NationStates

Farnhamia Redux wrote:Hitler or Stalin or Mao?

Lions and tigers and bears?

Tinker to Evers to Chance?

Pirates or ninjas?

I never could understand this kind of debate. All three of them were mass-murderers. debating who was worse is like talking about which is worse, diphtheria, typhoid or the plague.

I couldn't agree more.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Reagan States wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:Hitler was the worst. He was a Racist, who spread hate and fear through an entire country, and killed his victims without mercy or conscience.

Stalin was both a RACIST and a CLASSIST. Stalin was a bad bad boy.

I don't remember Stalin being a racist, or at least not acting on his racist views, and Communists have no class, remember comrade?;)

stalin definately had no class, thats for true.

Grays Harbor wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:

Reagan States wrote:Stalin was both a RACIST and a CLASSIST. Stalin was a bad bad boy.

I don't remember Stalin being a racist, or at least not acting on his racist views, and Communists have no class, remember comrade?;)

stalin definately had no class, thats for true.

A Russian emigre I knew told me that people who worked at the Kremlin were afraid to leave their desks because Stalin was an insomniac and given to calling anyone at any hour of the day or night, and the last thing you wanted was to be away when he called.

I voted for Stalin, but Hitler was close of course. But what lead me to the choice is looking at the world today. I believe Stalin's oppression has left more lasting marks. Germany recovered from Nazism very well, even though it's true that the elimination of the European Jews is one effect we can see to this day. But Stalin made the USSR into a superpower, which pushed Eastern Europe into totalitarianism for some seventy years. And the effects of that are very clear to this day.

And on a more personal note, without him, Czechoslovakia would have ended up in the west.

So I just think that Stalin left far more lasting marks on today's world.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Reagan States wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:Hitler was the worst. He was a Racist, who spread hate and fear through an entire country, and killed his victims without mercy or conscience.

Stalin was both a RACIST and a CLASSIST. Stalin was a bad bad boy.

I don't remember Stalin being a racist, or at least not acting on his racist views, and Communists have no class, remember comrade?;)

Oh, Stalin blamed the Jews for everything too. And he exterminated the intelligentsia, and "bourgeoisie", so yeah-classist.

Conserative Morality wrote:I don't remember Stalin being a racist, or at least not acting on his racist views

Are you kidding? Stalin killed Poles, Jews, Turks, anyone who wasn't a model Great Russian.

and Communists have no class, remember comrade?;)

And Nazis only have one race, mein Fuehrer.

If your looking at this like "who killed more" then: Hitler killed, 17,000,000. Stalin killed 60,000,000. Mao killed 72,000,000.

All of them were responsible for huge numbers of deaths. It doesn't matter who killed more as the numbers each of them have killed were whole populations of towns and even cities. The number that Mao had killed are slightly less than the number killed in World War 2. Whole towns and nearly whole ethnicities were destroyed by them in their purges, leap fowards or genocides.

[x] Karl Marx.

Marx provided the insidiously brutal ideology that justified both Mao and Stalin (and also Pol Pot). Hitler briefly flirted with the commies as well. No Marx, no great butchers of the 20th century.

Reagan States wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:I don't remember Stalin being a racist, or at least not acting on his racist views

Are you kidding? Stalin killed Poles, Jews, Turks, anyone who wasn't a model Great Russian.

and Communists have no class, remember comrade?;)

And Nazis only have one race, mein Fuehrer.

Eh, didn't know that about the racism. What I was trying to say on the 'class' part is that Stalin was doing his duty to the people, according to the views of most of the people, the whole classless society they were supposed to be at. They weren't supposed to have class, ergo, Classist was acceptable in the Communist Ideology, and something that could be remedied by fines.

To be fair though, you are right, he usually just sent them to the Gulag.

Or had them shot.

But he didn't starve them, then slowly kill them and allow medical experiments to be performed on him. Stalin either killed them outright, and gave them life in the Gulag, hard, unpleasent, but no death sentence.

Most of the time. I'm not saying Stalin was good, I'm saying he was better than Hitler.

Conserative Morality wrote:And the Holodomor, while a tragedy, wasn't Stalin's fault for just pure evil. It was bad timing, and bad policies, ones that were meant to help.

Yeah man, confiscating crops from starving peasants, that's just bad policy, right?

ok but just because Stalin was doing it because that was what Communist society was supposed to be like, Hitler had the same intentions trying to make it the way Nazi society was supposed to be like.
So yes, both are bad. Stalin just caused more long-term effects (and I'm not saying Hitler wouldn't have caused more long term effects if he'd had the chance)

Conserative Morality wrote:What I was trying to say on the 'class' part is that Stalin was doing his duty to the people,

So was Pol Pot.

