November 30th Strikes - UK

[Great Nepal]

I dont support the justifications of strikes: USA, Germany and even Norway has retirement age of 67: clearly it isn't killing any old people there. Not to mention, they are getting a damn good value - teachers have to pay 9.4% whereas you would have to pay 40% to get equivalent pensions in private sector.

On the other hand, I am getting a day off school - so I guess I wouldn't mind having few more days of strikes.

[Melmont]

I dont support the justifications of strikes: USA, Germany and even Norway has retirement age of 67: clearly it isn't killing any old people there. Not to mention, they are getting a damn good value - teachers have to pay 9.4% whereas you would have to pay 40% to get equivalent pensions in private sector.

On the other hand, I am getting a day off school - so I guess I wouldn't mind having few more days of strikes.

Hahaa, fair enough! And I agree, people should work longer if they're living longer! Its just ethically, morally and socially wrong that they should get back less than they're putting it.

[Bales Rant]

If people are living longer, then the retirement age should go up the two years. I'm not sure about extra contributions - I think one or the other, both is unfair. However, it's pretty obvious where the impetus behind this is coming from: the deficit.

It's fucking outrageous that public sector workers, along with other ordinary Joes, are literally paying for the bailout at a time when bankers bonuses are getting even bigger.

I think it was only in Feb this year that RBS bankers were getting £950m in bonuses despite a £1.1b loss. That isn't right in my book at least.

For that reason I support the strikes and the strikers. There's too much 'I'm alright Jack' about at the moment and not enough 'I'm Spartacus.'

[Melmont]

If people are living longer, then the retirement age should go up the two years. I'm not sure about extra contributions - I think one or the other, both is unfair. However, it's pretty obvious where the impetus behind this is coming from: the deficit.

It's fucking outrageous that public sector workers, along with other ordinary Joes, are literally paying for the bailout at a time when bankers bonuses are getting even bigger.

I think it was only in Feb this year that RBS bankers were getting £950m in bonuses despite a £1.1b loss. That isn't right in my book at least.

For that reason I support the strikes and the strikers. There's too much 'I'm alright Jack' about at the moment' and not enough 'I'm Spartacus.'

Yes! I totally agree.. The government has near-crippled every public sector department in a bid to erase a deficit that never seems to get any smaller, and now they want people to literally PAY the government for an extra 2 years of work by contributing money to pensions which they will never see again!

[Bales Rant]

If people are living longer, then the retirement age should go up the two years. I'm not sure about extra contributions - I think one or the other, both is unfair. However, it's pretty obvious where the impetus behind this is coming from: the deficit.

It's fucking outrageous that public sector workers, along with other ordinary Joes, are literally paying for the bailout at a time when bankers bonuses are getting even bigger.

I think it was only in Feb this year that RBS bankers were getting £950m in bonuses despite a £1.1b loss. That isn't right in my book at least.

For that reason I support the strikes and the strikers. There's too much 'I'm alright Jack' about at the moment' and not enough 'I'm Spartacus.'

Yes! I totally agree.. The government has near-crippled every public sector department in a bid to erase a deficit that never seems to get any smaller, and now they want people to literally PAY the government for an extra 2 years of work by contributing money to pensions which they will never see again!

And given today's forecasts borrowing will probably end up going up because more people will be on jobseekers because there's no growth and no job creation. The eternal question for me is: are Tories incompetent or nasty, or a sublime mixture of both?

[Call to power]

We still have a public sector?

I'm not supportive of them (the strikers), the public purse is in an absolute state at the moment and no amount of striking is going to magically improve that situation beyond making it a nightmare for the running of everything else. Do they actually expect the government to back down on this? Do they realise how the markets would react to impossibility of the government backing down?

And lets be honest, what do private sector business REALLY offer the people of Britain, other than services or products at extortionate prices that rise in line with this ridiculous government & its english banks' figures of inflation and interest rates.

They fund the entire country dear.

I should probably add that comparing public and private sector pensions is fucking insane, perhaps more so than pay rates but penny to a pound I imagine most of you guys aren't currently part of any pension scheme.

you fight to give them to private sector workers too!

wut?

[Melmont]

We still have a public sector?

I'm not supportive of them (the strikers), the public purse is in an absolute state at the moment and no amount of striking is going to magically improve that situation beyond making it a nightmare for the running of everything else. Do they actually expect the government to back down on this? Do they realise how the markets would react to impossibility of the government backing down?

And lets be honest, what do private sector business REALLY offer the people of Britain, other than services or products at extortionate prices that rise in line with this ridiculous government & its english banks' figures of inflation and interest rates.

They fund the entire country dear.

I should probably add that comparing public and private sector pensions is fucking insane, perhaps more so than pay rates but penny to a pound I imagine most of you guys aren't currently part of any pension scheme.

you fight to give them to private sector workers too!

wut?

Admittedly, the public purse is in a state and its Labour thats got us into this (even though I'm a supporter of them).. But they're cutting jobs, raising taxes and funding as little public projects as they can.. if they can find £5bn in Public Sector cuts to fund new housing projects (which no one will be able to buy anyway because banks aren't lending) then how on EARTH can they be thinking they have no money for pensions so they'll commit daylight robbery of peoples money!?

