Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose

[Icebears2]

Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose

Here follow the proofs:
Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.

From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo

No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source: See below website)

Religions that contradict Torah, therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.

If you accept formal logic and science you will agree with this formal logical proof. Continued reading of how to relate to the Creator you will find in this website: www.netzarim.co.il

Anders Branderud

[Unchecked Expansion]

I have no idea what half of that means. Clear english helps debate

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Why must the first cause be perfect? Furthermore, why must the first cause be a conscious being at all? There is a first cause, therefore god exists and forgives sins, blah, blah, blah, really isn't an argument.

[Tybra]

Actually the universe isn't all that perfect. Galaxy collisions are common and the balance of dark matter and dark energy is by far in perfect balance.

Also note that the big bang theory is still a theory for the existence of the universe. Perhaps the result of our own thoughts and that we simply can't stand anything being there without a beginning and an ending.

With that in mind the question arises, how would such a perfect creator come from? If a perfect creator made the big bang, wouldn't that mean that something else created the perfect creator?

[Kostemetsia]

Quick precis: UT is right. A prime cause singularity probably exists, sure, but naming it God is something only I reserve the right to do, as the sole Real Deist for the NS forums.

(Not aimed at you, Tybra.)

[Muravyets]

Maybe the fault is in your writing or my reading, but I have to say that just picking up some jargon from science, laying it over -- Mad-Libs-style -- a religious argument, and declaring "It applies!" doesn't really seem like a "proof" of anything.

If you are talking about the Purpose of an Intelligent Creator, your burden of proof is quite high because you have to prove three distinct things.

First you must prove the existence of a Creator.

Then you must prove that this Creator has a Purpose.

And then you must prove that this Creator is Intelligent.

Good luck. Especially with that last one.

[Ashmoria]

Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose

Here follow the proofs:
Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.

From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo

No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source: See below website)

Religions that contradict Torah, therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.

If you accept formal logic and science you will agree with this formal logical proof. Continued reading of how to relate to the Creator you will find in this website: http://www.netzarim.co.il

Anders Branderud

problems in the current scientific theory of the universe and how it was created is not proof of an intelligent creator. its proof that the current scientific theory needs more work.

[Risottia]

Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose

Here follow the proofs:
Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.

NO.
Because the current state of science tells use "we know nothing of what happens below Planck scale, that is about 10^(-43) seconds". So, science doesn't take into account "time-space=0".
Nice try... but I suspect that you'll be using the old "reductio ad primum/reductio ad infinitum" argument coupled with a "ex nihilo nihil fit", which we know it's made of fail since Kant and since we know of quantum fluctuations leading to spontaneous pair production.

From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.

No. This is not a fundamental law of physics.
The fundamental laws of physics are: the cosmological equation; the laws describing the four fundamental interactions; the four principles of thermodynamics.

Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo...

Hahaha. Here we are.

No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause.

This is weaseling.

Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect.

Why do you assume that the universe is logically consistent or orderly? After all, logics as we know it is a human creation - the logics of a "creator" might be entirely different.
Also, perfect =/= orderly, unless you prove it within a consistent logical set. Which, as expected, you fail to do.

Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

Weaseling, again, and trolling. ("Who disagrees with me is stupid").

So you're saying that humans are imperfect so they will never understand the perfection of the Creation.
Unless you're unhuman, this applies to you, too.
So you too cannot understand (or, as you say "successfully relate to") the perfection of the Creation.
Still you claim to know.

Logical fail.

An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

Why do you assume that the Creator is necessarily "orderly", or "just"? This is a non-sequitur from your previous reasonings.
Also, "orderly" doesn't mean "purposeful". Even assuming there is a purpose (which is quite different from having a cause), you should still show why there

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source: See below website)

False.
The Torah claims that the world was created less than 6000 years ago.
We have documentation of human presence before the 4000 BC (paintings, egyptian writings, etc).
Hence, the Torah doesn't predate the presence of man; hence, there have been men who hadn't the Torah handy.

