging an english-roman-russian-islamic-looking "sword"... but...

an all-American BASEBALL BAT.

That's for awesomeness, I guess.

[Dzvasdvsdv]

...
No?

Regardless of whether you can't tell who he is, the satire is blindingly obvious.

[Buffett and Colbert]

...
No?

Regardless of whether you can't tell who he is, the satire is blindingly obvious.

Hey, it's early...

[Risottia]

...

This is a joke right?

I suppose.

[Heronfield]

It is the antithesis of mankind because it is perfect, of God, holy...unlike Man, who is fallen, flawed, and sinful. But we need it to be saved.

Ok so man is flawed

God directed the clergy to be created, inspired them, spoke through them,

So how did they create this perfect religion? You say God inspired them but they are still "flawed" people!

[The shadow of Dusk]

Icebears needs to stop using puppets in order to not be shot directly by replies. If one can't take the hits when proposing a topic (especially a controvertial one like this) then one should shut up until one is willing to stand by it.

[Heronfield]

...
No?

Regardless of whether you can't tell who he is, the satire is blindingly obvious.

He is still being relatively offensive, and hey on NS we like to pick holes in peoples logic, and this guys statements are full of it, you can't blame people for do that, least of all on NS.

[Dzvasdvsdv]

He is still being relatively offensive, and hey on NS we like to pick holes in peoples logic, and this guys statements are full of it, you can't blame people for do that, least of all on NS.

Not really, he's being funny, but the majority of NSGers seem to like a humour organ.

[Heronfield]

Mankind does not produce religion (except all the wrong ones like Hinduism, Islam, or Amway), God produces religion.

How is that not offensive?

[Treznor]

Hows it go again? Oh yeah!

Proof denies faith and faith is what God wants.

There is no proof either way, why can't people just drop the subject already.

We were supposed to have faith that God made the lightning flash and the rain fall. Turns out, we proved it wasn't him directly causing these things.

We were supposed to have faith that God makes people sick and makes them well. Turns out, we proved it wasn't him directly causing these things, either.

We were supposed to have faith that God made the celestial bodies in the heavens revolve around the earth. Turns out, we proved they don't do this, and God isn't the one moving them.

The more we discover, the less there is for God to do. Or at least, less that God can be proven to be doing. Now God is relegated to the realm of quantum mechanics and chaos theory where it's harder to prove or disprove things. So tell me: what's the difference between a God you can't observe in action and no God at all?

[Dzvasdvsdv]

How is that not offensive?

It's blatantly not serious. I think it's pretty danged funny.