[Cosmopoles]

I don't really have much sympathy. Its still a relatively good deal that they've been offered and there has to be some way of funding the pension deficit.

[Melmont]

Yes! I totally agree.. The government has near-crippled every public sector department in a bid to erase a deficit that never seems to get any smaller, and now they want people to literally PAY the government for an extra 2 years of work by contributing money to pensions which they will never see again!

And given today's forecasts borrowing will probably end up going up because more people will be on jobseekers because there's no growth and no job creation. The eternal question for me is: are Tories incompetent or nasty, or a sublime mixture of both?

As Margaret Thatcher once said: "Yes, the medicine is harsh - but the patient requires it". Even she didn't g this far, though.

[Melmont]

I don't really have much sympathy. Its still a relatively good deal that they've been offered and there has to be some way of funding the pension deficit.

There isn't a pensions deficit though.. the government gets more money from NHS pensions contributions ALONE than they hand out in benefits.

[Oterro]

If people are living longer, then the retirement age should go up the two years. I'm not sure about extra contributions - I think one or the other, both is unfair. However, it's pretty obvious where the impetus behind this is coming from: the deficit.

It's fucking outrageous that public sector workers, along with other ordinary Joes, are literally paying for the bailout at a time when bankers bonuses are getting even bigger.

I think it was only in Feb this year that RBS bankers were getting £950m in bonuses despite a £1.1b loss. That isn't right in my book at least.

For that reason I support the strikes and the strikers. There's too much 'I'm alright Jack' about at the moment and not enough 'I'm Spartacus.'

I like you you sound like my dad.


I'm not going to work because labour is refusing to cross picket lines so that's good though I'd probably strike had i the option.

[Cosmopoles]

There isn't a pensions deficit though.. the government gets more money from NHS pensions contributions ALONE than they hand out in benefits.

The deficit could be as high as £1.3 trillion.

[Call to power]

the average private company director will receive £240,000 a year in pension compared to the £4,500 a year of a Nurse, £7,000 a year of a Social Worker, and £13,000 a year of a doctor.

You do realise the substantial difference between a director and a doctor right? I would suggest comparing it to an NHS director but even then you would be wrong

It's fucking outrageous that public sector workers, along with other ordinary Joes, are literally paying for the bailout at a time when bankers bonuses are getting even bigger.

Are we still banging on about this? Look dear the government either brought out sections of the financial industry that it had fail to regulate (failed to regulate in a pretty near on criminal manner if you ask me) in a correct manner or provided loans to those in trouble. That is not a case of "hurrr dey gots all our money" the shareholders of Northern Rock for example lost every penny with the nationalisation (some of which was for pensions, how very topical) and though I would object to the recent sale the government is able to profit from these assets.

The real problem is state revenue has sharply fallen and this is a rather bad time for state borrowing and that is why the government has to make cuts in the support it can provide

[Panda Bears]

Yey! No school.

[Melmont]

There isn't a pensions deficit though.. the government gets more money from NHS pensions contributions ALONE than they hand out in benefits.

The deficit could be as high as £1.3 trillion.

There isn't a deficit on pensions.. the government gets handed £2bn more each year in contributions than it hands out in benefits, and if everyone stopped contributing, money that has been paid into pensions over the years could still be paid out with no loss to the treasury until 2031.

[Melmont]

the average private company director will receive £240,000 a year in pension compared to the £4,500 a year of a Nurse, £7,000 a year of a Social Worker, and £13,000 a year of a doctor.

You do realise the substantial difference between a director and a doctor right? I would suggest comparing it to an NHS director but even then you would be wrong

It's fucking outrageous that public sector workers, along with other ordinary Joes, are literally paying for the bailout at a time when bankers bonuses are getting even bigger.

Are we still banging on about this? Look dear the government either brought out sections of the financial industry that it had fail to regulate (failed to regulate in a pretty near on criminal manner if you ask me) in a correct manner or provided loans to those in trouble. That is not a case of "hurrr dey gots all our money" the shareholders of Northern Rock for example lost every penny with the nationalisation (some of which was for pensions, how very topical) and though I would object to the recent sale the government is able to profit from these assets.

The real problem is state revenue has sharply fallen and this is a rather bad time for state borrowing and that is why the government has to make cuts in the support it can provide

I do realise the difference, however that further evidences a point that Private Sector workers can GET THAT PENSION IF THEY WANT TO (Sorry, I shouted a tad there). The reality of it is that there is really no need for pension reforms.. Everyone pays for everyone else's pension, and thats a fact. This is proved by the fact that we are an interdependent nation, and at a time where deep public sector cuts are crippling households and causing bankruptcy, it really isn't the time to be fiddling with peoples pensions. No one has ever complained about the amount that the government contributes to its workers pensions, and if they're unhappy that their private employers pay less, they themselves should strike for better contributions, as opposed to calling for Public Sector workers pensions to be reduced.

