Affirmative Action?

[West Harristan]

Do you believe affirmative action is still needed in the United States? If so, for whom?

I'm not really sure of my stance on it, personally. I do know, however, it should be discouraged when judging college/university admissions. That should solely be based on academic ability. Why should someone get into a higher education institution just because of their race/nationality/sexuality/etc?

[Lordieth]

Positive discrimination is still discrimination. Any social advantages based on ethnicity are generally not a good idea, even as a method to readdress a balance of a percieved disadvantage, as it can ironically fuel resentment; college placements being a prime example.

The solution is to tackle the reason for the imbalance, not to tip the scales.

[Cosmopoles]

More needs to be done to improve the opportunities of disadvantaged minorities but I'm not convinced that affirmative action is the most effective way to achieve that goal.

[SaintB]

Positive discrimination is still discrimination. Any social advantages based on ethnicity are generally not a good idea, even as a method to readdress a balance of a percieved disadvantage, as it can ironically fuel resentment; college placements being a prime example.

The solution is to tackle the reason for the imbalance, not to tip the scales.

I no longer need to post in this thread.

[Jello Biafra]

The solution is to tackle the reason for the imbalance

Which is what affirmative action does, or at least aims to do.

[Augustus Este]

Positive discrimination is still discrimination. Any social advantages based on ethnicity are generally not a good idea, even as a method to readdress a balance of a percieved disadvantage, as it can ironically fuel resentment; college placements being a prime example.

The solution is to tackle the reason for the imbalance, not to tip the scales.

The disproportionate lack of college education is a reason for the economic divide.

[SaintB]

The solution is to tackle the reason for the imbalance

Which is what affirmative action does, or at least aims to do.

No it doesn't, it doesn't do anything to adjust the differences and perceptions in society that create the problem. Its a band-aid over a bayonet wound.

[Altarians]

i believe education is a human right, although if you don't want it, that sucks for you and the primitive brain you operate.

it should be affordable to go to college.

[Osterveim]

Bah, my Dad lost out on a promotion because the guy three names down on the list happened to be an African-American. Stupid politicians applying political correctness to the FDNY. X(

[Ragnarsdomr]

Cut at the base of the problem. If specific minorities do not have as many people in certain parts of society, don't assume the answer is to force positions open for them in that part of society, but look at the reasons why. Is it because they're simply not moving towards those positions? Is it because they're being denied them based on legitimate issues, such as perhaps certain educational requirements not being available to that group? Is it because they're being denied them based on illegitimate issues such as racism? Then solve it based on them. As far as I've seen, personally, the response has been generally to yell "YOU NEED MORE PEOPLE HERE" and try to do that in the fastest, not the most effective, way possible, such as forcing ethnic or sexual quotas among hired members, which does not necessarily translate to increased ethnic or sexual representation among the higher levels, where it does matter.

On the other hand, the East India Company is now owned by an ethnic Indian, so, that's always a good sign of the world being less selective. Now they can blame someone who isn't white for the next large foliage project.

[Free Soviets]

I'm not really sure of my stance on it, personally. I do know, however, it should be discouraged when judging college/university admissions. That should solely be based on academic ability. Why should someone get into a higher education institution just because of their race/nationality/sexuality/etc?

how are you going to judge 'academic ability' when we know that parental education, wealth, and address have absolutely huge impacts on things like grades and test scores? is a white kid from an affluent suburb who can afford $40/hour tutoring 3 times a week who gets a 25 on the ACT more able than a hispanic kid from a family that only has limited english and lives in an area with shitty schools who gets a 23?

and why would we want to just base admissions off of 'academic ability' anyways? i want a university that takes things like community-mindedness and social justice into account. makes both the university and society a better place for everyone.

[Free Soviets]

Which is what affirmative action does, or at least aims to do.

No it doesn't, it doesn't do anything to adjust the differences and perceptions in society that create the problem. Its a band-aid over a bayonet wound.

the existence of the growing black middle class seems to suggest otherwise.

[SaintB]

No it doesn't, it doesn't do anything to adjust the differences and perceptions in society that create the problem. Its a band-aid over a bayonet wound.

the existence of the growing black middle class seems to suggest otherwise.

I don't believe that affirmative action has anything to do with that.

[Jello Biafra]

Which is what affirmative action does, or at least aims to do.

No it doesn't, it doesn't do anything to adjust the differences and perceptions in society that create the problem. Its a band-aid over a bayonet wound.

Black people receiving higher education doesn't address the perception that black people are uneducated? Increased exposure to educated black people doesn't do anything to adjust differences and perceptions? Really?

[Free Soviets]

the existence of the growing black middle class seems to suggest otherwise.

I don't believe that affirmative action has anything to do with that.

so, unlike how it goes for every other group, educational attainment isn't intimately tied to economic class among the black population? or are you implying that affirmative action doesn't result in increased educational attainment or career opportunities?