Religions that contradict Torah, therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.

Religions that contradict the Torah are the antithesis of the God as described in the Torah.

Antithesis = greek for "contradiction".

Circular logic is circular logic is circular logic is circular logic isn't proof.

If you accept formal logic and science you will agree with this formal logical proof.

No, because this is not a formal logical proof.

Continued reading of how to relate to the Creator you will find in this website: http://www.netzarim.co.il

SPAMMER.

Anders Branderud

Aka a SPAMMER TROLL.

[South Lorenya]

Look on the ethereal plane outside of the vatican; you will see indisputable proof that your claims are false.

[Fnordgasm 5]

No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

If this perfect universe you believe exists is a reflection of a perfect creator and we are of this universe then why are we imperfect? This doesn't seem logical.

[Maerngau]

Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose

Here follow the proofs:
Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory. It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.

From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo

No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect. Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source: See below website)

Religions that contradict Torah, therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.

If you accept formal logic and science you will agree with this formal logical proof. Continued reading of how to relate to the Creator you will find in this website: http://www.netzarim.co.il

Anders Branderud

Sounds a lot like Aquinas, from a quick skim.

Plus larded up with a lot of factually untrue bullshit. Conveniently bolded.

[Maerngau]

Actually the universe isn't all that perfect. Galaxy collisions are common and the balance of dark matter and dark energy is by far in perfect balance.

Also note that the big bang theory is still a theory for the existence of the universe. Perhaps the result of our own thoughts and that we simply can't stand anything being there without a beginning and an ending.

With that in mind the question arises, how would such a perfect creator come from? If a perfect creator made the big bang, wouldn't that mean that something else created the perfect creator?

What the hell does "perfect" mean anyway?

It's a contentless, catch-all term that can be redefined howsoever one wants. Arguments from perfection stunted medieval science for hundreds of years.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

What the hell does "perfect" mean anyway?

It's a contentless, catch-all term that can be redefined howsoever one wants. Arguments from perfection stunted medieval science for hundreds of years.

The perfection argument leads to the absurdity that is the ontological argument.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Why must the first cause be perfect? Furthermore, why must the first cause be a conscious being at all? There is a first cause, therefore god exists and forgives sins, blah, blah, blah, really isn't an argument.

This is, of course, running under the assumption that your assessment of physics is completely accurate. I'd rather not get into that right now though.

[Fnordgasm 5]

Well that wasn't very good..

[Treznor]

Without conceding the point, let's assume for the moment that the argument that the Universe requires a Prime Cause is correct. Without knowing what the Prime Cause might have been, we use our imaginations to dream up a God to do this, even though we have nothing else to suggest such an entity. The concept of the Prime Cause requires a beginning for this God as well. Since you've gone so far as to extrapolate the existence of an intelligent Creator of the Universe, then what is the Prime Cause of that Creator?

[Gelgisith]

Proof-existence of an intelligent Creator+His Purpose

Here follow the proofs:
Scientists have always inferred the origin of the universe by reversing the observed state of the universe. At first, the universe was thought to be static. Thus, science held that the universe simply "always was." Then scientists theorized that gravity must cause the universe to shrink. Thus, science changed its mind, inventing the "Big Bang" Theory.

Wrong. Big Bang was theorised to explain the observed expansion of the Universe. It has nothing to do with gravity caused shrinkage.

It wasn't until 1998 that astronomers discovered that the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. Reversing an accelerating expansion to see back in time produces a universe that shrinks at a decelerating rate as one goes back in time to its origin. Follow this process to its ultimate and the rate of shrinkage reduces to converge with timespace where both are zero. That is, both shrinkage and timespace stop at timespace=0. Thus, timespace has a beginning.