[Call to power]

Admittedly, the public purse is in a state and its Labour thats got us into this

I do not think that is an entirely fair assessment but whatever

But they're cutting jobs, raising taxes and funding as little public projects as they can.

Well yeah but that is kinda what states generally do during times of recession and had labour won the previous election we would still be looking at these cuts (only I imagine the strikes would suddenly have much less support) albeit on a slower rate.

if they can find £5bn in Public Sector cuts to fund new housing projects (which no one will be able to buy anyway because banks aren't lending) then how on EARTH can they be thinking they have no money for pensions so they'll commit daylight robbery of peoples money!?

The housing funds are actually to get the property market going again which when it does will put the economy back on the rails and the banks lending (because property will start increasing in value).

This is not about saving some squaddie who had his legs blown off or whatever this is actually hoped to be an enormously smart investment for the government that will provide a return

[Yootwopia]

So, whats your true and honest opinion about the Public Sector Strikes going ahead in the UK on the 30th regarding pensions which will involve over 2 million Social Workers, Teachers, Care Workers, Police Officers/PCSO's, Ambulance Workers, Nurses, Ambulance Workers, Binmen and Dinner Ladies?

Keep the red flag flying high, etc.

[Melmont]

The housing funds are actually to get the property market going again which when it does will put the economy back on the rails and the banks lending (because property will start increasing in value).

This is not about saving some squaddie who had his legs blown off or whatever this is actually hoped to be an enormously smart investment for the government that will provide a return

So whilst they build all these houses in a bid to keep GDP up above the negative figures, we'll slid back down into recession where prices will rise, lending will stop and cuts will deepen. By the time these houses are built, banks AGIAIN won't be lending, inflation will be back up and unemployment will no doubt be slowly rising. They're doing too much at, taking things too far and too fast.

[Cosmopoles]

There isn't a deficit on pensions.. the government gets handed £2bn more each year in contributions than it hands out in benefits, and if everyone stopped contributing, money that has been paid into pensions over the years could still be paid out with no loss to the treasury until 2031.

Yes, there is a deficit. Just because the public pension funds are sufficiently funded now does not mean they will have enough funding as the number of retirees increases and the working population shrinks.

See this report from the Office of Budget Responsibility (page 36).

[Cosmopoles]

I do realise the difference, however that further evidences a point that Private Sector workers can GET THAT PENSION IF THEY WANT TO (Sorry, I shouted a tad there). The reality of it is that there is really no need for pension reforms.. Everyone pays for everyone else's pension, and thats a fact.

Are you seriously suggesting that we let taxpayers fund public and private pensions?

[Call to power]

I do realise the difference, however that further evidences a point that Private Sector workers can GET THAT PENSION IF THEY WANT TO (Sorry, I shouted a tad there).

It does? I quite clearly said that even like for like comparisons are a different kettle of fish

The reality of it is that there is really no need for pension reforms.. Everyone pays for everyone else's pension, and thats a fact.

Is it fuck.

The company pension I am with atm is funded by my own contribution plus a percentage from my employer, this money is then part of a fund that is invested into other areas like Icelandic banks and sub-prime mortgages. When I go to collect my annuity the state will give me a nice tax break on account of the fact that I won't be on its tit for the next 40 years.

"but CtP what about your State pension!"

Comes from my NI contribution, sorry.

This is proved by the fact that we are an interdependent nation, and at a time where deep public sector cuts are crippling households and causing bankruptcy, it really isn't the time to be fiddling with peoples pensions.

Can we suddenly afford these expenses in your fantasy land? Look the state is not making the kind of money it was before recession and at the moment it needs to cut its borrowing before we start getting funny looks, we simply cannot provide the services we once could and that fact is pretty inescapable.

No one has ever complained about the amount that the government contributes to its workers pensions

What planet have you been living on then?

and if they're unhappy that their private employers pay less, they themselves should strike for better contributions, as opposed to calling for Public Sector workers pensions to be reduced.

Or rather they will understand something about finance and how this is their money that is being played with

[Call to power]

So whilst they build all these houses in a bid to keep GDP up above the negative figures, we'll slid back down into recession where prices will rise, lending will stop and cuts will deepen.

Only we won't if it pays off and whilst we are at it this will solve the housing shortage we will start hitting soon.

By the time these houses are built, banks AGIAIN won't be lending

If property prices start falling again, something that I doubt at this point.

They're doing too much at, taking things too far and too fast.

You do know you can form a separate opinion to part slogans right?

[Yootwopia]

You do know you can form a separate opinion to party slogans right?

I think one of the most offensive things about New Labour at the moment is this whole slogan pish. And this is from someone who broadly supports them. That and Brownites insincerely pretending to have feelings about anything other than money.

[Melmont]

I do realise the difference, however that further evidences a point that Private Sector workers can GET THAT PENSION IF THEY WANT TO (Sorry, I shouted a tad there). The reality of it is that there is really no need for pension reforms.. Everyone pays for everyone else's pension, and thats a fact.

Are you seriously suggesting that we let taxpayers fund public and private pensions?

Yes. I am. And do you know who else pays for the pensions of people whos companies have closed down or gone bust? Little old british taxpayer, thats who.