[Occupied Deutschland]

No it doesn't, it doesn't do anything to adjust the differences and perceptions in society that create the problem. Its a band-aid over a bayonet wound.

Black people receiving higher education doesn't address the perception that black people are uneducated? Increased exposure to educated black people doesn't do anything to adjust differences and perceptions? Really?

Well, when one knows the reason they are educated is a leg-up because of their skin-color it is easy for perceptions to become less positive. (Damn ni**** stole my job/college placement/what-have-you)

If they are going to use this whole affirmative action thing though, I have one question. Where's mine? My ancestors were discriminated against and kept from being fully integrated members of society, tell me! Where is the affirmative action for Irish Americans!
_{The above complaint is entirely sarcastic}

[Jello Biafra]

Black people receiving higher education doesn't address the perception that black people are uneducated? Increased exposure to educated black people doesn't do anything to adjust differences and perceptions? Really?

Well, when one knows the reason they are educated is a leg-up because of their skin-color it is easy for perceptions to become less positive. (Damn ni**** stole my job/college placement/what-have-you)

While a person might think that, it's unlikely for a person to know that.

If they are going to use this whole affirmative action thing though, I have one question. Where's mine? My ancestors were discriminated against and kept from being fully integrated members of society, tell me! Where is the affirmative action for Irish Americans!
_{The above complaint is entirely sarcastic}

It's good that you noted that this complaint is sarcastic, because people have non-sarcastically made such arguments. It gets to be wearying pointing out to people the difference between state-endorsed and mandated discrimination and mere social discrimination.

[Saiwania]

The disproportionate lack of college education is a reason for the economic divide.

A degree does not guarantee a good job, especially within a bear economy. If a degree is more commonly obtained it actually becomes less valuable.

[Xeng He]

Do you believe affirmative action is still needed in the United States? If so, for whom?

I don't think race-based affirmative action should. Especially when it's possible to aid the disadvantaged specifically rather than going by race.

I'm not really sure of my stance on it, personally. I do know, however, it should be discouraged when judging college/university admissions. That should solely be based on academic ability. Why should someone get into a higher education institution just because of their race/nationality/sexuality/etc?

Academic ability can be a bit...distorted, by the kind of material you have access to (can't do extra-curriculars when your school doesn't offer, and when you have a job, etc.), and,in the case of test scores, how much preparation you're allowed to have before the final score is submitted.

[Lordieth]

Which is what affirmative action does, or at least aims to do.

No it doesn't, it doesn't do anything to adjust the differences and perceptions in society that create the problem. Its a band-aid over a bayonet wound.

Precisely. Affirmative action changes the end balance, it doesn't prevent the imbalance from occuring, which is the underlying cause.

Affirmative action treats the symptom, not the disease. It's artificial progress because it doesn't treat the source.

[Xeng He]

Precisely. Affirmative action changes the end balance, it doesn't prevent the imbalance from occuring, which is the underlying cause.

Affirmative action treats the symptom, not the disease. It's artificial progress because it doesn't treat the source.

Well, eventually, the actual need for affirmative action would start to dissipate when suddenly, all those disadvantages of one generation weren't present in the next.

Which still only leaves affirmative action necessary for a few generations at most, but...there's a logic behind it.

[Vazdania]

it should be outlawed!

[Augustus Este]

No it doesn't, it doesn't do anything to adjust the differences and perceptions in society that create the problem. Its a band-aid over a bayonet wound.

Precisely. Affirmative action changes the end balance, it doesn't prevent the imbalance from occuring, which is the underlying cause.

Affirmative action treats the symptom, not the disease. It's artificial progress because it doesn't treat the source.

The source being poverty, which is (many times) caused by a lack of education...

[Lordieth]

No it doesn't, it doesn't do anything to adjust the differences and perceptions in society that create the problem. Its a band-aid over a bayonet wound.

Black people receiving higher education doesn't address the perception that black people are uneducated? Increased exposure to educated black people doesn't do anything to adjust differences and perceptions? Really?

That's only addressing a perception. If you could tackle the reason why black people aren't gaining as much higher education comparitively, you wouldn't need affirmative action to begin with. The problem is, as soon as you take away affirmative action the problem is still there underneath, because the problem isn't solely one of perception.

[SaintB]

No it doesn't, it doesn't do anything to adjust the differences and perceptions in society that create the problem. Its a band-aid over a bayonet wound.

Black people receiving higher education doesn't address the perception that black people are uneducated? Increased exposure to educated black people doesn't do anything to adjust differences and perceptions? Really?

so, unlike how it goes for every other group, educational attainment isn't intimately tied to economic class among the black population? or are you implying that affirmative action doesn't result in increased educational attainment or career opportunities?

A fundamental change in the way people think and behave is the real underlying reason for the progress. Affirmative action is not and it is entirely plausible that Affirmative Action and the various misunderstandings of it coupled with the frustration and anger it created in certain people actually managed to slow down the progress that has been made.