Hitler. One word: Holocaust

Ferrous Oxide wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:And the Holodomor, while a tragedy, wasn't Stalin's fault for just pure evil. It was bad timing, and bad policies, ones that were meant to help.

Yeah man, confiscating crops from starving peasants, that's just bad policy, right?

In the name of Communism, which you support, nyet comrade? I thought it was just those evil bourgeoisie that were getting their just deserts.

Point is, I don't think Stalin meant for the deaths to happen. It was partially his fault, yes, but entirely? No.

Reagan States wrote:ok but just because Stalin was doing it because that was what Communist society was supposed to be like, Hitler had the same intentions trying to make it the way Nazi society was supposed to be like.
So yes, both are bad. Stalin just caused more long-term effects (and I'm not saying Hitler wouldn't have caused more long term effects if he'd had the chance)

Eh, point taken. Still, my point about the Gulag work camps versus the Nazi Camps, where they performed medical experiments and brutally killed them off, still stands. The Gulags, while horrible, where not nearly as bad.

Ferrous Oxide wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:What I was trying to say on the 'class' part is that Stalin was doing his duty to the people,

So was Pol Pot.

Point taken, already said so in above post.

Chetssaland wrote:Hitler. One word: Holocaust

Stalin. One phrase: Siberian death camps

Lizardiar wrote:

Chetssaland wrote:Hitler. One word: Holocaust

Stalin. One phrase: Siberian death camps

The Gulags were work camps. They'd shoot them there on occasion, quite often, in fact, but it wasn't the kind of cyanide-feeding, gas-chamber herding that Hitler did.

Conserative Morality wrote:Eh, point taken. Still, my point about the Gulag work camps versus the Nazi Camps, where they performed medical experiments and brutally killed them off, still stands. The Gulags, while horrible, where not nearly as bad.

At least the Concentration camps were warm, I'd hate to be forced into one of those Siberian Gulags. Although I wouldn't like to be experimented on either. At least in Gulags you were permitted to take care of yourself and build your own hut to live in. On the other hand, you might escape in a Concentration camp, Gulags there's no where to run to. Both are bad.

Reagan States wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:Eh, point taken. Still, my point about the Gulag work camps versus the Nazi Camps, where they performed medical experiments and brutally killed them off, still stands. The Gulags, while horrible, where not nearly as bad.

At least the Concentration camps were warm, I'd hate to be forced into one of those Siberian Gulags. Although I wouldn't like to be experimented on either. At least in Gulags you were permitted to take care of yourself and build your own hut to live in. On the other hand, you might escape in a Concentration camp, Gulags there's no where to run to. Both are bad.

What, you don't like the cold? The Siberian wilderness is a very nice place!

The Great Leap Forward and Mao's other policies probably resulted in more deaths than there were in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union during Stalin's reign, so my vote goes to Mao.

Lizardeir change it to multiple votes. I wanna vote for all three, because they all three woulda done the same exact thing in the other two's shoes (more or less).

Conserative Morality wrote:Point is, I don't think Stalin meant for the deaths to happen. It was partially his fault, yes, but entirely? No.

If we could try Stalin in court today, do you really think that "I didn't think the Ukrainians would starve when we took all their food" would stand up?

Chetssaland wrote:Hitler. One word: Holocaust

The life of a Jew is not worth any more or any less than the life of someone from Eastern Europe or China. Just because Hitler killed only one group of people does not make him more vile, in fact it makes him less, as he killed a lot less people than the other two.

I'd have to go with Mao, based on sheer numbers.

If your looking at this like "who killed more" then: Hitler killed, 17,000,000. Stalin killed 60,000,000. Mao killed 72,000,000.

Most estimates that I have seen place Stalin at around 20 million, Hitler at around 12 million, and Mao at 40-72 million.

Ferrous Oxide wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:Point is, I don't think Stalin meant for the deaths to happen. It was partially his fault, yes, but entirely? No.

If we could try Stalin in court today, do you really think that "I didn't think the Ukrainians would starve when we took all their food" would stand up?

It's known as taxation. Ergo, everyone who starved today in any country, which could be argued as problems arising from taxation, could be charged with that. But it's a moot point because Stalin would undoubtedly be executed for the millions of others he murdered.

And because you've admitted that the main reason you hate Stalin more is because he killed 'your people'.

Lizardiar wrote:

Chetssaland wrote:Hitler. One word: Holocaust

Stalin. One phrase: Siberian death camps

Mao. One phrase: The Great Leap Forward

Valipac wrote:
I'd have to go with Mao, based on sheer numbers.

If your looking at this like "who killed more" then: Hitler killed, 17,000,000. Stalin killed 60,000,000. Mao killed 72,000,000.

Most estimates that I have seen place Stalin at around 20 million, Hitler at around 12 million, and Mao at 40-72 million.

These are the highest estimates that I have found that I used here.