From timespace=0, scientists hold that nothing in the universe magically "popped in" with no cause. It is a fundamental law of physics that every physical occurrence in the universe has a cause.
The fundamental laws of physics then require a cause of the universe ex nihilo; i.e., a Prime Cause Singularity that is non-dimensional and independent of timespace. In contrast to endless opinionating of innumerable pseudo-scientific religionists, science recognizes the necessity of a Prime Cause ex nihilo

No eminent scientist represents that our perfectly-orderly universe can be explained ex nihilo without a Prime Cause. Being logically consistent (orderly), the universe must mirror its Prime Cause / Singularity-Creator—Who must be Perfectly Orderly; i.e. Perfect.

Neither a creator, nor its perfection necessarily follow from the premise, even if you accept a primal cause.

Therefore, no intelligent person can ignore that our purpose and challenge in life is learning how we, as imperfect humans, may successfully relate to a Perfect Singularity-Creator without our co-mingling, which transcends the timespace of this dimensional physical universe, becoming an imperfection to the Perfect Singularity-Creator

Again, doesn't necessarily follow.

An orderly Creator necessarily had an Intelligent Purpose in creating this universe and us within it and, being Just and Orderly, necessarily placed an explanation, a "Life's Instruction Manual," within the reach of His subjects—humankind.

No, an intelligent purpose does not necessarily follow from the premise of an orderly creator, nor does a manual necessarily follow from either.

It defies the orderliness (logic / mathematics) of both the universe and Perfection of its Creator to assert that humanity was (contrary to His Tor•âh′ , see below) without any means of rapproachment until millennia after the first couple in recorded history as well as millennia after Abraham, Moses and the prophets. Therefore, the Creator's "Life's Instruction Manual" has been available to man at least since the beginning of recorded history. The only enduring document of this kind is the Tor•âh′ —which, interestingly, translates to "Instruction" (not "law" as popularly alleged). (Source: See below website)

While you have a point, it doesn't necessarily follow that the Torah is that manual. After all, even the Torah is only introduced some 3000 years ago. It is illogical to presume a manual would be given halfway through history, rather than at the very start.

Religions that contradict Torah, therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.

If you accept formal logic and science you will agree with this formal logical proof.

I've given several reasons why your argumentation is flawed.

Continued reading[...]

...is not necessary & i'll be damned if i'll cooperate with your spamming.

[Risottia]

What the hell does "perfect" mean anyway?

Perfect:

In number theory, a perfect number is a natural number that is equal to the sum of its natural divisors (minus itself).
6, 28, 496, 8128, 33550336, 8589869056, 137438691328, 2305843008139952128, 2658455991569831744654692615953842176, 191561942608236107294793378084303638130997321548169216

are perfect numbers.

In topology, a set is perfect if it's equal to the set of its limit points; that is, a closed set having no isolated points.

[Crabulonia]

See the Thomas Aquinas argument has always caused me some trouble. He basically states, nothing comes from nothing. Very true fact, so he thens goes on to say that the universe is a big something so needs a bigger something beforehand. He negelcts to mention that to create this original big thing, you'd probably need a bigger thing.

The whole circular logic sentence is excellent.

[RoI2]

Did anyone else find no proof in this?

[Fnordgasm 5]

This is the OP first ever post.

I'm getting the feeling it might be his last.

[UnhealthyTruthseeker]

Are you actually going to remain and defend your point or are you just going to run off?

[Treznor]

Are you actually going to remain and defend your point or are you just going to run off?

Either he's not a very fast typist, or he wasn't expecting so many refutations to land on his head so quickly.

[The Tofu Islands]

Either he's not a very fast typist, or he wasn't expecting so many refutations to land on his head so quickly.

Given that ey doesn't have an "online" banner I suspect it's just a post & vanish thing.

[Fnordgasm 5]

Are you actually going to remain and defend your point or are you just going to run off?

Either he's not a very fast typist, or he wasn't expecting so many refutations to land on his head so quickly.

Or he never had any intention of ever posting again?